My idea for East Coast to Carlisle

[northern156]

Hi all, I was just wondering now the East Coast HSTs are on diversion through the Tyne Valley through to Carlisle and then up to Edniburgh...
What would the benefits and/or chances of East Coast introducing a once/twice daily return journey from London to Carlisle via ECML to Newcastle and then along the Tyne Valley?

It would be best to be non-stop I imagine due to platform lengths along the route (possibly barring Hexham?) plus it would give people a direct, non-stop link between the two cities.
It is just that the likes of Skipton, Harrogate, Hull etc have their own once/twice-daily East Coast trains - why not Carlisle?
If it is proved successful, it could possibly be upgraded to something like 1tph or 1tp2h like Aberdeen/Inverness.

After the trains terminate/before they originate at Carlisle, they could be stored in one of the through roads especially if it is late at night. That, or they could go ECS (or even in service) to Glasgow or Edinburgh (then on to Polmadie or Craigentinny).

Is this a sensible idea or am I just imagining the impossible?

Sean

 

[ainsworth74]

What would be the purpose? Carlisle already has a good service to London and a good service to Newcastle.

 

[northern156]

It would be a great link for people wanting a nice, fast train with First Class (no 142s or 156s) from Carlisle to Newcastle. Also if someone is travelling to, say, York to/from Carlisle it would be much faster than going to Leeds and up the S&C.

 

[Moonshot]

Wouldnt be wortwhile - from a passenger perspective, Carlisle to London is already a WCML service which I would presume is the quickest way anyway.

 

[ainsworth74]

Considering that the Newcastle - Carlisle market is pretty small and I imagine the York - Carlisle market even smaller I still don't see the point. This sounds an awful lot like drawing a line between two places and saying 'this place needs a better service!'.

Why? What market is there? Is there even any demand?

If there really is a demand for an upmarket service between Newcastle and Carlisle it would make more sense to procure DMUs to run the service rather than using an HST. But personally I think there are far more important flows an areas to deal with than upgrading an already reasonable service.

 

[northern156]

It is a WCML service which, yes, would be a lot quicker. However I'm not on about people going straight through from London; other places such as York or Doncaster. People wanting to get home quicker from Newcastle as well perhaps than going on a unit.

Considering that the Newcastle - Carlisle market is pretty small and I imagine the York - Carlisle market even smaller I still don't see the point. This sounds an awful lot like drawing a line between two places and saying 'this place needs a better service!'.

Why? What market is there? Is there even any demand?

If there really is a demand for an upmarket service between Newcastle and Carlisle it would make more sense to procure DMUs to run the service rather than using an HST. But personally I think there are far more important flows an areas to deal with than upgrading an already reasonable service.

I do understand that, however was there any demand for London to Skipton or Harrogate for example, where you just got off one of the frequent trains from London and another frequent train (bearing in mind Tyne Valley is only 1tph) to your destination?

 

[ainsworth74]

The market for Carlisle - York/Doncaster will be tiny...

 

[Moonshot]

Ainsworth is correct.....and I would add the point that Network Rail have refused other applications for services that on paper would seem far more sensible. With the network full in certain key areas, any new service would invariably involve a trade off with something else.

 

[Eagle]

The market for Carlisle - York/Doncaster will be tiny...

Tiny enough that it would make sense to do it (if it made sense at all, which it doesn't) with a Northern 156, I reckon.

 

[The Citadel]

Nottingham-Glasgow services would be better.

 

[Manchester77]

On a semi related note, there was an article in a magazine about a possible Kings Cross to Manchester Piccadilly via Leeds service. I'd imagine this would be better than a KGX to Carlisle service since it would have the opportunity to relief pressure off TPE services as well as the EMT Norwich to Liverpool service whereas this proposed KGX to Carlisle service doesn't really do that and can be seen as a waste of stock

 

[Eagle]

On a semi related note, there was an article in a magazine about a possible Kings Cross to Manchester Piccadilly via Leeds service.

As well, that would be giving London services to places in West Yorkshire (Dewsbury and Huddersfield at least) that don't already have them—as Grand Central have shown, there is a market there.

 

[Moonshot]

On a semi related note, there was an article in a magazine about a possible Kings Cross to Manchester Piccadilly via Leeds service. I'd imagine this would be better than a KGX to Carlisle service since it would have the opportunity to relief pressure off TPE services as well as the EMT Norwich to Liverpool service whereas this proposed KGX to Carlisle service doesn't really do that and can be seen as a waste of stock

I would have thought that the current Northern Hub plans which involve putting wires up between Manchester and Leeds plus the increase to 6 tph would do that anyway.

One idea that seems to have re surfaced is the re opening of the old Grand Central route instead of the HS2 plans ..... that one would seem to have some merit

 

[thenorthern]

I think if the London to Skipton train was extended to Carlisle would work better, running an HST to Newcastle then onto Carlisle seems a bit pointless, if the line speed was raised and there were 2 trains running it per day I think it could work.

Didn't Virgin CrossCountry once run a train that used the Carlisle to Newcastle line.

 

[Eagle]

One idea that seems to have re surfaced is the re opening of the old Grand Central route instead of the HS2 plans .....

Assuming you mean Great Central rather than Grand Central, a lot of the southern section of HS2 will be on the old GCR mainline.
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Didn't Virgin CrossCountry once run a train that used the Carlisle to Newcastle line.

Not that I'm aware of (apart from possibly during engineering).

 

[Moonshot]

Assuming you mean Great Central rather than Grand Central, a lot of the southern section of HS2 will be on the old GCR mainline.

Sorry .....yes !!!

 

[northern156]

Didn't Virgin CrossCountry once run a train that used the Carlisle to Newcastle line.

No, although as Eagle said they diverted two trains per day on every ECML diversion day. It normally was 2x 220/221.

 

[swt_passenger]

Assuming you mean Great Central rather than Grand Central, a lot of the southern section of HS2 will be on the old GCR mainline.

No it won't, and that's becoming a bit of a 'railway myth'. The maps on DfT's site have always clearly shown that only a very small minority of the route is on the former GC route.

Even on the relatively short section through Bucks north of Quainton Rd, (less than 10 miles), where it is on roughly the same alignment, all the curves are eased.

 

[thenorthern]

Not that I'm aware of (apart from possibly during engineering).

I think it was until 2003/2004 time and was about 7ish in the evening. I don't think there was any point in running the service and it was rather a novelty.

 

[Manchester77]

As well, that would be giving London services to places in West Yorkshire (Dewsbury and Huddersfield at least) that don't already have them—as Grand Central have shown, there is a market there.

I would have thought that the current Northern Hub plans which involve putting wires up between Manchester and Leeds plus the increase to 6 tph would do that anyway.

Its not just about TPE as I said it would open up more travel opportunities as well as giving more places a direct London service as well as reduce overcrowding on EMT with people going from southern ECML stops to Manchester

 

[Moonshot]

Its not just about TPE as I said it would open up more travel opportunities as well as giving more places a direct London service as well as reduce overcrowding on EMT with people going from southern ECML stops to Manchester

Tbh, the only new " opportunities " that will appear will be ones that are attractive to open access operators. There is no appetite for government to subsidise any new ones. If a new service can stand on its own 2 feet then great, but I dont see a rush of entrants to the market.

 

[43074]

Hi all, I was just wondering now the East Coast HSTs are on diversion through the Tyne Valley through to Carlisle and then up to Edniburgh...
What would the benefits and/or chances of East Coast introducing a once/twice daily return journey from London to Carlisle via ECML to Newcastle and then along the Tyne Valley?

No chance, with few benefits. East Coast are already short of stock at the moment so I struggle to see why they would waste one of their 'precious' HSTs on such a service. The future of the Aberdeen/Inverness services have more than once been questioned on that basis (by the Scottish Parliament on one occasion and it was an idea mentioned in an article in 'Modern Railways' a few months back), but the services have a secure future with IEP. Virgin's hourly Glasgow service takes 2 and a half hours, so a 1tpd East Coast service taking somewhere in the region of 4 hours would not be competitive anyway.

It would be best to be non-stop I imagine due to platform lengths along the route (possibly barring Hexham?) plus it would give people a direct, non-stop link between the two cities.
It is just that the likes of Skipton, Harrogate, Hull etc have their own once/twice-daily East Coast trains - why not Carlisle?
If it is proved successful, it could possibly be upgraded to something like 1tph or 1tp2h like Aberdeen/Inverness.

A service like you are suggesting would not be operated at times when people would actually need a direct link between Newcastle and Carlisle - it would be operated as an extension to very early or very late services between Newcastle and Kings Cross, especially as there are no more avaliable paths to do otherwise on the ECML. Also Carlisle is not on the main East Coast route, but well served on the West Coast. Hull, Skipton etc. are effectively branches off the ECML so trains can be operated relatively easily, albeit with long ECS moves to start the diagrams.
EC only operate 1tpd to Inverness and 4 return journeys to Aberdeen (1 to Leeds and 3 to Kings Cross) because there isn't capacity in the fleet to do otherwise.

What about traincrew? Would they taxi back to ECs nearest traincrew depot 60 miles away or stay in an expensive hotel overnight and return the following morning? It's all about ££££. Do EC Drivers and TMs sign Newcastle to Carlisle?

 

[142094]

Do EC Drivers and TMs sign Newcastle to Carlisle?

Of course, seeing as they are using the route this weekend.

Improvements to the line could be made without the need for any EC involvement. First priority would be increasing linespeeds, to make it more attractive to car drivers. 60 miles in 1 and a half hours is not a great advert.

 

[Condor7]

Tiny enough that it would make sense to do it (if it made sense at all, which it doesn't) with a Northern 156, I reckon.

The practicality of running a HST between Carlisle and Newcastle and further south raises many issues as have been highlighted in this thread already and some such as stock availability I can't argue with, however to say that the market is tiny I would dispute.

There is an ever growing business market, and it has been shown time and time again that when better quality trains and a better service are put on the market makes use of them.

Business men and women in Carlisle who will almost certainly already have nice cars, will use them rather than a class 156 stopping at every station.

It is a fact that Carlisle does not have an attractive link to either the North East or York, and I would be surprised if one was provided, that it would not be well supported.

 

[thenorthern]

It is a fact that Carlisle does not have an attractive link to either the North East or York, and I would be surprised if one was provided, that it would not be well supported.

Carlisle itself though isn't that big and it has better links that larger towns such as Telford.

 

[DarloRich]

fantasist cloud cuckoo landism strikes again :roll:

1) No market
2) No £££££ in it for anyone
3) No Stock
4) No point

You can do Carlisle to York in 2 hours door to door via the A66, A1 & A64 - if the A64 is kind! - i know as i have done it often enough. Always quicker on the way back after the inevitable defeat!

Carlisle to Newcastle is just over an hour on a good day by car. Leeds to Carlisle is 2.5 hrs ish depending on your route

I also doubt there is that much of a market for these kind of services. Why trundle along to Newcastle then turn south when the Virgin train will have you a decent way south before the East Coast train even TURNS south!
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It is a fact that Carlisle does not have an attractive link to either the North East or York, and I would be surprised if one was provided, that it would not be well supported.

Build it and they will come? You will need a bit more than that for a business case :roll:

I am more than happy to support sensible proposals for better services to the north east. This isn't one of them.

 

[Condor7]

Build it and they will come? You will need a bit more than that for a business case :roll:

I am more than happy to support sensible proposals for better services to the north east. This isn't one of them.

I was not trying to make a business case as such, as mentioned I realise the problems putting on a HST just for this service may be impractical.

I was just showing the opposing view from those who say equally without any backing that there is "no market".

Having been a business man all my life, I know as much as anyone that the 'Build it and they will come' attitude is largely doomed to failure, however in the current rail market, better trains and faster services seems a winning formula in an every increasing railway market.

Maybe a HST, maybe a Voyager, maybe a class 185.
Remembering that it is not just people wanting to travel from Carlisle but equally those in the North East wanting to come to Carlisle.

 

[northern156]

Last year I noticed quite a lot of people going from Carlisle down south with East Coast when the diversions were on. Yes, especially with the relatively low speed limits leading to the whole route taking longer than the car but I really do think it could at least take people off the roads and on to the rails should it become faster.
If it was up and running and I was going to travel most/all of the distance across to Newcastle and beyond, I could bet that most people would aim to get the HST... it's 'one of those fast trains to London innit'

Remembering that it is not just people wanting to travel from Carlisle but equally those in the North East wanting to come to Carlisle.

Now THAT market is going to be very small... what a horrid place

 

[Aictos]

Now bearing in mind I'm not too familiar with these services but could extending the Nottingham to Leeds services though to Carlisle using 158s work with the existing stock on the S & C working between Nottingham and Sheffield via Leeds?

Could perhaps Northern extend a Nottingham to Leeds service to Carlisle every 2 hours so it fits between existing services so there's a direct link between the MML at Nottingham and Carlisle on the WCML, would this be better then a fantasy non starter?

Just wondering if it was feasible that's all, remember I'm not too familiar with the services so I'm guessing here.

 

[DarloRich]

I was not trying to make a business case as such, as mentioned I realise the problems putting on a HST just for this service may be impractical.

I was just showing the opposing view from those who say equally without any backing that there is "no market".

Having been a business man all my life, I know as much as anyone that the 'Build it and they will come' attitude is largely doomed to failure, however in the current rail market, better trains and faster services seems a winning formula in an every increasing railway market.

Maybe a HST, maybe a Voyager, maybe a class 185.
Remembering that it is not just people wanting to travel from Carlisle but equally those in the North East wanting to come to Carlisle.

In all the years i lived in the north east i can honestly say that i never thought, do you know what I fancy a nice trip to Carlisle. York, Newcastle, Leeds even Manchester, even Middlesbrough (really!) but never Carlisle.

The only times i went to Carlisle were:

a) When Darlo got beat there (i usually drove)
b) The one time i took my dad on the Settle & Carlisle Railway

The point to service development is that there has to be a market to tap into. There isn't one. Carlisle is a small city that is quite run down and not economically buoyant, there are no sizable population centres between Carlisle and Newcastle and no real business facilities of any size. The area is beautiful, rural and empty.

As for journey times there is no way East Coast could compete. Virgin will be so much quicker and for the normal person and have much nicer, newer flashier trains.

If you wanted London from Carlisle why trail all the way to Newcastle? Why not just get the Virgin service?
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Last year I noticed quite a lot of people going from Carlisle down south with East Coast when the diversions were on. Yes, especially with the relatively low speed limits leading to the whole route taking longer than the car but I really do think it could at least take people off the roads and on to the rails should it become faster.
If it was up and running and I was going to travel most/all of the distance across to Newcastle and beyond, I could bet that most people would aim to get the HST... it's 'one of those fast trains to London innit'

Most of them will have been spotters - same this year.

The key point is that Virgin will be quicker. For normals that will win every time.