My idea for East Coast to Carlisle

[ainsworth74]

In all the years i lived in the north east i can honestly say that i never thought, do you know what I fancy a nice trip to Carlisle. York, Newcastle, Leeds even Manchester, even Middlesbrough (really!) but never Carlisle.

Good lord things must have been grim for that to be an option!

 

[DarloRich]

Good lord things must have been grim for that to be an option!

They were but at least it wasn't Hartlepooh thank god!

 

[anti-pacer]

In all the years i lived in the north east i can honestly say that i never thought, do you know what I fancy a nice trip to Carlisle. York, Newcastle, Leeds even Manchester, even Middlesbrough (really!) but never Carlisle.

The only times i went to Carlisle were:

a) When Darlo got beat there (i usually drove)
b) The one time i took my dad on the Settle & Carlisle Railway

The point to service development is that there has to be a market to tap into. There isn't one. Carlisle is a small city that is quite run down and not economically buoyant, there are no sizable population centres between Carlisle and Newcastle and no real business facilities of any size. The area is beautiful, rural and empty.

Having just got back from Carlisle, I would have to disagree that it's run down. Much of the city centre is quite nice, although yes it has it's not so nice parts. It has a castle, a cathedral, a reasonably decent shopping centre, and some nice Georgian buildings.

Every time we've been, there have been plenty of day-trippers on the train (we see them coming back on the same train). I think the ride up there as something to do with it though.

Yes, OK, it's not York, Chester or Durham, but it's hardly Darlington or Wakefield! :roll:

 

[Spaceflower]

(New thread created).

 

[tbtc]

The only way I could see something happening would be if bi-mode IEP encouraged something like a daily extension of a Newcastle - London service to start back at Hexham - given that the Tyne Valley has some "well heeled commuter belt" similarities with Harrogate (which gets a token extension of a London service).

ps: Is it only me who remembers the Arriva Trains Northern service from Carlisle to York via Sunderland and the Durham Coast? A long way on a 156, back in the day...

 

[Spaceflower]

(New thread created).

 

[Moonshot]

Co incidentally , the Transport Select Commitee have invited evidence for an enquiry titled " Passenger Transport in Isolated Communities " It would be interesting to see just what sort of evidence is submitted ( if any ) from areas loosely connected with the Tyne Valley line.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

This is my view on the question:

Improvements to the line could be made without the need for any EC involvement. First priority would be increasing linespeeds, . . . . .

Any improvements in linespeed will benefit thousands of passengers and also the Operators throughout the day, every day.

 

[thetangoman]

I'm on the 1430 kx to Glasgow central. 8 hour trip with this diversion. 30 mins to hook up a 67 at Newcastle to go over to Carlisle. 15 mins to take it off again. Up to Carstairs then across to Edinburgh. Change ends, back to Carstairs then up to Glasgow. Longest trip from London I've ever been on. No more Sunday service as long as I can help it.

 

[northern156]

Having just got back from Carlisle, I would have to disagree that it's run down. Much of the city centre is quite nice, although yes it has it's not so nice parts. It has a castle, a cathedral, a reasonably decent shopping centre, and some nice Georgian buildings.

The City Centre is nice, yeah, but venture even a little bit out into the various estates and it just gets horrible. Currock, Raffles and Harraby for example... eek

Yes there are some lovely parts to it but obviously there's positives and negatives to every city.

there are no sizable population centres between Carlisle and Newcastle and no real business facilities of any size.

I disagree. Hexham (and possibly Prudhoe) are bustling towns with lots of external connections such as buses and you have the MetroCentre which proves very popular for all ages - there is a market. If people went from Carlisle to the MetroCentre they would want to go on something larger and better than a 156, especially on busy Saturday mornings as well as the run-up to Christmas etc. 156s on the Tyne Valley on these days get very full very quickly; longer and more comfortable trains would be handy!

As for journey times there is no way East Coast could compete. Virgin will be so much quicker and for the normal person and have much nicer, newer flashier trains.

If you wanted London from Carlisle why trail all the way to Newcastle? Why not just get the Virgin service?

But surely the majority of people wouldn't go straight from the Cross to Carlisle; they would get the VT service as mentioned. However, from Peterborough northwards, I'm inclined to think that people would avoid London to get to Carlisle - it can/will be less hassle getting tickets (routing restrictions etc) and there's one direct train - go via, say, Birmingham for example and you've got to change numerous times.
Same for Doncaster/York/Darlington/Durham.
The real let-down in my eyes is the line speed though - that would be a prime factor for getting people off the roads and on the rails.

 

[Moonshot]

I'm on the 1430 kx to Glasgow central. 8 hour trip with this diversion. 30 mins to hook up a 67 at Newcastle to go over to Carlisle. 15 mins to take it off again. Up to Carstairs then across to Edinburgh. Change ends, back to Carstairs then up to Glasgow. Longest trip from London I've ever been on. No more Sunday service as long as I can help it.

I would have thought that Euston to Glasgow would have been the more sensible option today !!

 

[ainsworth74]

This is my view on the question:

Any improvements in linespeed will benefit thousands of passengers and also the Operators throughout the day, every day.

Agreed forget talk of improved services until something's been done about the line itself.

 

[thetangoman]

I would have thought that Euston to Glasgow would have been the more sensible option today !!

Agreed. But free rewards tickets. . beggars can't be choosers.

 

[Moonshot]

Agreed. But free rewards tickets. . beggars can't be choosers.

Which reminds me of the times when I use to collect Air Miles and redeem them on the Heathrow Shuttles......with no restrictions!!

 

[DarloRich]

I disagree. Hexham (and possibly Prudhoe) are bustling towns with lots of external connections such as buses and you have the MetroCentre which proves very popular for all ages - there is a market. If people went from Carlisle to the MetroCentre they would want to go on something larger and better than a 156, especially on busy Saturday mornings as well as the run-up to Christmas etc. 156s on the Tyne Valley on these days get very full very quickly; longer and more comfortable trains would be handy!

Are you being serious? If you took every man women and child from Hexham and Prudhoe you wouldn't fill Sid James Park! I doubt there are 35000 people between the two places. As for the metro centre - well i can think of better ways to use a 8/9 carriage train than one return trip in the 4 weeks before Christmas!

Middlesbrough, for instance, is a town of over 300k people. They have no direct train to London. I would rather use the HST set there!

But surely the majority of people wouldn't go straight from the Cross to Carlisle; they would get the VT service as mentioned. However, from Peterborough northwards, I'm inclined to think that people would avoid London to get to Carlisle - it can/will be less hassle getting tickets (routing restrictions etc) and there's one direct train - go via, say, Birmingham for example and you've got to change numerous times.
Same for Doncaster/York/Darlington/Durham.
The real let-down in my eyes is the line speed though - that would be a prime factor for getting people off the roads and on the rails.

I will have to disagree with you on that point. I do not believe, for one moment, there is anything like the market required to make a success of this proposed service.

 

[Anvil1984]

The main problem with Newcastle - Carlisle is the absolute block and amount of foot crossings en route (Bardon Mill has a long running TSR of 20MPH because of the crossing there, also quite slow around Dunston for Norwood Junction.

if you wished to increase capacity / speed then you would probably have to look at adding an extra platform at Metrocentre and a crossover prior to Hexham coming from Newcastle as to do so at present involves a quite lengthy shunt. Also you may want somewhere to loop freights as they isn't really anywhere in the 60 miles

Newcastle to Carlisle off peak is not that busy at all, the passenger load fits quite comfortably on a 142 never mind a 156 but I'd take a 156 any day due to amount of bikes / luggage which appears. At present a 156 is perfect for the route, maybe a 158 in future if any should become available but even that cant handle as many bikes (important to this route as a lot of people go in groups in the summer Newcastle to Workington to cycle back on the coast to coast). In School Holidays and the run up to Christmas it can be busy though but this isn't helped by Northern still doing Advance tickets on the route on trains are full and standing without them

Getting a HST for Carlisle to Newcastle isn't going to work as the platforms can't handle the trains and don't have SDO. initially I thought it was a non stop service but now Hexham, Prudhoe and Metrocentre have been mentioned which wont take more than 4/5 coaches.

The priority in my opinion would be to raise linespeed to 75mph throughout, may 80 - 90 in parts in the future but until faster DMUs become available its not that urgent. Then (as per most Northern routes aims) eradicate the 142s, I'd do this by swapping the 142s for 156s as the NW electrification, it'd still allow services in NW to be doubled up but also allow Heaton to have a uniform fleet and more seats so everyone wins.

Something to MAYBE look at is the interworking of the Scotrail services, should there be more Newcastle - Dumfries services instead of separate Newcastle - Carlisle and Carlisle to Dumfries Shuttles and the timetable could be tweaked as it is quite odd in places. No pattern to semi fast / slow services. Haydon Bridge should really get an hourly service in my opinion

 

[thenorthern]

I still think extending the Skipton trains is the best option, years ago I think GNER proposed having a train use the Skipton to Carnforth line, doubt anyone would now.

 

[Carlisle]

I still think extending the Skipton trains is the best option, years ago I think GNER proposed having a train use the Skipton to Carnforth line, doubt anyone would now.

I agree ,any kind of open competition planned in the early privitisation era has now given way to the strict idea of managed capacity by the all powerfull DFT rightly or wrongly

 

[Moonshot]

I agree ,any kind of open competition planned in the early privitisation era has now given way to the strict idea of managed capacity by the all powerfull DFT rightly or wrongly

This is very true, and in fact rail franchises are more akin to PFI contracts as opposed to mechanisms which allow unrestricted free enterprise. This is no suprise considering that rail investment and some 50% of the fare base are government controlled.

Having followed the various TSC enquiries over the last 2 years or so, a key finding which so far has recieved little attention was the identification of a piece of work that needs doing which looks at just how efficiently we use the network as a whole. This is difficult, as a significant part of demand which causes issues of overcrowding is in the short periods of high peak activity during the working day. Clearly there is more to this than just tweaking timetables and rolling stock activity etc....

 

[Aictos]

Is there any point in extending the Nottingham to Leeds services to Carlisle at all on a 2 hourly basis so fits between the existing Leeds to Carlisle service if the paths and rolling stock are there?

 

[dzug2]

Getting a HST for Carlisle to Newcastle isn't going to work as the platforms can't handle the trains and don't have SDO. initially I thought it was a non stop service but now Hexham, Prudhoe and Metrocentre have been mentioned which wont take more than 4/5 coaches.

HSTs do have SDO - at least the FGW ones do. Can't speak for the others
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Carlisle itself though isn't that big and it has better links that larger towns such as Telford.

Cue for 'my idea for a fast direct service between Carlisle and Telford' ????

 

[Tomnick]

Is there any point in extending the Nottingham to Leeds services to Carlisle at all on a 2 hourly basis so fits between the existing Leeds to Carlisle service if the paths and rolling stock are there?

Seems a more realistic prospect than the Carlisle HST, though perhaps combining Notts - Leeds and Leeds - Carlisle services (especially the faster one - 0947 ex-Leeds? - that used to run through to Glasgow) would be more workable given the ever-present shortage of units and relatively small market.

 

[Anvil1984]

HSTs do have SDO - at least the FGW ones do. Can't speak for the others
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Cue for 'my idea for a fast direct service between Carlisle and Telford' ????

FGW and XC retrofitted it. EC definately dont have SDO on their sets

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is a fact that Carlisle does not have an attractive link to either the North East or York, and I would be surprised if one was provided, that it would not be well supported.

People in the north Lakes tend to gravitate towards Glasgow or Edinburgh for their nearest "big city", and people from the south Lakes tend to gravitate towards Manchester. Whilst many in the north Lakes would also go to Newcastle, York would not really be on the radar.

The Tyne Valley Line is busy on the peak flows to and from Newcastle, but during the rest of the day the line tends to be quiet. So quiet, in fact, that Northern have introduced Advance tickets for £4 each way to try and encourage more off-peak usage. The daytime trains stop only at Haltwhistle, Hexham and the MetroCentre and do the journey in about 1h20. IMHO they should also stop at Haydon Bridge, which normally generates a big crowd on the 685 service bus, but they don't. The hourly Northern service is perfectly sufficient for the market.

Many people do drive, but that's because they're already in their cars having come from places like Caldbeck or Keswick. The A69 is slower than the train- if you can average 50mph on the single carriageway section you're doing well- but people drive because it's easier than trying to park at Carlisle station. Carlisle city itself is small and impoverished and always has been.

a crossover prior to Hexham coming from Newcastle as to do so at present involves a quite lengthy shunt

There's no need for shunting, the westbound platform at Hexham is bi-directional with a crossover to the east of the station. The shunt in the morning is only required to get the 2x142s out of the way of the following Newcastle to Glasgow train. During the day the Hexham "shorts" arrive and depart from the westbound platform.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ps: Is it only me who remembers the Arriva Trains Northern service from Carlisle to York via Sunderland and the Durham Coast? A long way on a 156, back in the day...

Even longer on a 142, which is what it was usually booked for!

 

[Anvil1984]

People in the north Lakes tend to gravitate towards Glasgow or Edinburgh for their nearest "big city", and people from the south Lakes tend to gravitate towards Manchester. Whilst many in the north Lakes would also go to Newcastle, York would not really be on the radar.

The Tyne Valley Line is busy on the peak flows to and from Newcastle, but during the rest of the day the line tends to be quiet. So quiet, in fact, that Northern have introduced Advance tickets for £4 each way to try and encourage more off-peak usage. The daytime trains stop only at Haltwhistle, Hexham and the MetroCentre and do the journey in about 1h20. IMHO they should also stop at Haydon Bridge, which normally generates a big crowd on the 685 service bus, but they don't. The hourly Northern service is perfectly sufficient for the market.

Many people do drive, but that's because they're already in their cars having come from places like Caldbeck or Keswick. The A69 is slower than the train- if you can average 50mph on the single carriageway section you're doing well- but people drive because it's easier than trying to park at Carlisle station. Carlisle city itself is small and impoverished and always has been.



There's no need for shunting, the westbound platform at Hexham is bi-directional with a crossover to the east of the station. The shunt in the morning is only required to get the 2x142s out of the way of the following Newcastle to Glasgow train. During the day the Hexham "shorts" arrive and depart from the westbound platform.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Even longer on a 142, which is what it was usually booked for!

I am aware of the service allocations and shunting arrangements at Hexham as I work on the services. There is an evening service from Morpeth (technically a Morpeth to Newcastle and a Newcastle to Hexham service) which goes into the sidings at the other side which requires a longer shunt. This is along with more ad hoc shunts should there be a late freight and they want us on the other side. Theres also often confusion at Hexham who dont look at the screens and automatically go to the eastbound platform to watch the train go from the other side. The reason I suggested the crossover is because people are talking about extra services

 

[SeanG]

Not a good idea.
Namely as it means that the Tyne Valley diversions will no longer be able to justify a train trip as they will not be out of the ordinary.

One idea though, how about extending the Newcastle terminators somewhere.
Obviously it will require extra stock/infrastructure but ECcoulddo with Hexham what they do with Harrogate/Skipton

 

[D6975]

Not a good idea.
Namely as it means that the Tyne Valley diversions will no longer be able to justify a train trip as they will not be out of the ordinary.

One idea though, how about extending the Newcastle terminators somewhere.
Obviously it will require extra stock/infrastructure but ECcoulddo with Hexham what they do with Harrogate/Skipton

Sunderland perhaps?

GC would be pleased with that one..

 

[Deerfold]

Is there any point in extending the Nottingham to Leeds services to Carlisle at all on a 2 hourly basis so fits between the existing Leeds to Carlisle service if the paths and rolling stock are there?

There's a distinct lack of paths due to the very slow freight in the area. Annoyingly.

Where there are paths between them there's usually a Morecambe service in it.

I still think extending the Skipton trains is the best option, years ago I think GNER proposed having a train use the Skipton to Carnforth line, doubt anyone would now.

Now that would annoy the people who've recently upgraded the electrics so we can finally have a 225 running up and down our line.

 

[thenorthern]

Nottingham to Carlisle on a Class 158 does seem a long journey.

 

[Spaceflower]

But Nottingham or Leeds to Carlisle on a spare HST set might just pay for itself?

It's a famous route known worldwide. The current operating stock certainly can't be doing much for this image. What proportion of trips on this route are leisure based I wonder......and how much can the local economy be developed by utilizing appropriate stock for the market? If and when HS2 gets to Leeds, this lines market will get alot closer.

Hell, even the windows open on a HST.....