Swansea to West Wales local services

[PHILIPE]

To run from beyond Cardiff to Portsmouth could only happen if franchising maps were redrawn.

 

[Rhydgaled]

As for the loss of through trains from Cardiff to Pompey, as someone who lives in Bristol I can testify that these services all but empty out on arrival at TM. They're well loaded in and out, but not with the same passengers. Those who do remain on board from S Wales are further thinned out at Bath too. A Swansea-Bath EMU service and a TM-Pompey DMU service is a logical move. It would also allow what S Wales-Pompey line passengers there are easier, same platform changes at Bath rather than having to change at TM.

The Cardiff-Portsmouth probably brings quite a few more places within one change of Cardiff. If it is cut in twain and through trains from S.W.Wales to Cardiff are cut you increase the number of changes needed to get to Havant or Brighton from 2 to four (at Swansea, Cardiff, Bristol/Bath and somewhere between Southampton and Portsmouth) for example.

To run from beyond Cardiff to Portsmouth could only happen if franchising maps were redrawn.

Couldn't it be shared between franchises? Either stock from one company with different staff on each side of Cardiff or run like (I believe) Carlisle - Newcastle (some services are Scotrail others are Northern).

 

[HSTEd]

Or we could just buy a pair of extra HOOP trains, bring in some continental electrification engineers and get to work on wiring the entire network.

Avoiding all these operational concerns with regards to where to chop EMU services.

 

[edwin_m]

The Cardiff-Portsmouth probably brings quite a few more places within one change of Cardiff. If it is cut in twain and through trains from S.W.Wales to Cardiff are cut you increase the number of changes needed to get to Havant or Brighton from 2 to four (at Swansea, Cardiff, Bristol/Bath and somewhere between Southampton and Portsmouth) for example.

An EMU service between Swansea and Bristol/Bath would reduce this back to three by eliminating the change at Cardiff, and may open up more options for changing at Bristol which aren't really practical at present.

 

[tbtc]

The Cardiff-Portsmouth probably brings quite a few more places within one change of Cardiff. If it is cut in twain and through trains from S.W.Wales to Cardiff are cut you increase the number of changes needed to get to Havant or Brighton from 2 to four (at Swansea, Cardiff, Bristol/Bath and somewhere between Southampton and Portsmouth) for example

What demand is there to get from Havant to Fishguard? Seriously?

I doubt that south west Wales will lost *all* services to Cardiff, but its logical that one of the benefits of electrification is to free up a large number of the diesels current used on such routes.

 

[PHILIPE]

I might have some good news for Rhydgaled. From the December Timetable, ATW have made some alterations. Don't hold your breath yet though, as I have yet to confirm. Included is the 07 09 Pembroke Dock to Cardiff (currently booked 158) is retimed to start at 06 59, run earlier throughout and extended to Newport (05 19 ex Salop via HOW to terminate Cardiff) and return working 10 57 Cardiff to Fishguard starting back from Newport at 10 40.
On return, although not shewn on ATWs summary of alterations. the Fishguard Boats terminates at Cardiff Central and the Maesteg follows the normal pattern of running through to Cheltenham. From "Real Time Trains" it would appear that a Set comes off to attach to the rear in Platform then shunt out and back in to Platform 0 to form 16 35 to EbbwVale. This would indicate strengthening and enable a set to be knocked off on it's return and could work 20 17 to Manchester. There should be a 150 available dye to the 15 14 Cardiff to Llanelli Swanline being a through train from Holyhead and 175 worked. This faciliated by Gerallt forming the 17 16 cardiff to Holyhead. Don't forget this is only an assumption at this stage.

 

[anthony263]

Phillip it is confirmed that the 07:09 Pembroke Dock - Cardiff service is retimed to depart at 06:59. It arrives into Swansea at 09:07 and departs at 09:10 calling at all the swanline stations to Bridgend before running fast to Cardiff Central and Newport.

The unit from the Heart of Wales line arrives into Swansea around 09:18 and deaprts for Cardiff at 09:35.

ATW have posted the December timetables on their website with the exception of the the Valey Lines

 

[Rhydgaled]

What demand is there to get from Havant to Fishguard? Seriously?

It isn't just Fishguard to Havant though is it, I didn't even mention Fishguard specifially in that post.

That applies to trips from:

everywhere west of Cardiff (but particularly anywhere that has fewer trains to Cardiff after electrification) that doesn't gain a through service to Bristol​

if going to:

anywhere which can be accessed without a further change of train from any station between Bath and Portsmouth that is called at by the Cardiff-Portsmouth​

Also, I don't think you've answered my earlier question:
Why are you not convinced about my suggestion of 155s/156s west of Swansea? Do you disagree that 155/156 would be suitable or is it that you believe my suggestions are not possible?

 

[tbtc]

It isn't just Fishguard to Havant though is it, I didn't even mention Fishguard specifially in that post.

That applies to trips from:

everywhere west of Cardiff (but particularly anywhere that has fewer trains to Cardiff after electrification) that doesn't gain a through service to Bristol​

if going to:

anywhere which can be accessed without a further change of train from any station between Bath and Portsmouth that is called at by the Cardiff-Portsmouth​

However you dress it up, its a tiny market.

Also, I don't think you've answered my earlier question:
Why are you not convinced about my suggestion of 155s/156s west of Swansea? Do you disagree that 155/156 would be suitable or is it that you believe my suggestions are not possible?

I'm sure they could work the services, its just that I think you've got too hung up on a specific class of unit when we don't know whats going to be spare in a few years time.

Someone could decide that the best place for Pacers would be hidden away from faster heavier trains on busy main lines due to their crashworthiness and turn the (relatively) self contained DMU services west of Swansea (inc HoW) into an all Pacer operation... truth is, we don't know how things will look after electrification.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Someone could decide that the best place for Pacers would be hidden away from faster heavier trains on busy main lines due to their crashworthiness and turn the (relatively) self contained DMU services west of Swansea (inc HoW) into an all Pacer operation...

Possibly. Would they be suitable though? Not with the current interior layout certainly, and with a more spacious layout they probably wouldn't provide enough capacity.

We don't know how things will look after electrification, that doesn't stop us trying to work out what is suitable for what and what may or may not be a good solution.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Possibly. Would they be suitable though? Not with the current interior layout certainly, and with a more spacious layout they probably wouldn't provide enough capacity.

We don't know how things will look after electrification, that doesn't stop us trying to work out what is suitable for what and what may or may not be a good solution.

As I've said before a slef contained fleet of ex FGW Class 158's operating out of Landore for west Wales and HOW is the emerging favoured option. Current thinking is they connect into IEP @ Swansea.

If I was in Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire I would concentrate on retaining peak trains, summer Saturday and boat trains to Cardiff, possibly via SDL, that's the destination where the political will to overcome operational convenience of not running under wires is.

 

[anthony263]

I think a standard fleet of 158's is perfect for west wales given the long distances of the services which the 158's are perfect for. I am sure Network rail could modify the infrastructure along the heart of wales line to accomodate the class 158's. Additional 158's would certainly help provide extra capacity on the Cambrian

However the Welsh Government will need to decide what will work the branches to Blaenau Festiniog as well as the Crewe - Chester shuttles. Perhaps some class 150's being overhauled/retained for these?

 

[PHILIPE]

For those who hate 150s rather than a 158 on the Fishguard Boats should note that it was 142+143 pairing today.

 

[Rhydgaled]

For those who hate 150s rather than a 158 on the Fishguard Boats should note that it was 142+143 pairing today.

150 or double Pacer, hard to say which is worse. Both have 75mph top speed and both have insufficient legroom and few (if any) tables. Pacers seem to waste less space with doors but I guess a 150 probably has more luggage space and more seats than a single Pacer (which I believe I have seen used on the boat train in the past passing through Ferryside).

 

[Rhydgaled]

Well, it is 2014, the Fishguard trial service ends this year. But when exactly? The 3-year trial started in September, but Septemeber, I recently discovered, isn't an 'official' timetable change. So, is the trial actually going to stop at the May or December timetable change, and if not does anyone know the actual date of the end of the trial?

 

[merlodlliw]

Well, it is 2014, the Fishguard trial service ends this year. But when exactly? The 3-year trial started in September, but Septemeber, I recently discovered, isn't an 'official' timetable change. So, is the trial actually going to stop at the May or December timetable change, and if not does anyone know the actual date of the end of the trial?

The next Welsh Assembly elections are held in 2016 an extended year,so the Minister has a year to bury bad news & cull the trial.
However with the cost of rebuilding the station Fishguard & Goodwick, some red faces will have to explain why it was rebuilt for a trial.
Personally I think the trial will be extended, anyone got £1Million spare cash. Wagair contract ends 2015 as does Geralds leased stock

 

[Squaddie]

The next Welsh Assembly elections are held in 2016 an extended year,so the Minister has a year to bury bad news & cull the trial.

However with the cost of rebuilding the station Fishguard & Goodwick, some red faces will have to explain why it was rebuilt for a trial.

Personally I think the trial will be extended

I think this is a classic example of a strawman, Bob - i.e., misrepresent the opponent's position and then attack them for it.

In this instance you are starting with the wholly unfounded assumption that the government wishes to end the trial and then go on to criticise them for it as if it were fact. You then accept that the trial will probably not end, thereby undermining your own argument, which is based on nothing more than political prejudice.

I can't imagine what the (democratically-elected) Welsh Government has done that has upset you so much, as almost every one of your posts exposes your almost irrational hatred for them.

I'm sure one of your "sources", who seem so forthcoming when it comes to leaking sensitive news when it suits your own agenda, must know whether the government is minded to extend the Fishguard trial.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The next Welsh Assembly elections are held in 2016 an extended year,so the Minister has a year to bury bad news & cull the trial.

However with the cost of rebuilding the station Fishguard & Goodwick, some red faces will have to explain why it was rebuilt for a trial.

Personally I think the trial will be extended, anyone got £1Million spare cash. Wagair contract ends 2015 as does Geralds leased stock

Interesting views on the suituation, but it doesn't answer my question of when exactly the trial service ends.

FGW station though was done quite cheaply compared to most other station projects, some fencing, some tarmac (and only part of the possible car park was actually surfaced, to save cash unless it turned out more space was needed), some street lights and three bus shelters. The shelters can presumably be moved elsewhere if the plug is pulled on the rail service and the car park can be used generally.

The street lighting is perhaps a bit excessive but the only completely wasted costs (which in my opinion are wasted anyway, given neither have been used) are renovating the brick shed and building a fake station building (which doesn't do the original justice at all). I think I read somewhere that services weren't actually installed in the buildings initially, again because of a limited budget.

I can't imagine what the (democratically-elected) Welsh Government has done that has upset you so much, as almost every one of your posts exposes your almost irrational hatred for them.

Maybe it is a rational hatred for some Welsh Government policies? I myself am utterly furious with the policy of subsidising aviation, flying in the face of concern about climate change. That policy is illustrated in the form of RAF Valley-Cardiff flights, buying Cardiff Airport and the Cardiff Airport Express TrawsCymru service, which uses three of the high-spec buses orriginally ordered for the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth service (which is probablly the most called for rail reopening in Wales).

I'm sure one of your "sources", who seem so forthcoming when it comes to leaking sensitive news when it suits your own agenda, must know whether the government is minded to extend the Fishguard trial.

Extend the trial? That's an interesting fourth option. I thought it would be a choice of working out a new (permenant) service, back to just boat trains or closing the line altogether. A new permenant service would probably involve consultation, and unless the trial goes to December they probably don't have time to organise one of those. An extension of the trial period, with the same services, would get arround that issue quite nicely.

 

[Squaddie]

Extend the trial? That's an interesting fourth option. I thought it would be a choice of working out a new (permenant) service, back to just boat trains or closing the line altogether. A new permenant service would probably involve consultation, and unless the trial goes to December they probably don't have time to organise one of those. An extension of the trial period, with the same services, would get arround that issue quite nicely.

In the current period of limited budgets and financial stress I think that extending the trial would be a neat political solution that continues to provide a service while avoiding having to commit to long-term expediture.

 

[anthony263]

Maybe perhaps extending the trial for another few years until the new franchise starts in 2018.

Hopefully though when additional rolling stock becomes available perhaps the large gaps between services can be pluged

 

[Rhydgaled]

In the current period of limited budgets and financial stress I think that extending the trial would be a neat political solution that continues to provide a service while avoiding having to commit to long-term expediture.

Yes, that does sound like it might be a likely option.

Shame in a way though if the current service continues as-is as there are some wasteful services in there. For example the morning public-timetable ECS from Clarbeston Road into Fishguard. Also, I think the 08:04 might be a tad late for commuting to Carmarthen (07:53, exactly two hours before the next train at 09:53, might work quite well).

Maybe perhaps extending the trial for another few years until the new franchise starts in 2018.

An extension longer than the original trial service? That to me sounds more like making it a permenant part of the current franchise's commitments.

That would tie up with the comments in the North Pembs. Transport Fourm news briefing I have just received by e-mail though. They claim SWWITCH has published their new rail strategy (though I looked at the SWWITCH website and it doesn't appear to be there), and that a medium term (2018-2023) aim in that strategy is:

Replace current service pattern with a two-hourly service to Fishguard, with all trains operating to / from Swansea. Services timed to connect with the Bristol trains at Swansea. Confirm rolling stock strategy for the service (refurbished Class 150s).

I hope the part about class 150s is not taken forward as I don't consider them appropriate for journeys of over an hour, or limited-stop services.

Also, short-term measures (defined as: "to 2018 to provide consistency with the estimated timescales of electrifying the GWML to Swansea") listed were:

Proposed short term measures of relevance to North Pembrokeshire include:

1. Higher frequencies, faster journey times and good connections to stations east of Swansea;
2. Further growth in rail travel to support the vibrant Swansea Bay City Region economy;
3. Co-ordination of bus and rail services in rural areas;
4. Adoption of a collaborative approach to introduce a fully integrated ticketing system which includes all bus and rail services;
5. Targeted marketing campaigns to promote rail services in the SWWITCH area to ensure that recent patronage growth is continued;
6. Retention of the extra Fishguard trains

(My bold), although item 3 on that list will be a pain with the current rail service, would be better if all trains departed Fishguard Harbour at xx:53 and arrived at xx:27 (both these assuming 20 minute connection time at Fishguard Harbour, allowing for fairly lengthy delays).

Hopefully though when additional rolling stock becomes available perhaps the large gaps between services can be pluged

It probably would only take one extra unit to sort out the big gaps in the Fishguard service, but item 1. on the SWWITCH list above is likely to require a fair amount of extra stock in the lifetime of the current franchise. How do they think that can happen?

 

[PHILIPE]

Your bias against 150s is noted once again. Would you prefer to forfeit services rather than use a 150. THERE IS NOTHING ELSE

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Your bias against 150s is noted once again. Would you prefer to forfeit services rather than use a 150. THERE IS NOTHING ELSE

Oh yes there is.

Lots of lovely Pacers spare in the North West in due course.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Would you prefer to forfeit services rather than use a 150. THERE IS NOTHING ELSE

At the moment there is nothing else, yes, assuming a single 153 doesn't provide enough capacity (which it probably doesn't). So, for now, I'd rather have a 150 than no service.

Hopefully in the new franchise however things could be different. Certainly when the ValleyLines are electrified the franchise should be trying to obtain different sorts of DMU other than 150s.

Anyway, in the shorter term, while we are stuck with 150s, we still don't know when the current Fishguard trial is due to end.

 

[Gareth Marston]

At the moment there is nothing else, yes, assuming a single 153 doesn't provide enough capacity (which it probably doesn't). So, for now, I'd rather have a 150 than no service.

Hopefully in the new franchise however things could be different. Certainly when the ValleyLines are electrified the franchise should be trying to obtain different sorts of DMU other than 150s.

Anyway, in the shorter term, while we are stuck with 150s, we still don't know when the current Fishguard trial is due to end.

September 2014.

A nice one for the Ministers in tray, a decision made weeks before an election by her predecessor from a different party. It was never going to spit out large quantities of new Traveler's due to its deep rural location. Though should this be held against it? Some certainly will. The numbers using it are not going to present an overwhelming case for retention sorry folks. Though cutting it will be controversial and create negative headlines.

Perhaps a morning departure and an evening arrival will be retained and a working party set up to look at the potential for tourist trains.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think any future inward cascade of "better than 150's" might be a tad difficult with the pace of electrification releasing units elsewhere BUT a big catch up to replace 14x fleets , especially in the Northern area , as there is organic growth in other parts of the UK on regional operations which have a better (sorry) payback than rural Pembrokeshire.

 

[D1009]

Well, it is 2014, the Fishguard trial service ends this year. But when exactly? The 3-year trial started in September, but Septemeber, I recently discovered, isn't an 'official' timetable change. So, is the trial actually going to stop at the May or December timetable change, and if not does anyone know the actual date of the end of the trial?

As far as I am aware TOCs can withdraw services like this any time they want, it doesn't have to be an official timetable change date.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think any future inward cascade of "better than 150's" might be a tad difficult with the pace of electrification releasing units elsewhere BUT a big catch up to replace 14x fleets , especially in the Northern area , as there is organic growth in other parts of the UK on regional operations which have a better (sorry) payback than rural Pembrokeshire.

Such as Cambrian mainline, easily the highest growth rural line in Wales. Strong rumour that the Fishguard money was pinched from that for Cambrian hourly anyway. I hate rob Peter to pay Paul but as there was no prioritised and costed rail development plan in Wales, unfortunately other factors intervened.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

As far as I am aware TOCs can withdraw services like this any time they want, it doesn't have to be an official timetable change date.

Not if the train services are contracted , or in the SLC (Service level commitment)

 

[D1009]

Not if the train services are contracted , or in the SLC (Service level commitment)

No, my comment was purely to do with timetable change dates and the relationship between TOCs and NR.