An idea to reduce dwell times for trains with uneven loading

[DJL]

It has been observed many times that often a train can be packed in like sardines at one end and have seats available at the other.

While I personally prefer to board near where I want to exit - I won't do so if I know I'm going to get crammed in when there is space elsewhere.


Would it be possible to install sensors inside the train carriage (motion, weight, heat - whatever) which can estimate how many people are in each carriage (or even near each door) - then communicate this information to the next station on route.
The platform could have (small) coloured lights to indicate the estimated loading at various points on the next train.

Automated announcements could then instruct people not to crowd the areas with red lights and to spread towards the areas with yellow and green lights.


Or would most passengers simply ignore that advice and cram themselves in anyway?

 

[swt_passenger]

Would it be possible to install sensors inside the train carriage (motion, weight, heat - whatever) which can estimate how many people are in each carriage (or even near each door) - then communicate this information to the next station on route.

Yes - load measurement and passenger counting equipment already exists, but often only on a subset of a given fleet. Eg some SWT 450s have infra red passenger count detectors above all the doorways.

Everything you suggest about platform info displays about space on the next train is in the spec for the new Thameslink units, I'd expect it will be done with Crossrail as well, who will also have large passenger on/off flows to deal with at their central stations.

I'd agree that nothing will force passengers to use the info though.

 

[DJL]

Everything you suggest about platform info displays about space on the next train is in the spec for the new Thameslink units, I'd expect it will be done with Crossrail as well, who will also have large passenger on/off flows to deal with at their central stations.

Sounds good - especially as I use thameslink (although probably won't be by the time the new units arrive - and they probably won't run the Kent services anyway?)

 

[Loki]

It has been observed many times that often a train can be packed in like sardines at one end and have seats available at the other.

While I personally prefer to board near where I want to exit - I won't do so if I know I'm going to get crammed in when there is space elsewhere.


Would it be possible to install sensors inside the train carriage (motion, weight, heat - whatever) which can estimate how many people are in each carriage (or even near each door) - then communicate this information to the next station on route.
The platform could have (small) coloured lights to indicate the estimated loading at various points on the next train.

Automated announcements could then instruct people not to crowd the areas with red lights and to spread towards the areas with yellow and green lights.


Or would most passengers simply ignore that advice and cram themselves in anyway?

Siemens Desiro City already has this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVQYldQpeKY
2:30 onwards.

 

[Monty]

Yes - load measurement and passenger counting equipment already exists, but often only on a subset of a given fleet. Eg some SWT 450s have infra red passenger count detectors above all the doorways.

Everything you suggest about platform info displays about space on the next train is in the spec for the new Thameslink units, I'd expect it will be done with Crossrail as well, who will also have large passenger on/off flows to deal with at their central stations.

I'd agree that nothing will force passengers to use the info though.

I don't think it's the 450 fleet that has them, but I do know a small number of SWT's 458s have them fitted. However there are less than ideal, as soon as the sensors are triggered the TMS has a fit and 'takes it's ball home' until the problem is rectified (normally meaning passengers have to be turfed off).

 

[NotATrainspott]

It has been observed many times that often a train can be packed in like sardines at one end and have seats available at the other.

While I personally prefer to board near where I want to exit - I won't do so if I know I'm going to get crammed in when there is space elsewhere.


Would it be possible to install sensors inside the train carriage (motion, weight, heat - whatever) which can estimate how many people are in each carriage (or even near each door) - then communicate this information to the next station on route.
The platform could have (small) coloured lights to indicate the estimated loading at various points on the next train.

Automated announcements could then instruct people not to crowd the areas with red lights and to spread towards the areas with yellow and green lights.


Or would most passengers simply ignore that advice and cram themselves in anyway?

The IEP spec document says they will all have passenger-counting systems and internet access so to do something like this would just be a matter of writing some software.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Reality ie people will just crown themselves in any way. Look at the front 2 carriages of trains from London Bridge to Charing Cross in the morning peak, sardines at the front, relatively acres of space at the back.

Or in my case look at carriage 6 on the 18.08 London Bridge to Uckfield, stuffed full whole journey to Crowborough, with people even coming to stand in the door lobbies at Edenbridge because they want to be first up the steps and out of the station car park.

The better way to reduce overcrowding and dwell times at stations is to increase the number of station exits and/or have a bridge at each end of the platform.

 

[D7666]

I don't think it's the 450 fleet that has them, but I do know a small number of SWT's 458s have them fitted. However there are less than ideal, as soon as the sensors are triggered the TMS has a fit and 'takes it's ball home' until the problem is rectified (normally meaning passengers have to be turfed off).

319s have load sensors; there have been instances of overloaded northbound 319s being taken out of service at Kings Cross Thameslink, emptied, and reinstated at Kentish Town or St.Albans. Yes I do mean KX TL, as thats where the events I remember took place; I do not know of one in more recent times, but until the TL route got its hands on all 319s, and the 377/5s, there were some appallingly over crowded evening peak trains.

I'm pretty certain all the Mk.3 type EMU have them as part of the air suspension and I think - not absolutely sure - it is standard on all P7 and T3 bogies. I would suggest if it were standard then, all EMU built later would be so fitted. No idea about 507/313 type stock. However, what 319s have is nothing more sophisticated than go/no-go sensors.



--
Nick

 

[WatcherZero]

The reality is the driver for passenger counting systems to become mandatory is so that the Dft can collect accurate data on crowding and travel patterns and not have to infer it from ticket sales data.

 

[Flamingo]

The only way to get people to spread themselves down the train is to have a loading system akin to what theme parks use to load rides, where after X number of people are queueing for one carriage, people are moved to the next block and so on.

I am also of the opinion that the only way to enforce it is to give platform staff cattle prods, and then (at least at certain stations in South Wales) have somebody else standing behind the platform staff (again with a cattle prod) to make them actually attempt to move the passengers away from the one door.

 

[43074]

There was a classic situation at Leicester this evening... a 10 car 222 (2x5 car) arrives at Leicester, I alight from Coach 7 of 10 where there were plenty of seats, walk down the platform towards the station concourse and in the first few vehicles of the front 5 cars it is full and standing; the train departed late because 20 people were trying to get in through one door despite 16 others being avaliable for use over a 230 metre train length! Announcements even say this train has 10 coaches... why the hell do people try and board the train over the minimum space possible!

Better information on the platform about where to stand for each part of the train would be a good start, like those they have on the continent or the old InterCity Platform Zones, with the cubes for Gold Zone, Purple Zone and Blue Zone. The idea of the train's computer sending information of the train loading will only work if there is clear information on the platform with regards to where to wait.

 

[WatcherZero]

The only way to get people to spread themselves down the train is to have a loading system akin to what theme parks use to load rides, where after X number of people are queueing for one carriage, people are moved to the next block and so on.

I am also of the opinion that the only way to enforce it is to give platform staff cattle prods, and then (at least at certain stations in South Wales) have somebody else standing behind the platform staff (again with a cattle prod) to make them actually attempt to move the passengers away from the one door.

Rather than the prod I prefer the subtle methods of our forebears, by varying the platform entry points along the line you can balance out the load between the front, middle and rear of a train by the simple knowledge that people are lazy and dont usually spread out along the platform unless forced to do so by platform crowding.

 

[edwin_m]

319s have load sensors; there have been instances of overloaded northbound 319s being taken out of service at Kings Cross Thameslink, emptied, and reinstated at Kentish Town or St.Albans. Yes I do mean KX TL, as thats where the events I remember took place; I do not know of one in more recent times, but until the TL route got its hands on all 319s, and the 377/5s, there were some appallingly over crowded evening peak trains.

I'm pretty certain all the Mk.3 type EMU have them as part of the air suspension and I think - not absolutely sure - it is standard on all P7 and T3 bogies. I would suggest if it were standard then, all EMU built later would be so fitted. No idea about 507/313 type stock. However, what 319s have is nothing more sophisticated than go/no-go sensors.

A 319 (319172 I think) was the first unit in the UK to be fitted with equipment to record and download the passenger load based on air suspension pressure, by BR Research in around 1994. It was part of a package of condition monitoring equipment, and the predecessor to systems fitted (as mentioned) to many classes of unit today. I believe the technique of counting entrances and exits by some form of sensor at the doors is now preferred, since this can give actual loads and also boardings/alightings at each station, whereas air pressure can only give an estimated load based on an average weight per passenger. TOCs use it to prepare passenger statistics for service planning.

I believe braking systems do also sense the suspension air pressure to produce a uniform deceleration regardless of load, which probably leads to less wheelslide in the situations described when most of the passengers are crammed into one end. And incidentally if this happens it suggests passengers don't mind standing as much as some people might suggest!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't think it's the 450 fleet that has them, but I do know a small number of SWT's 458s have them fitted. However there are less than ideal, as soon as the sensors are triggered the TMS has a fit and 'takes it's ball home' until the problem is rectified (normally meaning passengers have to be turfed off).

As far as I understand it the onboard systems on the 458s have been rather buggy to say the least, though there's also the problem of installing such a system on a 'legacy' route. Perhaps such a system would be workable in say the Crossrail 'core'. The outer reaches of Crossrail might be a bit more tricky though!

 

[jopsuk]

I'm guessing whatever stock Crossrail gets will, similar to the Thameslink new stock, LO 378s and LU S-Stock, be "open".

 

[Simon11]

Why not just put an extra coach on the front! hehe

I'm sure it won't be long until this is rolled out

 

[455driver]

I don't think it's the 450 fleet that has them, but I do know a small number of SWT's 458s have them fitted. However there are less than ideal, as soon as the sensors are triggered the TMS has a fit and 'takes it's ball home' until the problem is rectified (normally meaning passengers have to be turfed off).

Monty Monty Monty, some 444s, 450s and 455s have had the pass count system fitted above the doors, they are the ones with the 4 rectangles above the doors instead of a plain panel.

On the 450s the installation is so good that the wire gets caught every time you try and open the panel :roll:.

 

[Pumbaa]

The Desiros have both the subset of class with infra red sensors, and on all sets the air suspension levels are recorded and crudely converted into a load factor. Both data sets are recorded and used.

 

[455driver]

Passengers will still cram in the same coach they always have, they wont change just because the screens say there may be space in a different part of the train.

 

[A-driver]

I have recently started a new tactic on Moorgate bound trains in the morning peak. Stations from harringay to Essex road suffer badly from the 'front 2 coaches only' syndrome. Whilst the back is still crowded even the busiest trains have standing room in the vestibules (can be clearly seen on the monitors) but people still insist on only using the front and then breaking into the middle cabs to avoid having to travel at the back (there is another ongoing sting with BTP at the moment to catch those breaking in to cabs).

I have now started making a very sarcastic announcement along the lines of 'there is a lot more room to board at the back if the train, I know that it means you will have further to walk at old street and Moorgate but it will reduce the usual delays in arriving. If you wouldn't mind making your way to the back to board I will wait for you'.

If people move towards the back I will wait but if no one moves (as usual ) I just press doors closed and wait for the doors to close and those who don't get on can wait for the next one.

It is getting silly on that line the amount of delays every morning caused by overcrowding when the back of the train does have space but you have to wait for people to cram into the same couple of doors.

 

[DJL]

Rather than the prod I prefer the subtle methods of our forebears, by varying the entry point along the line you can balance out the load between the front, middle and rear of a train by the simple knowledge that people are lazy and dont usually spread out along the platform unless forced to do so by platform crowding.

I don't think this is entirely true.
At Orpington I've often found that most people will walk the entire length of the platform to be near the front of the train for edit in London.
I. E. It is the exit points that need to be spread out, not the entry points.

Doing this at many stations may not be feasible and it doesn't solve the problem when there is just one station which is used by 90%+ of the passengers.


The situation seems to be far less pronounced on the Thames link services that I have been using recently, presumably becuase blackfriars (and I assume city thsmeslink) has exits at both ends, Farringdon I think the exit is at the back while elephant and others have exits nearer the front.
Despite this some carriages are slightly more crowded then others and I think it would be useful for passengers, especially the less frequent users of a given route to have some idea of where there is likely to be more space.

So I am glad to here that this feature is on the way.

 

[swt_passenger]

Deleted - point already answered.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Passengers will still cram in the same coach they always have, they wont change just because the screens say there may be space in a different part of the train.

Agree 100%. I get fed up of looking on the CCTV on a 444 and telling people there are plenty of empty seats in the rear or front coaches only for them to continue standing and getting in everybody else's way.

 

[Flamingo]

A few Saturdays ago, I took a train from Cardiff after the rugby. I had about 150 empty seats in Std and the corridors were clear but according to several passengers the platform staff had told passengers the train was crowded, they could sit in first (get them off my platform syndrome).

I made several announcements where the empty seats were, waited twenty minutes, then went through charging everybody the weekend first. Most paid, some moved, one took my name to complain about me, not the platform staff.

 

[thelongestroad]

It doesn't matter how many flashing LEDs and load sensors you have or indeed how many doors, there is always a beeline to the one door!

 

[D7666]

The situation seems to be far less pronounced on the Thames link services that I have been using recently, presumably becuase blackfriars (and I assume city thsmeslink) has exits at both ends, Farringdon I think the exit is at the back while elephant and others have exits nearer the front.

As a Thameslink commuter I disagree.

I commute from Luton to London but not always to the same place and have a number of journey options.

I use on different days all of West Hampstead, St.pancras, Farringdon, City, Blackfriars, some times all of them in the same week, and, less often, Elephant & Castle .

Northbound evening peak trains are always packed in the front, be it a 'fast' train or all stations, there are more passengers at the middle to north ends of all those central London stations.

BFR and City may well have entrances at both ends, but in both cases more passengers arrive at the station from the north entrance, and, most importantly, the train stop positions are at the north end, so people congregate there. ZFD people accumulate in the middle but biased towards the front unit of an 8car, StPancras, WHP accumulate middle to front.

All that is why on a Down train I am usually in the rear car - sardine cans in the front unit, rear car I have seldom have anyone sat next to me, except at the height of the p.m. peak (which I try and avoid anyway).

In the Up direction, Luton, Airport, load the front, Harpenden, St.Albans load middle to front (Harpenden they do spread themselves out a bit, St.Albans they are just plain sheep at the front) especially if it is a 'fast' train, Radlett and Elstree variable but again tend to the front.

On Up trains I also use the rear car from Luton. Depending on which train I use, I sometimes have someone sat next to me, sometimes not, but even then if I am next to someone its usually when I have the window of a 3 in a 2+3 section, if I am on a 2 no-one sits there; but always the front unit is jammed full.

It does not matter if the train is 319s or 377s, Part of the fault is inability to move between coupled 319s, you can argue if you wish this will be eliminated with the 700s when they appear, but the same dim witted passengers have not worked out you can walk through 377s yet, and we've had those 3 years now.

--
Nick

 

[badassunicorn]

at my local station on the GEML, there are posters up showing which services are most likely to have seats and where out of the busiest peak hour trains, colour coded and everything.

 

[DJL]

I use the Kent side, maybe it's different?
On inward bound journeys I actually tend to skip the "fast" trains entirely and favour the slower ones. It only takes 6 minutes longer and I'll generally have 4 seats to myself anywhere in the train until at least Beckenham.
By Denmark hill the train is pretty busy still but as far as I can tell the leading is reasonably even.


The same cannot be said for other routes however. St Mary cray (my Station) to Victoria, and Orpington to all 3 regular London terminii (terminus'?) definitly tend to be much busier a nearer the front

 

[rebmcr]

Even if there are red indicators at the platform, the system doesn't know that the full carriages aren't going to mostly alight here.

Seeing that happen even just once or twice will quickly teach passengers that the lights are not to be trusted.

 

[DJL]

Even if there are red indicators at the platform, the system doesn't know that the full carriages aren't going to mostly alight here.

Seeing that happen even just once or twice will quickly teach passengers that the lights are not to be trusted.

This is true. But I don't think there are a great many stations where a significant portion of the train alights, and a significant portion boards on a given train?