Been given a penalty fare for a valid ticket, what next?

[AshValePsngr]

Hi All,

I've just been given my first penalty fares notice. I'll deliberately withhold details of the ticket unless the board thinks it would be helpful. I was on the return portion of the ticket, returning on a route different to the outward portion. The outward route is easily validated on National Rail, the return route I can't get to appear on the National Rail website.

The disputed route itself I am almost positive is valid (it was given by a board member to another board member and I picked it up, and checked it myself). I was on a train with my ticket, and an Revenue Protection Officer asked for my ticket. I showed him my ticket, and he told me it wasn't valid on the route I took, and showed me a route I could have taken. He also showed me the price of a ticket that covered the journey I was taking and said how could it be valid if that is the price of the valid ticket (my journey was significantly cheaper).

He started writing out a penalty fare for me, and I asked if I could show him why it was valid. I showed him the yellow pages, and the maps, and instructions PDFs I had on my laptop to show why it was valid. I wanted to cross london, but there was no Maltese cross on my ticket. He pounced on this to show why it wasn't valid. I then produced the section below from the instructions

In some instances (particularly long distance cross country journeys) the Manual will show an "any permitted" fare but without the via London, Maltese cross symbol. Reference to Section C (the “yellow pages”) may show via London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted.​

He then reverted to the ticket wasn't valid, but couldn't tell me why. We were then pulling in to the london terminal. I accompanied him to the unpaid fares window, where I explained the situation to one of his colleagues. His colleague seemed to be agreeing that the ticket was valid, then disappeared in to his 'hut' and wouldn't come back out again.

The original RPO then told me the ticket was valid on that route, but only for when trains had broken down or other such instances when the company said it was alright to use that route, but it wasn't valid now.

I clarified that I thought the ticket was valid, but was happy to pay the penalty fare, then appeal it. He told me that if I paid I couldn't appeal (I audio recorded this section of the conversation). So he gave me the Penalty fare, I read it and signed it, and he confiscated my outward portion of the ticket.

Should I just write to the address on the PF with my version of events, why the ticket is valid, and hope that they agree, or is there a better way of doing things?

Thank you for any advice you can give!

 

[northwichcat]

If you can give the type of ticket you had and the exact train you were on then someone on here should be able to verify whether the ticket was in fact valid.

 

[Muzer]

Indeed. If you continue to insist the ticket is valid when it isn't, it could just escalate things. We need to establish first that you haven't overlooked something.

Of course, if the ticket was bought after the NRG change, then the ticket is invalid if you can't get NRE to give you a valid itinerary for it.

 

[Deerfold]

Of course, if the ticket was bought after the NRG change, then the ticket is invalid if you can't get NRE to give you a valid itinerary for it.

There is of course the fact that there seem to have been several changes to NRE since then.

What's pertinent is whether you could get a valid itinery at the time of purchase but given there seems to be no version control on NRE that's hard to prove either way.

There's also some doubt as to whether the requirement to check with the NRE rather than the routing guide is legitimate - Passenger Focus are certainly querying it.

 

[Muzer]

Mmm - but do you want to risk it going to court/being challenged and ATOC winning? Then you'd (presumably) have a much bigger cost to pay than the penalty fare.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Hi All,

I've just been given my first penalty fares notice. I'll deliberately withhold details of the ticket unless the board thinks it would be helpful. I was on the return portion of the ticket, returning on a route different to the outward portion. The outward route is easily validated on National Rail, the return route I can't get to appear on the National Rail website.

I would be more than happy to look at this but to do so will need the details of the ticket and the route taken.

 

[Zoidberg]

Mmm - but do you want to risk it going to court/being challenged and ATOC winning? Then you'd (presumably) have a much bigger cost to pay than the penalty fare.

I thought, from the original post, that the Penalty Fare had been paid. On that basis how could an appeal lead to additional costs?

Or, have I misunderstood?

 

[Muzer]

I thought, from the original post, that the Penalty Fare had been paid. On that basis how could an appeal lead to additional costs?

Or, have I misunderstood?

Ah, apologies, that was me overlooking this. Thanks, you're right.

 

[Deerfold]

I thought, from the original post, that the Penalty Fare had been paid. On that basis how could an appeal lead to additional costs?

Or, have I misunderstood?

Court costs mount up quickly even without the PF being outstanding (if you want a chance of winning).

 

[AshValePsngr]

Thanks for responses, two things to clarify.
I've had two PMs asking for details of the fare. Yorkie is one of those two, and I'm sure he'll give his opinion of whether the ticket is valid or not.
I've not paid the PF as I was told (and have it recorded on my phone) that if I paid, then I couldn't contest the PF afterwards. I was happy to pay, then contest it, but was told this wasn't an option.

 

[Zoidberg]

Court costs mount up quickly even without the PF being outstanding (if you want a chance of winning).

Of course, but I'd assumed that the appeal process would be used to get a yes/no answer rather than the matter being pursued further than that.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks for responses, two things to clarify.
I've had two PMs asking for details of the fare. Yorkie is one of those two, and I'm sure he'll give his opinion of whether the ticket is valid or not.
I've not paid the PF as I was told (and have it recorded on my phone) that if I paid, then I couldn't contest the PF afterwards. I was happy to pay, then contest it, but was told this wasn't an option.

Then I misunderstood the original post - so apologies to Muzer.

 

[Deerfold]

Of course, but I'd assumed that the appeal process would be used to get a yes/no answer rather than the matter being pursued further than that.

I was basing my thoughts on this:

Mmm - but do you want to risk it going to court/being challenged and ATOC winning? Then you'd (presumably) have a much bigger cost to pay than the penalty fare.

 

[Muzer]

Yeah - guessing it would go to court at some stage if (and only if) you won't pay the penalty fare when actually your ticket was invalid. Of course, they could settle out of court. Apologies if my post was misleading.

 

[yorkie]

I have deleted the last post because the advice wasn't really appropriate.

The ticket looks perfectly valid to me, and I'm giving advice to the OP to explore all avenues.

I will lock this thread for now and we'll re-open it when the TOC concerned admits they were wrong.