big operators selling their own tickets: is this a problem elsewhere?

[34D]

Here in Yorkshire we (the smaller bus operators) have a real problem caused by drivers of First/Arriva selling passengers their own daytickets, in preference to the £5.40 Metro Day.

Is this a problem elsewhere in the country?

What can be done?

 

[Eagle]

Is this a problem elsewhere in the country?

Well in most of the country interavailable bus tickets don't even exist (apart from Plusbus).

 

[ess]

Could Metro be given the authority to ban them?

 

[tbtc]

Go on then, I'll bite...

...why is this a problem?

If the passenger has the choice of a cheaper operator-specific ticket or a more expensive "county wide" ticket, why should they be limited to the latter?

Why should I be expected to pay £5.40 if I only want to use one operator?

 

[martinsh]

Go on then, I'll bite...

...why is this a problem?

If the passenger has the choice of a cheaper operator-specific ticket or a more expensive "county wide" ticket, why should they be limited to the latter?

Why should I be expected to pay £5.40 if I only want to use one operator?

Im guessing it's a problem because the passenger asks for a "Metro Day" ticket, but gets sold a First / Arriva one instead. I used to have that problem with First / Stagecoach in Greater Manchester.

 

[northwichcat]

Before I knew about the System One DaySaver tickets I had a problem with a First Manchester driver saying that no return was available for the journey I was making (when I asked if there were returns available) and said I needed to purchase 2 x singles. A single was 70p less than a System One DaySaver. I saw this advertised on the bus about 2 minutes after he had sold me a single!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Im guessing it's a problem because the passenger asks for a "Metro Day" ticket, but gets sold a First / Arriva one instead. I used to have that problem with First / Stagecoach in Greater Manchester.

Isn't that the same issue of going into a newsagents, asking for a packet of cigarettes and being given a chocolate bar? Ask for a Metro Day Ticket and that's what you should get. Mind you, you can buy from First both a Swansea and a Swansea Bay day ticket. Now that's confusing

Another example I can think of is Arriva, Stagecoach and Go Ahead all selling their own tickets in the North East, yet the Explorer ticket is valid on all three plus a number of other operators and the Metro/Shields Ferry/Sunderland rail.

 

[tbtc]

Im guessing it's a problem because the passenger asks for a "Metro Day" ticket, but gets sold a First / Arriva one instead. I used to have that problem with First / Stagecoach in Greater Manchester.

That's an issue, but that's a driver training issue.

In terms of day tickets here in Sheffield I have a choice of a ticket specific to my local route (valid on both Stagecoach and First), a Sheffield-wide First ticket, a Sheffield-wide Stagecoach ticket, a Sheffield-wide combined ticket (valid on TM Travel etc too), a county-wide version of the First ticket, a county-wide version of the Stagecoach ticket, a county-wide version valid on all operators... plus weekly/ monthly versions of many of those.

But then the alternative is to take away a lot of that choice and force passengers to pay more than they currently need to (not everyone needs county-wide travel).

 

[harry42]

Here in Nottingham, ALL operators entering Nottingham City Boundary on a normal service must give the option of a kangaroo ticket which allows unlimited travel on all services within the boundary. The 2 big operators, City Transport and Trent Barton all do this well.

 

[AndyHudds]

Here in Yorkshire we (the smaller bus operators) have a real problem caused by drivers of First/Arriva selling passengers their own daytickets, in preference to the £5.40 Metro Day.

Is this a problem elsewhere in the country?

What can be done?

Hopefully things might improve when the smart ticket is rolled out in West Yorkshire, but it won't stop operators selling their own products. First have introduced a £12 weekly ticket in Huddersfield but it doesn't really get you far. I have a Metro Card as I was sick off buses flying past me because I had a First only ticket. It is a big problem on routes served by more than operator, people just want to get on a bus, especially when its dark, raining and blowing a gale.

 

[robertclark125]

It's like supermarkets selling their own branded stuff. There doesn't seem to be an issue there, so why should operators be stopped selling their own ticket? And incidentally, why can't the smaller firms sell their own saver tickets as well?

 

[Greenback]

Isn't that the same issue of going into a newsagents, asking for a packet of cigarettes and being given a chocolate bar? Ask for a Metro Day Ticket and that's what you should get. Mind you, you can buy from First both a Swansea and a Swansea Bay day ticket. Now that's confusing

It certainly is, as I witnessed for msyelf on Tuesday when a lady with the £4.20 Swansea City ticket had to buy another £4.50 Swansea Bay ticket to get to Neath. She claimed she told the driver she bought it off that she wanted to get to Neath, but was sold the wrong ticket. Whether that was the case or not I suspect we may never find out!

I think if someone makes a genuine msitake when issuing a ticket, that is very different from deliberately claiming that particular tickets don't exist, though that may eb down to poor training rather than a deliberate attempt to mislead.

Certainly, if someone asks for something like a Metro Day ticket, and gets deliberately sold an operator specific ticket instead, then that is wrong and should be raised with the operator and the PTE. But there is always the difficulty in proving that a particular type of ticket was requested in the first place, especially if the passenger only finds out later on when they attempt to travel on a different operator.

 

[AndyLandy]

There's an issue if passengers are being deliberately misled. One assumes if you're a bus driver for a smaller bus company and you're aware that this is going on, it's most likely because you're seeing passengers rock up with another operator's specific day ticket and trying to board your bus.

It's possible that some are just folks trying it on by buying a cheaper day ticket and attempting to blag it, but equally it could be that drivers for the larger firms are being incentivised to sell operator-specific tickets and people getting the wrong product.

 

[455driver]

Im guessing it's a problem because the passenger asks for a "Metro Day" ticket, but gets sold a First / Arriva one instead. I used to have that problem with First / Stagecoach in Greater Manchester.

Or the pasenger asks for a rover ticket and is sold a First/ Arriva one when what they actually wanted was a Metro Day Rover but wont admit they didnt make themselves clear when buying the ticket when they get on the next bus, I mean all bus drivers are mind readers arent they!

 

[34D]

Or the pasenger asks for a rover ticket and is sold a First/ Arriva one when what they actually wanted was a Metro Day Rover but wont admit they didnt make themselves clear when buying the ticket when they get on the next bus, I mean all bus drivers are mind readers arent they!

This is the crux of the problem. Passengers ask for a day rider or dayrover (non specific). The First driver has a choice of £3.90 First Leeds day, £4.50 First WY day, and £5.40 MetroDay.

Most go for the first by default.

This causes the problem for those of us in the smaller company that the passenger tries it on (innocently or otherwise) and then gets narky when the smaller operator's driver doesn't show discretion.

What I (personally) usually do is (especially if the passenger looks like the sort of occasional passenger, to whom we need to show good customer service in order to entice out of their cars again) allow the passenger to travel the first time, inform them to ask for the MetroDay next time, then if I see them a second time with the First only ticket then I will ensure that I charge them the relevant single fare.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's an issue if passengers are being deliberately misled. One assumes if you're a bus driver for a smaller bus company and you're aware that this is going on, it's most likely because you're seeing passengers rock up with another operator's specific day ticket and trying to board your bus.

It's possible that some are just folks trying it on by buying a cheaper day ticket and attempting to blag it, but equally it could be that drivers for the larger firms are being incentivised to sell operator-specific tickets and people getting the wrong product.

Yes. It is 50/50 passengers who really want the £5.40 ticket and trying it on.

Smart cards will at least not require the choice to be made that morning
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Could Metro be given the authority to ban them?

Only by introducing Quality Contracts

 

[Polarbear]

A similar issue arises on a Quality Partnership route local to me. Routes 1 & 2 from Chester to Liverpool are jointly run between Arriva & Stagecoach. However, both operators have their own range of daily & weekly tickets that have differing validities away from the QP route.

Added to that, a large part of the route falls within Merseyside & therefore all Merseyside passes are valid within that area. Notices have recently gone up on all the buses to remind people that Merseyside passes are not valid into Cheshire on buses but quite a few still get caught out at the likes of Cheshire Oaks.

Problem do arise with people trying to make journeys from the likes of Ellesmere Port to North Wales, as they HAVE to get an Arriva bus & buy their ticket to enable their onward journey. However, as Stagecoach operate the majority of journeys, you do see a number of confused/disgruntled people who end up with the wrong ticket that doesn't allow thm to make an onward connection after Chester (and the same happens the other way too).

Whilst well intentioned, QP's can cause problems.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I've had this issue in the Bristol / Bath area. Down here we have a ticket called AvonRider, which is valid for most bus operators in the area (including north Somerset, south Gloucestershire, Bath and North East Somerset and Weston Super Mare). While First offer their First Day South West ticket, which gives you a much larger area (including devon and cornwall) but restricted to First buses. Both are around the same price, and at least twice I have asked for the AvonRider ticket but the driver tried to sell me the First Day one.

 

[radamfi]

In Greater Manchester, if someone asks for a 'Daysaver' on a First bus, almost certainly they would get a FirstDay. You have to ask for a 'System One' ticket if that is what you want. It doesn't help that the GM Buses day ticket used to be called a 'Daysaver'.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

My own experience in West Yorkshire is that if you are clear about the ticket you want, the driver will issue the correct ticket. Surely if they issue the wrong one, the passenger should be alerted to the error by the fact that the driver asks for £4.30 rather than £5.40.

I can't see myself ever needing to buy a countywide operator-specific ticket anyway- I'll often get a FirstDay (Hudds & Halifax) for £3.80 (off-peak) for trips to the hospital or whatever- but if I'm going further afield chances are I'll either need to use non-first services or at the very least being able to do so will make life much easier and be well-worth the extra £1.10 or so.

Though if 'Quality Contracts' come in I hope WYPTE will introduce a 'local' day ticket for use in each individual 'metropolitan' area (Kirklees/Calderdale/Bradford/Leeds/Wakefield) that makes up the 'Metro' area.

 

[AndyHudds]

It's like supermarkets selling their own branded stuff. There doesn't seem to be an issue there, so why should operators be stopped selling their own ticket? And incidentally, why can't the smaller firms sell their own saver tickets as well?

That's the problem in the main, people just see that big thing with 6 wheels and load of seats as a thing to get them to where they're going irrespective of who operates the service. It just puts people off using buses and confuses people no end. Sometimes bus companies are their own worst enemies,as I said in the main people don't give two hoots who run the buses they just want to get from a to b!!

 

[34D]

That's the problem in the main, people just see that big thing with 6 wheels and load of seats as a thing to get them to where they're going irrespective of who operates the service. It just puts people off using buses and confuses people no end. Sometimes bus companies are there own worst enemies,as I said in the main people don't give two hoots who run the buses they just want to get from a to b!!

Agree 100%

 

[Mojo]

The main problem I used to have in Birmingham is the smaller operators refusing to sell a 1 day Busmaster (now nBus), claiming that it did not exist; or the smaller operators being shown a ticket on West Midlands stock and being told it was not valid without even looking at it, because they were assuming it was a West Midlands Daysaver.

 

[tbtc]

So we should force everyone buying a local ticket/ First ticket/ Arriva ticket (etc) to pay an extra pound or two for a day's travelling... and that won't put people off?

 

[34D]

So we should force everyone buying a local ticket/ First ticket/ Arriva ticket (etc) to pay an extra pound or two for a day's travelling... and that won't put people off?

Not at all. We shall simply require all drivers to briefly enquire as to what precisely the passenger wants.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The only way to stop operators flogging their own branded tickets would be to scrap them altogether (which would be great) or to make the area where the ticket is valid smaller e.g. making a First Day Halifax & Huddersfield, only valid up to the town centre's boundary or the 10th stop from both bus stations (so roughly Halifax bus station to Hospital, or Huddersfield bus station to Lockwood Bar). Thus making that type of ticket worthless, which in a way will encourage customers to purchase the MetroDay instead.

A mate of mine works for FirstGroup (been working for them for the past year) has on a few occations delibirately sold a First Week instead only because the customer asked for a Stagecoach product. So its not only me who is sick of people asking for the wrong branded ticket, yes Yorkshire Rider did sell the Stagecoach termed tickets but that is now in the past were it belongs, we have to move on and accept the new names applied to the brands.

Its like holding up an Addidas T-Shirt and saying this is a Nike T-shirt with people saying its not.

 

[tbtc]

The only way to stop operators flogging their own branded tickets would be to scrap them altogether (which would be great) or to make the area where the ticket is valid smaller e.g. making a First Day Halifax & Huddersfield, only valid up to the town centre's boundary or the 10th stop from both bus stations (so roughly Halifax bus station to Hospital, or Huddersfield bus station to Lockwood Bar). Thus making that type of ticket worthless, which in a way will encourage customers to purchase the MetroDay instead

So you want to make the cheap tickets "worthless" to encourage people to buy a much more expensive ticket than the currently need?

 

[radamfi]

The point is, it is highly likely that fares would be same or lower than today's single company tickets in a more standard integrated fare system. The need to apportion revenue between different companies in the bizarre fare system employed in that part of the England, plus Wales and Scotland, covered by deregulation is bound to push up the price of the integrated ticket

 

[455driver]

Not at all. We shall simply require all drivers to briefly enquire as to what precisely the passenger wants.

So the bus drivers have enough time to ask every passenger 2 or 3 questions rather than expecting the passenger to ask for the ticket they want in the first place!

 

[BrummyBoy]

The main problem I used to have in Birmingham is the smaller operators refusing to sell a 1 day Busmaster (now nBus), claiming that it did not exist; or the smaller operators being shown a ticket on West Midlands stock and being told it was not valid without even looking at it, because they were assuming it was a West Midlands Daysaver.

That last point still happens sometimes

 

[NorthernSpirit]

So you want to make the cheap tickets "worthless" to encourage people to buy a much more expensive ticket than the currently need?

It works out far cheaper purchasing an integrated multi operator ticket, plus it would be the PTE who would get the cash first and not the operator who woul dget it second.