I'm not sure of the logic of that if you don't know what the employer is paying.
How about if working on the train means I need to spend less time in the office?
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Travelling first class on a standard ticket
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I'm not sure of the logic of that if you don't know what the employer is paying.
How about if working on the train means I need to spend less time in the office?
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R
RailUK Forums
I ignored that rather offensive comment.
I've often chosen to work on a train, as it's ideal to prepare for the meeting/event you're travelling too, or write up the event you've just been at while going back to the office etc.
Freelancers, consultants and the like would also benefit, and the list goes on. Why assume first class is only for going to and from work, as against travelling for work?
That said, I don't need to go first class myself to be able to do what I need - but the decision to work on the train doesn't mean I'm crap at my job. He might have a point about the pay though!
I've often chosen to work on a train, as it's ideal to prepare for the meeting/event you're travelling too, or write up the event you've just been at while going back to the office etc.
Freelancers, consultants and the like would also benefit, and the list goes on. Why assume first class is only for going to and from work, as against travelling for work?
That said, I don't need to go first class myself to be able to do what I need - but the decision to work on the train doesn't mean I'm crap at my job. He might have a point about the pay though!
nlogax
Established Member
What a weird thing to say.
I work on the railway and have to use the train to get to/from all my stations and maybe back to the office if I am lucky to try and do other work - but if I cant then how do I do my work without doing it on the train? I'd rather not stay at work a moment longer then I have to so I work on the train eithier going to or from my home.
Its simpler. But hey, my employer certainly doesnt pay me enough so I'm going to sit down with the exec next week and demand a large pay rise.
I do hope you dont mind paying for it through an increase in your fare.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
I'm not entirely sure what your point is?
I don't earn enough money to buy a house in Kensington, or a Ferrari, but it doesn't mean I can go sit in somebody else's.
First Class is not for "moneyed elite", but it generally does cost more than standard class. I'm not sure what relevance this has to anything though?
fowler9 said:
What an astoundingly stupid thing to say.
Not least because if I'm travelling for work, my employer is paying me to sit there. They'd expect something for their money, they're not paying me to stare out of the window daydreaming.
First isn't always more expensive than standard, especially if the cheap tranche of standard advance tickets have been sold out. For example, travelling from London to Manchester tomorrow morning, the cheapest standard advance ticket on the 06:36, 09:00 and 09:20 trains is £67, whereas in first class it is £65.
More generally, a first advance return can be cheaper than a standard off peak return (eg. London to Bournemouth £36 first advance or £49.20 standard off peak) although you do lose the flexibility to travel on any train.
Regarding the debate about working on trains, I think it is employers who seem to expect their employees to be in contact 24/7, regardless of their contracted hours.
More generally, a first advance return can be cheaper than a standard off peak return (eg. London to Bournemouth £36 first advance or £49.20 standard off peak) although you do lose the flexibility to travel on any train.
Regarding the debate about working on trains, I think it is employers who seem to expect their employees to be in contact 24/7, regardless of their contracted hours.
It was rather and I do apologise to anyone I offended. I fully retract the statement, it was in fact gibberish.
No offence taken from me. I kind of knew where you were coming from but it was worded a bit strangely.
P.S. Can I still have that pay rise?
No offence taken from me. I kind of knew where you were coming from but it was worded a bit strangely.
P.S. Can I still have that pay rise?
Well it would be harsh on train crews for a start, they have to work on the train. Ha ha. Although I'm sure they wouldn't mind a pay rise.
Apologies again though, I'd had a pint or two to celebrate my birthday and it came out wrong. As a relatively new member of the forum I wouldn't want anyone to think I am just always spouting crazy statements.
Legislators should set an example. Osborne didn't.
I wouldnt worry, there are plenty of regular posters who do the same - me included
But welcome all the same.--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You may be right BUT if his flunky had purchased the tickets and told him they were in first class what would you expect him to do? Just accept it, as he appears to have done, or say no, we sit in standard anyway - even if they had bought first.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
I don't know if the aide bought the wrong tickets- I suspect not, as first class tickets cannot be claimed on expenses- but the aide definitely did try the whole "do you know who I am?" spiel to avoid having to pay the first class upgrade fee. At no stage did Osborne enter a standard class carriage.
Aides do this all the time, especially private secretaries, the difference this time was that a journalist overheard the conversation.
Osborne only paid the upgrade fee when the guard made it quite clear that he didn't care who he was, that is the fare. Good on the guard. Don't for one second think this upgrade fee was paid willingly.
I wouldn't want to say how I know this, but I didn't get this information from the papers, but it that way.
Aides do this all the time, especially private secretaries, the difference this time was that a journalist overheard the conversation.
Osborne only paid the upgrade fee when the guard made it quite clear that he didn't care who he was, that is the fare. Good on the guard. Don't for one second think this upgrade fee was paid willingly.
I wouldn't want to say how I know this, but I didn't get this information from the papers, but it that way.
I am not sure I ever read exactly word for word what the aide said, and fear it could have easily been embellished or exaggerated, just as we saw with the police report on what Andrew Mitchell said. Maybe it wasn't, but who knows? Of course if you have some extra insider knowledge that was never revealed, then I have to accept you might know more - but I still haven't seen any text that shows it word for word.
The issue, like plebgate, is that people will believe the version of events that suits their own view - and that's always dangerous (but such is politics). I prefer to say that I don't know what was said and keep an open mind.
Wasn't it the case that they had standard class tickets and travelled earlier, and presumably standard was full (or much busier) and no longer had seat reservations.
I really don't see an issue with trying to talk someone into giving a free upgrade, as plenty of people do that - from all 'classes'. We're always being told to haggle on things, although the 'don't you know who I am?' bit is always likely to result in the risk of someone saying, 'no, who are you?' or similar.
What's more, if there was any desire to do any work, I can see why a chancellor that isn't exactly popular might struggle to get anything done if standing up around a lot of people who aren't exactly his number one fans.
As much as you might imagine him saying he wouldn't dare mix with people in standard (although having standard tickets sort of contradicts that), it seems just as many people would look at him and tell him to bugger off into first class with the other toffs...
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I always travel first class. I prefer the peace and quiet you tend to get in first, plus the extra space and the fact that you are almost certain to get a seat. Not only that, but the configuration of the seats, with tables for 1, 2 or 4, means that you or your group can nearly always get your private space and not have to sit with strangers. The complimentary drinks and meals are a bonus.
Having said that, all my journeys are leisure so all my tickets are advances bought weeks ahead, and I think are very good value. If I had to pay walk up fares, no way would I use first class.
Having said that, all my journeys are leisure so all my tickets are advances bought weeks ahead, and I think are very good value. If I had to pay walk up fares, no way would I use first class.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to assert 2-3% was true for all first class services, but it certainly is for XC services leaving Oxford on a Sunday evening. Most of my gripes are specific to that service because I don't know anything of the conditions in others.
The struggle is simply they couldn't afford it. Certainly not on benefits (using my £40 per trip for the upgrade, that's what, almost a week of benefits?), and doing so on minimum wage would be a struggle given that as you note, the benefit probably doesn't really warrant it if you're earning that little. Which was my counterpoint to the "anyone can do it".
Hehe. Nice try. During my last journey (Sunday) I was with the rest of the hoi-polloi and I took the opportunity to count. Upon leaving Oxford there were a minimum of 15 people in the disabled-toilet aisle/vesible with me at the front of the train. There were precisely 15 people when we left Banbury when I did a re-count. I could see people in the aisle the other side of the door too (not counted). So yes, I was being conservative with my "20 people standing" number.
You are aware you just compared two things that are rather obviously things for the "moneyed elite" (Kensington and Ferraris), with a first class fare while also asserting said fare isn't just for those types? Seems quite ironic.
My point was someone had claimed anyone could can travel in first. Obviously they can't if they're poor, just like they can't afford those same ferraris/houses. I'm not saying people should be allowed to sit in First Class if they're meant to be in steerage, but I'm leaning towards the fact it shouldn't be there on services like the given XC.
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On the issue of Osborne - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...lass-and-24-claim-for-club-class-flights.html - There are 184 others, so it's not just him if you'll forgive the fact I'm linking to the Torygraph. And those are folks earning £65k a year!
I agree. I shall be taking a Peterborough to Oakham sector next Saturday and the scheduled travel time is 29 minutes. A STD off peak day single comes in at GBP 11.40 and anytime GBP 15.80.
1ST on the other hand is priced at GBP 33.50, more than double the STD anytime and nearly three times the STD off peak.
I will happily pay GBP 11.40 + GBP 5.00 Weekend 1ST for this short sector, but during the week I would probably content myself with STD.
Butts
Veteran Member
In my experience that's unusual, do you know what the journey was ?
So I have never been in 1st class when it was full!
Thanks for clearing that up because I thought I had several times. :roll:
Oh I was in possesion of 1st class tickets at the time bought with my own money, scum class was rammed!
That's a bit of a sweeping generalisation. There is a world of difference between first class on a commuter service and on a long distance operator.
This is extremely rare. I have only seen it happen a few (i.e. two or three) times in sixteen years of travelling on the route. On each occasion the conductor announced that all rail staff travellers should relinquish their seats.
It seems to happen when there is a cancellation of a nearby train and ticket restrictions are lifted for passengers on the cancelled service.
One particularly memorable time was back in 2001 when I took the 18:30 GNER from King's Cross to Newcastle on a Friday. I was sat in the dining car and we pulled out of the station. Meal ordered and glass of wine in hand we stopped perhaps five minutes later at one of the commuter stations outside London.
Apparently the 18:20 GNER from King's Cross to Edinburgh stood broken down at the station ahead of us. We proceeded to that station (opposite platform) and all the passengers boarded. Now 18:20 and 18:30 on a Friday night are peak times and both trains would have had full 1ST compartments. There were plenty of unlucky people standing all the way to York.
I felt extremely lucky to be tucking into my dinner in the dining car that night!
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I honestly don't think its that sweeping. Have a look at first class on a plane compared to economy, then look at first class on the train compared to standard. If you are paying full price for your ticket you really aren't getting much more for your money than and emptier carriage and some free food.
I am not convinced that the plane vs. train argument is valid in this case.
Longhaul First and Business Class plane seats are designed for journeys taking between six and twenty hours, often involving significant changes in time zones and overnight travel. The ability to sleep is paramount and the seat reflects this. The fares are typically GBP 2k - GBP 12k return against GBP 500 - GBP 2k in economy.
"Longhaul" 1ST train seats on the other hand are designed for journeys taking between one and four hours inside normal waking hours. The fares are typically GBP 40 - GBP 400 return against GBP 20 - GBP 200 in STD.
A more valid comparison is, I think, shorthaul Business Class. BA's Club Europe product, operated on journeys between one and four hours in length just like a train journey, offers approximately 20" seat width and 38" pitch. Quite similar to a standard 1-2 configuration 1ST seat.
In the case of 1ST against STD I find that the 1-2 configuration is vastly superior to 2-2 and well worth paying the extra for. There is just so much more personal space, especially if you are on the '1' side.
But the prices to go up in a plane are so much more.
I was looking at a flight to las vegas advertised in the Metro the other day.
Return flights (booked via a cheap flight broker)
Econ £386
Prem Econ £598
Business £1500
But a first class ticket from Seaford to Manchester, buy on day of travel
SOR £388
FOR £588
So price wise, looking at diff between Economy and Premuim Economy, which on a plane gives you a slightly larger seat, bit more leg room and not much else.
First class on this journey by train:
Bigger seat and more comfy
Food and drinks
More space to work
Less busy
Access to lounge.
So outside of commuter first, you do get a lot more for your first class with a price increase less than you would pay on a plane. And as for flights within Europe, business class prices are sometimes more than twice the price, or more and you dont get that much extra.
SJ
Tickets to Manchester from South coast are always good for a laugh as the SOR's and FOR's are just silly money. costs about the same to go to Inverness.
I was looking at a flight to las vegas advertised in the Metro the other day.
Return flights (booked via a cheap flight broker)
Econ £386
Prem Econ £598
Business £1500
But a first class ticket from Seaford to Manchester, buy on day of travel
SOR £388
FOR £588
So price wise, looking at diff between Economy and Premuim Economy, which on a plane gives you a slightly larger seat, bit more leg room and not much else.
First class on this journey by train:
Bigger seat and more comfy
Food and drinks
More space to work
Less busy
Access to lounge.
So outside of commuter first, you do get a lot more for your first class with a price increase less than you would pay on a plane. And as for flights within Europe, business class prices are sometimes more than twice the price, or more and you dont get that much extra.
SJ
Tickets to Manchester from South coast are always good for a laugh as the SOR's and FOR's are just silly money. costs about the same to go to Inverness.
I hold my hands up, that is a very good point. I wasn't really comparing eggs with eggs there.
Flamingo
Established Member
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The point I always make about First Class to people complaining about the price of it is that the journey may be compulsory, sitting in First Class is optional.
Not strictly true. I know some civil servants who can claim First Class travel for journeys over 2.5 hours, provided that they 'need to work' on the journey. It is also allowed to purchase First Advance tickets if cheaper than Standard on the same train, often the case when travelling at peak times.
Has this changed back? My wife used to be a civil servant until 2 years ago and found it frustrating that she wasnt allowed to buy 1st advances which were a fraction of the price of walk up STD tickets bought by colleagues who didn't plan as well as she did (attending the same pre-planned meetings).
She wasn't even allowed to buy them them when they were cheaper then STD.
Back in the private sector she was told she was free to buy whatever ticket she wanted so long as the cost was lower than a STD anytime return.
It hasn't changed, at least in the Dept I work in. MPs on the other hand are allowed to buy 1st advance if they are cheaper than Standard anytime....we're all in this together!!!
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