Task force to speed up Norwich-London route

[YorkshireBear]

For me at least (a mainly weekend traveller between London and Ipswich), having trains which ran later into the evening/night would be far more useful than just getting there ten minutes faster.
I suspect it'd be easier to implement as well.

Depends, i think the GEML needs a fair bit of overnight maintenance.

 

[87015]

Depends, i think the GEML needs a fair bit of overnight maintenance.

Very few overnight blocks (two track closures to Shenfield and bi-di working excepted) apart from Saturday nights due to freight traffic. Can't close up shop with a raft of liners that need to move...

 

[MarkyT]

Whilst its always good to look at shaving off some journey time on any route, it can be counterproductive to push for these somewhat arbitrary headline targets such as '90 minutes to Norwich' or 'under 3 hours to Plymouth'. Such slogans might be very popular with business groups in the particular cities concerned, but the economics and utility of the routes often rely heavily on serving a number of places along the route. If for example local stops between Ipswich and Norwich were abolished to achieve 90 minutes, then lucrative London commuter business from those rural outposts as well as useful local transport links could be sacrificed, or would have to substituted by additional (possibly less attractive) local trains at additional operating expense and for which track capacity may not exist. There's clearly no guarantee that the additional trunk haul business attracted by the reduced express journey time would pay for the additional operating expense or indeed investment in rolling stock and infrastructure required.

 

[andrew bell]

I am not sure how practical it will be but can't they expand the bridge at Trowse to help speed up the times as (I think) its single tracked over it

 

[dk1]

I am not sure how practical it will be but can't they expand the bridge at Trowse to help speed up the times as (I think) its single tracked over it

You will not get above 40mph due to line curvature either side. Used to be 15

 

[AndyLandy]

In My personal opinion, The Liverpool Street -Norwich LHCS services could be replaced by 5 Car 110mph EMU. Doubling the EMU's to create a 10 car in the peaks unless current service provision needs full Mk.3 sets throughout the day, then 10 car EMU's (Class 444 type) could be used.

Step 1: AC version of the 444.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: All railway problems are solved!

Sorry, couldn't resist, but AC 444s seem to frequently come up as a suggestion to solve just about anything. (Of course, the GEML is one place where they probably actually make reasonable sense)

 

[Martin222002]

One interesting question is do all the services (per hour) between Norwich and London need to have a journey time of 90 minutes? If not then really only 1tph needs to be that fast, with 2 other tph calling at a similar pattern as they do now, and not necessarily with a 20 minute frequency. Something along the lines of:

1tph Norwich, Ipswich, Colchester, London Liverpool Street
1tph Norwich, Diss, Ipswich, Manningtree, Colchester, London Liverpool Street
1tph Norwich, Diss, Stowmarket, Ipswich, Manningtree, Colchester, Chelmsford, Stratford, London Liverpool Street

Obviously pathing permitting.

 

[MarkyT]

Another thing you could do is just stop everything at Stratford and say 'that's London' for propaganda sorry marketing purposes. It would save 7 minutes with no effort at all! I think all trains should stop at certain major London approach 'gateway hubs' anyway, for instance SWT expresses at Clapham Junction, HS2 AND GWML at Old Oak if it ever gets built.

 

[306024]

That has been tried already with Tottenham Hale, just 35 minutes from London to Stansted Airport. It didn't go down well.

 

[GB]

Thats not a real suggestion is it?

 

[306024]

One interesting question is do all the services (per hour) between Norwich and London need to have a journey time of 90 minutes? If not then really only 1tph needs to be that fast, with 2 other tph calling at a similar pattern as they do now, and not necessarily with a 20 minute frequency. Something along the lines of:

1tph Norwich, Ipswich, Colchester, London Liverpool Street
1tph Norwich, Diss, Ipswich, Manningtree, Colchester, London Liverpool Street
1tph Norwich, Diss, Stowmarket, Ipswich, Manningtree, Colchester, Chelmsford, Stratford, London Liverpool Street

Obviously pathing permitting.

Good luck in finding a gap for that

To answer your question, no, but even if you could path your fast train, that's four extra unit diagrams, plus a maintenance spare. Add running costs and you would need a hell of a good business case.

 

[JGR]

Another thing you could do is just stop everything at Stratford and say 'that's London' for propaganda sorry marketing purposes. It would save 7 minutes with no effort at all! I think all trains should stop at certain major London approach 'gateway hubs' anyway, for instance SWT expresses at Clapham Junction, HS2 AND GWML at Old Oak if it ever gets built.

I expect you'd soon run out of platforms terminating trains at Stratford.

 

[Tobbes]

One interesting question is do all the services (per hour) between Norwich and London need to have a journey time of 90 minutes?

No. But as you say, to be effective it does need to available all day, rather than an up/down "East Anglian" once a day, each way.

1tph Norwich, Ipswich, Colchester, London Liverpool Street
1tph Norwich, Diss, Ipswich, Manningtree, Colchester, London Liverpool Street
1tph Norwich, Diss, Stowmarket, Ipswich, Manningtree, Colchester, Chelmsford, Stratford, London Liverpool Street

This is a good spread for Norwich, but does Norwich need 3 tph off peak? Wouldn't the intermediate stations be better served by extending the Ipswich terminators as all-stations to Norwich? This would include Needham and opening something between Diss and Norwich (though I don't know the most cost-effective alternative). Yaxley would be a candidate too....

Obviously pathing permitting.

Fair enough, but how many GEML paths will open up south of Ipswich when the Bacon Factory chord opens?

Tobbes

 

[Trainfan344]

Yes, but what about paths between Stowmarket and Ipswich, not forgetting that GA may want to introduce hourly Ipswich to Peterborough eventually.

 

[Bald Rick]

Fair enough, but how many GEML paths will open up south of Ipswich when the Bacon Factory chord opens?

Few to none.

 

[dk1]

Yes, but what about paths between Stowmarket and Ipswich, not forgetting that GA may want to introduce hourly Ipswich to Peterborough eventually.

Signalling Ipswich-Haughley isn't really fit for purpose now. Really needs spacing to be reduced & 4 aspect signalling. The longer sections & Needham Market Station in between along with poor sighting have a negative affect on performance. When resignalled in the 80s it had nothing like the frequency of passenger & Liner trains it has now but did have more in the way of ad-hoc freight & light engine moves.

 

[Tobbes]

Few to none.

Why? Is this just to handle increased traffic from Felixstowe? I thought the whole point was to take Midlands-bound traffic via Haugley and Ely, thereby releasing paths on GEML and on the NLL for the traffic from London Gateway.

Confused,

Tobbes

 

[GB]

The vast majority of London bound intermodals will remain as they are now...particularly AC traffic.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why? Is this just to handle increased traffic from Felixstowe?

Yes...

 

[Tobbes]

GB / Bald Rick

Many thanks for this. What would be required to re-route the intermodals to the Midlands away from London?

 

[GB]

I would say electrification of the Haughley to Peterborough route (as well as what ever route is required to get back to the WCML) resginalling and junction improvements at Haughley Jnc.

 

[Aictos]

I would say electrification of the Haughley to Peterborough route (as well as what ever route is required to get back to the WCML) resginalling and junction improvements at Haughley Jnc.

If you electrified the Peterborough to Birmingham route it would enable the XC Birmingham to Stansted service to go over to EMU operation as a bonus

BUT if you're going to wire up that route why not at the same time wire up the Joint Line and allow more AC freight to get to Doncaster that way via Lincoln....

 

[tom1681]

I am not sure how practical it will be but can't they expand the bridge at Trowse to help speed up the times as (I think) its single tracked over it

Double tracking Trowse Bridge is one of the suggestions - to improve capacity more than anything though.

 

[MarkyT]

I expect you'd soon run out of platforms terminating trains at Stratford.

I wasn't suggesting terminating at Stratford, just adding a stop there for those trains that don't call already.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Double tracking Trowse Bridge is one of the suggestions - to improve capacity more than anything though.

The short double track between Trowse bridge and Norwich station is only just long enough to stand a full length train, and a down train easing up to wait for a platform at the home signal can block the single line completely or for longer than is desirable. Doubling over the bridge and relocating some of the junction pointwork to the London side would improve flexibility a great deal.

 

[Johnny_w]

I am not a commuter!

Gotta be honest....and a regular GEML traveller (stowmarket), goes anyone actually care?

Serious question. I can't even imagine Norwich → LST commuters would give two monkies about an extra ten mins a day?

Whilst I accept that 10mins x 500 journeys = lots of minutes it's not like they get used in such a way is it?

Just a thought.

JW

 

[HowardGWR]

I am not a commuter!

Gotta be honest....and a regular GEML traveller (stowmarket), goes anyone actually care?

Serious question. I can't even imagine Norwich → LST commuters would give two monkies about an extra ten mins a day?

Whilst I accept that 10mins x 500 journeys = lots of minutes it's not like they get used in such a way is it?

Just a thought. JW

I thought it was just a political stunt according to the Railway Eye Blog

http://railwayeye.blogspot.co.uk/2013_11_07_archive.html

This from Norfolk Broads...

Absolutely no panic in the Tory party about vulnerable seats in East Anglia.

No siree, none at all.

So what are we to make of this then?

According to this press release from the Treasury:

Chancellor George Osborne has announced a new taskforce to look at speeding up journey times to East Anglia to drive growth in the region.

Plans for a new expert group charged with finding ways to speed up rail services to the East of England by as much as 25% have been set out by the Chancellor.

The new taskforce will be made up of Department for Transport officials, experts from Network Rail, and local MPs.

Evidently not content with presiding over the most complicated railway structure in the world our Chancellor has decided to abandon boring old things like Route Utilisation Strategies, Control Periods, Statement of Funds Available, etc... etc..., instead he will improve our network by fiat!

Move over ORR, franchise bidders and RDG your skills are not needed, for we have SuperGideon and 'local MPs' to the rescue!

It's not as if our Chancellor has anything else important to do, what with a record deficit and all!

 

[Bald Rick]

GB / Bald Rick

Many thanks for this. What would be required to re-route the intermodals to the Midlands away from London?

If you mean all Felixstowe - Midlands / NW traffic, then at least:

Ely - Soham doubling, Ely North LX abolishing and replaced with bypass, Ely-Peterboro' resignalling for higher capacity, Oakham LX abolishing (possibly), Leicester remodelling, grade separation at Wigston (possibly).

And then maybe electrification.

 

[Tomnick]

First time I've seen the abolition of Oakham LC proposed - not sure there's any realistic prospect of a bridge directly replacing it...and is it really that much of a problem?

 

[Bald Rick]

First time I've seen the abolition of Oakham LC proposed - not sure there's any realistic prospect of a bridge directly replacing it...and is it really that much of a problem?

Well it is only a 'possibly'. But it is a problem, especially if you live in Oakham and were to have an extra 50 trains a day across it.

Also, I forgot Kings Dyke LC just east of Peterboro'. That would probably have to go.

 

[Tomnick]

Would that be 50 in total, or per direction? An extra one or two each way per hour might upset the locals a bit, but those in a rush are more than welcome to make their way out to the bypass overbridge . It can get a bit chaotic, admittedly, if the traffic doesn't have time to clear before the barriers are lowered for the next one.