Southeastern, short trains, and new stock?

[SF-02]

There's a hell of a lot of short formed trains tonight following a pattern in recent weeks. Any idea why - a result of the storms perhaps damaging trains? Also a fair few train failures this week amidst other problems on the network.

Over recent months dating back to the olympics they had turned performance around since poor showings in 2011 and it has been good.

The problems with short formed really does highlight the need for more trains. I read lots on here on various threads about new stock for southern and south west trains but apart from a mention of 100 new vehicles in September there hasn't been much info about southeastern. I think these are to be 377/1 from southern coming in 2017 aren't they?

I know the London Bridge rebuild has to complete first which offers some interesting questions - before it begins in January some services are supposed to become 12 cars. Where are the extra Networkers coming from and what lines/services will benefit? When the rebuild does begin and with less paths available most if not all services will become 12 cars I assume except those that call at Woolwich Dockyard which can only be 10.

Another problem is that if there is a lack of stock the Victoria to Dartford service seems to take a hit first. That service is absolutely packed solid at rush hour with only 3 trains an hour - worse than many trains leaving central London terminals in my long and painful experience of it. I'm not sure SE realise this with it having to suffer short trains regularly and the first train around 5pm (30 minutes after the previous one) being diagrammed as standard at 4 coaches. Then with the next being short formed as well leads to some crushed conditions. New stock can't come soon enough to strengthen that service.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's actually only 100 vehicles (not 100 units) mentioned in the TSGN ITT isn't it? 100 units would be a relatively huge increase in fleet size...

 

[SF-02]

It's actually only 100 vehicles (not 100 units) mentioned in the TSGN ITT isn't it? 100 units would be a relatively huge increase in fleet size...

Oh yes sorry I will change that. They can't come soon enough.

 

[jnjkerbin]

They posted on twitter that some units are out of use following damage from poor rail conditions (presumeably wheel flats), but it does seem to be a regular occurance.

As a West Kent commuter (admittedly against the flow - south in the morning, north in the evening) we rarely seem to have short formations over here. In fact, generally SE do quite well for me except from the occasional delay.

 

[Class377/5]

The change to 12 Network is due to reduce tph with trains lengthened to provide similar capacity into London not additional capacity.

Don't forget the 100 377 carriages to Southeastern is connected to the reduced use of 319s on routes into Kent.

Within the TSGN ITT the sample timetable have some Southeastern services in it with 2tph Blackfriars to Orpington and 2tph Blackfriars to Beckenham Junction and same in the opposite direction along with two Rochester to Blackfriars services which such tie up something like 16 units out of the 25 its getting.

 

[SF-02]

The change to 12 Network is due to reduce tph with trains lengthened to provide similar capacity into London not additional capacity.

Don't forget the 100 377 carriages to Southeastern is connected to the reduced use of 319s on routes into Kent.

In the main yes 12 cars are needed for London Bridge rebuilding, but they will be running more 12 car trains from this January on existing paths and providing 3500 extra seats. That's 18 months before paths are reduced. Not sure what trains they will run on though.

Are all 100 377's earmarked for 319 replacement? I was hoping some would be used to displace 465/9 with first class for use on metro routes after 2017. More stock on the Dartford metros, semi fast Gillinghams, Victoria - Dartford, Orpington and Hayes lines would be very useful after the London Bridge rebuild to allow 10/12 car running continuing on the same amount of paths as used today.

EDIT : Just seen your edit after writing that. Any ideas on the 9 extra 377s?

 

[Class377/5]

In the main yes 12 cars are needed for London Bridge rebuilding, but they will be running more 12 car trains from this January on existing paths and providing 3500 extra seats. That's 18 months before paths are reduced. Not sure what trains they will run on though.

Are all 100 377's earmarked for 319 replacement? I was hoping some would be used to displace 465/9 with first class for use on metro routes after 2017. More stock on the Dartford metros, semi fast Gillinghams, Victoria - Dartford, Orpington and Hayes lines would be very useful after the London Bridge rebuild to allow 10/12 car running continuing on the same amount of paths as used today.

EDIT : Just seen your edit after writing that. Any ideas on the 9 extra 377s?

Its only rough looking at the issue as they could use Networkers.

The final these units will do x won't be know for some years as the full timetable. Especially at the Thameslink timetable is more inter connected with SE than the public side of the ITT suggests (12 car core to Orpington via Elephant service).

 

[Electrostar]

The number of short formed services and cancellations as a result of train failures is getting beyond the joke. They're now missing out stations because it's not safe to stop. You were lucky to receive an explanation, most of the time the Twitter service refuses to disclose the cause when asked. The trouble is there's no comeback. They get away with it time and time again. Southeastern management seem to run the service with a real shrug of the shoulders mentality.

 

[SF-02]

The number of short formed services and cancellations as a result of train failures is getting beyond the joke. They're now missing out stations because it's not safe to stop. You were lucky to receive an explanation, most of the time the Twitter service refuses to disclose the cause when asked. The trouble is there's no comeback. They get away with it time and time again. Southeastern management seem to run the service with a real shrug of the shoulders mentality.

They have been pretty good for 18 months but have dropped off again sharply the past 2 weeks. Southern users may not agree, but they are a lot better than their govia neighbours in my experience! Helped in part I suppose by lots of new stock coming along, and with TfL funding things such as full staffing along the route shared with London overground. Having said that I always get the sense southern management are more passenger focused. The SE Networker internal refresh was non existent except for moving information screens to a place less visible to some and are a mess already.

Communication and staffing need big improvements. I'm glad they now have a twitter feed staffed by a human but they introduced that a couple of years after every other London commuter operator.

I wish they would explain when units are away for a refresh or painting. They've never done this and it would help to know why some trains have been short. They havn't put out any info of what services will become 12 units from January - despite it being only 3 months away. It would be good PR for them. Also how they can do it is a mystery - I thought the existing units were being worked to the bone given the number of short forms but if it is due to an end of a rotating maintenance program that would be good to know & ease frustration. However they have not told me this via email or at meet the manager, nor MPs who have met them.

 

[Electrostar]

I think there's a culture of arrogance from the management at Southeastern that doesn't exist at the neighbouring franchise. They don't think it's necessary to inform passengers of issues that might affect them. Weekend carriages are halved without consultation. They regular switch off the number of carriages information from the dot matrix displays. At Southeastern-operated Beckenham Junction the CIS screens don't update when a Southern service has been curtailed at Crystal Palace despite Southern insisting the information has been updated in the NR system. I lose track of the times I hear staff apologising, and drivers sound genuinely embarrassed when they have to apologise for short -formations. No one ever explains why a train has been taken out of service - perhaps if they were forced to we could see if a pattern was emerging: old age, poor maintenance etc but this won't happen on a privatised railway where the operator, leasing company and government stand to lose face. Interconnecting doors invariably only work by waving a hand at the magic eye, internal dot matrix displays and audio announcements are often incorrect set or not working. The directly-operated franchisee achieved much but I fear GoVia is taking us back to Connex days. Worse still the DfT allows them. The contract has been extended yet the only public consultation is about stations - how about maintenance, quarter-hourly trains after 8pm and fines for short formations? Who do we complain to? Southeastern, the DfT, our MP? They couldn't care less.

 

[SF-02]

The directly-operated franchisee achieved much but I fear GoVia is taking us back to Connex days. Worse still the DfT allows them. The contract has been extended yet the only public consultation is about stations - how about maintenance, quarter-hourly trains after 8pm and fines for short formations? Who do we complain to? Southeastern, the DfT, our MP? They couldn't care less.

One of the things I liked when the franchise was directly operated was that the chief exec had his own column on the website, and at least once a week would write an article about what was happening, maintainence issues & problems, future plans etc. It was well written, didn't treat passengers as no nothings, and showed they cared. If that was still going we would be told what the issues have been with lack of trains and what changes to services there will be in January. But absolute silence is the name of the game now.