Stan Drews
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Presumably these same people are put off shopping because they can't go into Asda and use their Tesco Clubcard?
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big operators selling their own tickets: is this a problem elsewhere?
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Presumably these same people are put off shopping because they can't go into Asda and use their Tesco Clubcard?
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tbtc
Veteran Member
At the moment there's a choice of buying a £5.40 Metro ticket (all operators, county wide) or a local First ticket (couple of quid cheaper).
Getting rid of the cheaper ticket to avoid "confusing" people certainly isn't going to make things far cheaper!
Hardly the same, people tend to stay loyal to a certain supermarket as its their favourite nothing to do with loyalty cards, that's an invention to snoop on peoples shopping habits. If your stood at a bus stop and its dark, raining and blowing a gale you just want to get on a bus whether its run by First, Yorkshire Tiger or any of the other companies we have in WY, being loyal to a certain bus operator or letting a bus go by because they won't accept your ticket seems pretty counter productive for the whole business and for yourself. Is it any wonder bus patronage is declining and Metro are wanting to introduce QC's? Deregulation has over egged what should be a simple daily occurrence and fragmented the industry, one things for sure it hasn't really improved competition or benefited the passenger.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Yes.
And to help such clever individuals, maybe Asda and Tesco should stop selling their "own brand" products and force people to buy the expensive "full price" brands?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
By the same token, if its dark, raining and blowing a gale, you'll go into the closest shop for the pint of milk that you need (whether you can get Nectar Points or not)
Some people on here are so pedantic......granted, you would regarding the milk, you're right, but I was talking more of a weekly shop.
When catching a bus, surely, most people want to get on the first bus that comes and gets them to where they want to go with minimum of fuss and without having to wade trough a morass of different fares/tickets, that might or might not be valid on all services that stop at their stop.Most bus passengers do not spend their time looking at the Metro website studying fares and tickets or on here picking up tips, people just want to turn up and go with a ticket that's simple to buy and they know what they will be able to do with it. Surely for simplicities sake, things could be addressed? If the WY ticket was dropped in price to make it more competitive with other day tickets, then maybe it'd be a lot simpler.
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dvboy
Established Member
If I asked for an nBus and an NX Daysaver was printed I'd ask the driver to re-issue it.
I think the problem is less rare here and we have the problems Mojo described above because we have one dominant operator, so most people buy their tickets rather than the nBus anyway.
I think the problem is less rare here and we have the problems Mojo described above because we have one dominant operator, so most people buy their tickets rather than the nBus anyway.
NorthernSpirit
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Exactly, this is why I'd rather see one day ticket being issued - the MetroDay irregardless of whatever bus turns up, as it'll be the case of MetroDay, single or a return, the latter being made available again.
I've used buses in West Sussex and none of the smaller independents sell their own day tickets but their is a countywide day ticket called the Explorer which is around £7.80 but you can go anywhere in Sussex and parts of Surrey and for the £7.80 you pay its bloody good value.
This is a point I hadn't thought of: in WY people buy a first day because returns have never (historically) been available in WY.
I suspect that if they were, then people would ask for a return, and would be less likely to chance their day ticket on other ops.
Also, having a return available may placate those on here who like the first day.
Eagle
Established Member
And what about in places where there is no interavailable ticket (springs to mind: Bournemouth, where you have two competing bus companies with their own separate tickets)?
AndyLandy
Established Member
I do wonder if something as simple as making the names clearer and ridding the world of bizarre marketroid-invented names for operator-specific tickets might actually be a big help here.
tbtc
Veteran Member
To put things in context for those outside West Yorkshire, sample fares for "day tickets" valid in First services are available here:
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/leeds/tickets/firstday/
Many routes have no competition on them, so no alternative bus company to wait for, so little incentive for someone to pay for an "all operator" ticket.
At the moment, people have the choice of a £5.40 ticket (valid on everything) or something cheaper (only valid on one operator).
If they were that bothered about boarding the first service to arrive then they can pay the premium for the better ticket.
Why should those on cheaper tickets (who have factored in the potential extra time at a bus stop against the saving of a pound or two each day) be forced to pay more?
Surely having a return that is only valid on one company is going to still confuse the "dumb" passengers who are unaware of whether they are buying a £3.90 ticket instead of a £5.40 ticket?
(if we take the "people don't know or care about different operators, they just want to board the first bus that comes" argument)
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/leeds/tickets/firstday/
Many routes have no competition on them, so no alternative bus company to wait for, so little incentive for someone to pay for an "all operator" ticket.
At the moment, people have the choice of a £5.40 ticket (valid on everything) or something cheaper (only valid on one operator).
If they were that bothered about boarding the first service to arrive then they can pay the premium for the better ticket.
Why should those on cheaper tickets (who have factored in the potential extra time at a bus stop against the saving of a pound or two each day) be forced to pay more?
Surely having a return that is only valid on one company is going to still confuse the "dumb" passengers who are unaware of whether they are buying a £3.90 ticket instead of a £5.40 ticket?
(if we take the "people don't know or care about different operators, they just want to board the first bus that comes" argument)
You don't have talk some guff, most routes in the Huddersfield area are served by more than one operator
Wakefield Road-Yorkshire Tiger and First
Huddersfield Royal Infirmary-K-Line, Yorkshire Tiger, Stotts and First
Golcar-K-Line and First
Halifax via Outlane 537 interchange with First and Yorkshire Tiger
Wakefield-Yorkshire Tiger during the day and First at night,Sunday Arriva
Fartown/Birkby-First,K-Line and Stotts
Almondbury-First and Yorkshire Tiger,K-Line
Newsome-First and K-Line
Then we have Arriva who operate all along the Leeds Road corridor through to Mirfield, Dewsbury, Heckmondwike, Hartshead, Cleckheaton.
So not much competition, there are probably other routes too that have multi operators.
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tbtc
Veteran Member
Take a look at the link that I posted.
It was for Leeds.
Most services in Leeds have only one operator, so there's no competition on them so there's little incentive for people to pay an extra £1.50 or so to travel on buses that are of no interest to them.
But thanks for the snappy reaction.
Maybe
Crossgates and Garforth: first and arriva
To wetherby: first and transdev
To alwoodley: first and transdev
University corridor: first, geldards and tiger
Leeds-Otley: first and tiger
Guiseley-otley: first, TLC and connexions
Otley-ilkley: first and connexions
Otley-Pool: connexions, TLC and tiger
Pool-airport: TLC and tiger
Leeds-kirkstall: first, tiger and transdev (with interavailable ticket acceptance)
Leeds-shipley: first, transdev and tiger
Leeds-morley: first, arriva
Dewsbury road: first, arriva
Middleton: first, arriva
Leeds-xscape: arriva and stagecoach
Etc etc.
Day tickets have grown in popularity because operators like them because it ties you to that operator. It is little to do with giving the passenger a good deal. That is why single fares have gone up so much more than day tickets. All operator day tickets are really a token effort to pretend that there is some kind of integrated transport network. Day tickets also prolong the undesirable situation of everyone paying the driver in cash, making bus journeys even more tedious than they need to be.
I barely know all the fare options on buses around here, let alone elsewhere. It seems so complicated to an outsider that I'd sooner take a taxi or walk than use buses in most towns around the UK I'm not familiar with.
Imagine if London had different types of Travelcard and bus operator specific rovers?
But I do get why the bus operators favour their own rovers over ones that have revenue shared around. I just think it makes things far too complicated for many people.
Imagine if London had different types of Travelcard and bus operator specific rovers?
But I do get why the bus operators favour their own rovers over ones that have revenue shared around. I just think it makes things far too complicated for many people.
bb21
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What really makes things complicated are how often the names (and validities) of the tickets change.
I used to really like the First West Yorkshire one as it had validity throughout Greater Manchester. Then this was dropped. Now they've improved them so that you can use either on buses that start or finish in the PTE area throughout that route.
Despite this First never allowed its area tickets to be used into North Yorkshire (which I suspect contributed to the demise of its 653 and the massive cutbacks on the X84/784 services which are no longer feasible to use for commuters north of Ilkley). Until now when suddenly they're valid on the X84.
But we've had Daysaves, Firstdays - then in Leeds there were the GreenSavers only valid on central Leeds routes.
Transdev have for years kept it simple with its K-day. It was even allowed to be used on Burnley and Pendle between Skipton and Grassington when B&P took over that service. Until suddenly it wasn't. Oh, and then it wasn't valid on the 784/884 services either - a new rather more expensive ticket was needed for that.
Then there was the First bus driver who berated me for asking for a Bus Dayrover when his ticket machine only had a MetroDay - about a week before the publicity for the name change started (and longer before it officiall changed).
It's no wonder passengers get confused - and that's without being in an unfamiliar area.
I feel confident about getting a train in just about any part of the UK. You know the score, so besides having to get around an unfamiliar station and get to the right platform, it's all quite easy - even post privatisation.
But buses? Wow! It's quite scary to think of going to another town or city, and especially a smaller town or village, and using buses. Besides there being no standard for a bus stop sign, or timetabling, or getting real time information, you can't know the fares, what tickets are available or even what operators run what - until you look at the timetables.
Some councils do better than others, but if I step off a train, am I that prepared? Have I downloaded the specific app (and in the case of Herts County Council, the app is charged for!) to plan ahead? Can I see all the routes and operators in advance?
Perhaps I can, but I wouldn't know where to look a lot of the time.. and what about buses that cross county council borders? Or operators that have their own zones, which don't correlate to another?
That's why I get taxis or walk. Bus operators lose out because I'd rather not have the hassle.
Perhaps I'm just spoilt because of using buses in London, but that's the way it should be everywhere in my opinion. And smartcards should be accepted everywhere, and automatically distribute the money to each operator without me having to care.
I might then enjoy a daily price cap, but the system would still split the money fairly based on the total number of tap-ins in a set period.
Rovers could then be done away with completely, and I'd never need to worry about having the right change when I don't even know the fare!
But buses? Wow! It's quite scary to think of going to another town or city, and especially a smaller town or village, and using buses. Besides there being no standard for a bus stop sign, or timetabling, or getting real time information, you can't know the fares, what tickets are available or even what operators run what - until you look at the timetables.
Some councils do better than others, but if I step off a train, am I that prepared? Have I downloaded the specific app (and in the case of Herts County Council, the app is charged for!) to plan ahead? Can I see all the routes and operators in advance?
Perhaps I can, but I wouldn't know where to look a lot of the time.. and what about buses that cross county council borders? Or operators that have their own zones, which don't correlate to another?
That's why I get taxis or walk. Bus operators lose out because I'd rather not have the hassle.
Perhaps I'm just spoilt because of using buses in London, but that's the way it should be everywhere in my opinion. And smartcards should be accepted everywhere, and automatically distribute the money to each operator without me having to care.
I might then enjoy a daily price cap, but the system would still split the money fairly based on the total number of tap-ins in a set period.
Rovers could then be done away with completely, and I'd never need to worry about having the right change when I don't even know the fare!
AndyLandy
Established Member
Quoted for Truth
Not so long back I had to use London buses to get around some line closures in the Stoke Newington area. I was genuinely surprised at how well they work, clearly signposted bus stops, route maps telling you how to get where you need to go, and on-board PIS systems so you know when you're there.
Bus services anywhere else aren't even close. Even here in Southampton, where I live, I'm always twitchy about getting the bus to somewhere I've not been before, since I don't know where the stop is, or when to get off. I wouldn't even think about trying to use a bus service in another city (with the exception of London)
But ask me to get a train somewhere, anywhere in the country, and it's a piece of cake.
martinsh
Established Member
Eh ? You'd rather everyone paid single fares and bought tickets EVERY time they travelled rather than just the first journey of the day ?!
WillPS
Established Member
The lack of fare information is one thing, but I could never say I've been afraid of using an unfamiliar bus network. At the end of the day, most Bus Stop signs have the standard graphic of a bus and street view will prepare you if you're not sure where you're getting off/on.
Yes, Street View or Google Maps probably makes it a bit easier than it once was, but you still need to know the route a bus goes ideally.
With the fees for London, it's as easy as downloading a free app. My Herts County Council app costs a few quid (maybe more, can't remember) and doesn't let me easily see a route or anything clever like that.
With the fees for London, it's as easy as downloading a free app. My Herts County Council app costs a few quid (maybe more, can't remember) and doesn't let me easily see a route or anything clever like that.
Unless you've extensively researched the bus network where your heading it can be confusing and uncertain. I travel to a lot of football games all round England watching my team and I use the train solely, sometimes it involves catching buses to grounds from train stations or city/town centres. I've caught buses in Bristol,Doncaster and other places and found it ok, but if your unsure it can be confusing and you'd probably end up just getting a taxi.
No, I would prefer people not to pay in cash on the bus at all. Most places use smartcards, tickets purchased from shops or bus stop ticket machines.
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
There is no problem with operators selling day tickets just for their buses. That's very useful for people who know they only want to use one operator. In the North East the Stagecoach-only ticket in Newcastle is nearly three quid cheaper than the any-operator Day Rover ticket. So far so good.
The problem comes when someone isn't clear about the product they're buying, or where the operator branded ticket sounds suspiciously similar to the any-operator day ticket. A Stagecoach DayRider is very different to a DayRover, but try and explain the difference to most lay people and their eyes will glaze over.
Best practice would be for the bus driver to clarify what ticket someone wants, especially when they use a generic term like "day ticket" which neither applies to the operator-specific nor the all-operator branded ticket. It wouldn't be hard, Wetherspoon's bar staff manage it when you order "a coke"; they're able to correct you to "Pepsi" in a flash.
In West Yorkshire, I suspect it simply comes down to poor practice from the drivers. They're quick to clarify when you ask for a FirstDay, as there are different types of ticket, so I'm unsure why they're less quick when you're asking for a generic day ticket. I can only assume it comes from their management.
The problem comes when someone isn't clear about the product they're buying, or where the operator branded ticket sounds suspiciously similar to the any-operator day ticket. A Stagecoach DayRider is very different to a DayRover, but try and explain the difference to most lay people and their eyes will glaze over.
Best practice would be for the bus driver to clarify what ticket someone wants, especially when they use a generic term like "day ticket" which neither applies to the operator-specific nor the all-operator branded ticket. It wouldn't be hard, Wetherspoon's bar staff manage it when you order "a coke"; they're able to correct you to "Pepsi" in a flash.
In West Yorkshire, I suspect it simply comes down to poor practice from the drivers. They're quick to clarify when you ask for a FirstDay, as there are different types of ticket, so I'm unsure why they're less quick when you're asking for a generic day ticket. I can only assume it comes from their management.
martinsh
Established Member
Most places ?! Give me some examples !
Depends how you define places.
Of 5.1 billion bus journeys a year in the UK, 2.3 billion are in London - 98% of which are prepaid, so that's 44% of journeys before you add anywhere else.
Pretty much anywhere in Europe outside the UK and Ireland.
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