Cambrian hourly service consultation

[61653 HTAFC]

With regard to the 158 car that's currently a Barton Hill, what's happened to the other half of that unit? Perhaps it could have been put to use as a 3rd car on the peak Cambrian workings rather than gathering dust at Mach (which is what it's probably doing!).

I used the Cambrian between Salop and Aber fairly regularly a few years back as I was dating a girl who went to Aber Uni- and from what I could gather then the overcrowding was not just a peak issue- Now that the infrastructure is in place for an hourly service, the fact that a shortage of units is preventing it is rather disappointing.

 

[Rhydgaled]

With regard to the 158 car that's currently a Barton Hill, what's happened to the other half of that unit? Perhaps it could have been put to use as a 3rd car on the peak Cambrian workings rather than gathering dust at Mach (which is what it's probably doing!).

I think the coach you see outside Barton Hill is the one gathering dust. The other is probably the damaged one and is inside under repair.

 

[merlodlliw]

I think the coach you see outside Barton Hill is the one gathering dust. The other is probably the damaged one and is inside under repair.

There may well be a reason for the 2nd unit to be gathering dust,no doubt the insurers will have had need to see it,plus I am sure it also will have had to be checked for any structural damage etc,just my opinion.

ATW know if they add a unit,then take it away,the pax will play hell, I am now sure we will see a couple of Cambrian peak extras from next May,ATW have 158s all over the place,and will find stock when the money is on the table,

 

[Gareth Marston]

There may well be a reason for the 2nd unit to be gathering dust,no doubt the insurers will have had need to see it,plus I am sure it also will have had to be checked for any structural damage etc,just my opinion.

ATW know if they add a unit,then take it away,the pax will play hell, I am now sure we will see a couple of Cambrian peak extras from next May,ATW have 158s all over the place,and will find stock when the money is on the table,

Only lines that don't see a ATW 158 diagrammed on a regular basis are, Conwy Valley, Wrexham to Bidston, Shrewsbury to Manchester Piccadily, Heart of Wales, Pembroke Dock and the Table 5 Valley Lines services. There stabled overnight all over the shop Holyhead, Chester, Shrewsbury, Pwllheli, Machynlleth, Cardiff and Carmarthen. Could be a chance to re shuffle and keep them closer to depot and have more efficient maintained regimes for them as well.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Only lines that don't see a ATW 158 diagrammed on a regular basis are, Conwy Valley, Wrexham to Bidston, Shrewsbury to Manchester Piccadily, Heart of Wales, Pembroke Dock and the Table 5 Valley Lines services. There stabled overnight all over the shop Holyhead, Chester, Shrewsbury, Pwllheli, Machynlleth, Cardiff and Carmarthen. Could be a chance to re shuffle and keep them closer to depot and have more efficient maintained regimes for them as well.

Actually, I think there is a 158 reguarly diagramed from Pembroke Dock, the one stabled at Carmarthen runs a Pembroke in the morning I think. The Milford Haven/Carmarthen - Manchester services are also all booked for 175s Monday to Friday I believe, there's just one 158 diagram on Saturdays (not sure about Sundays). This is just what I've read on here and other fourms, I don't have access to the actual diagrams.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Only lines that don't see a ATW 158 diagrammed on a regular basis are, Conwy Valley, Wrexham to Bidston, Shrewsbury to Manchester Piccadily, Heart of Wales, Pembroke Dock and the Table 5 Valley Lines services.

There are two daily ATW North Wales-Birminghams which run via Crewe and Shrewsbury. There's an early run via Stafford too.
You also occasionally see 158s on the Crewe-Manchester run but probably not by design.
They might not have penetrated to Manchester Airport.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Fishguard was built solely for Southern Irish traffic , we can't assume that the low cost Airline bubble will continue for ever so keeping the ferry link is prudent sensible long term planning. Having a rail service thats no use to the local population due to the time of the tide is crackers, but a sensible service must be part of a long term development plan for services west of Swansea not a bolt on to existing patterns done in a rush.

Fishguard was actually conceived as transatlantic port for ocean liners. However, you are correct, it needs a sensible service.

 

[anthony263]

Actually, I think there is a 158 reguarly diagramed from Pembroke Dock, the one stabled at Carmarthen runs a Pembroke in the morning I think. The Milford Haven/Carmarthen - Manchester services are also all booked for 175s Monday to Friday I believe, there's just one 158 diagram on Saturdays (not sure about Sundays). This is just what I've read on here and other fourms, I don't have access to the actual diagrams.

You are correct I believe the 158 works the following:

05:40 Carmarthen - Pembroke Dock (Arr 07:03)
07:09 Pembroke Dock - Cardiff (Arr 10:40)

 

[Rhydgaled]

You are correct I believe the 158 works the following:

05:40 Carmarthen - Pembroke Dock (Arr 07:03)
07:09 Pembroke Dock - Cardiff (Arr 10:40)

Yes, that's what I've read. I've tried to guess at what it (and some other diagrams) do through the rest of the day and I think it just works Ebbw Vale - Cardiff/Bridgend services until forming the 20:17 Cardiff - Manchester, then running ECS to Crewe carriage sidings. If anyone wants to see the diagrams I've worked out and try to establish whether my guesses are correct please let me know.

 

[PHILIPE]

158s in South Wales work to:-
Milford Haven (weekends only)
Pembroke Dock
Fishguard Hbr (on 14 35 ex Gloucester stabling Carmarthen overnight)
Ebbw Vale
Maesteg
Cheltenham
Until 2005 they had work to Barry Island, Penarth, Coryton, Radyr and Rhymney
before the Valley Timetable was re-cast and their numbers with ATW reduced with introduction of 175s on Marches

 

[Gareth Marston]

Fishguard was actually conceived as transatlantic port for ocean liners. However, you are correct, it needs a sensible service.

yes it was but didn't last long in that format!
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Yes, that's what I've read. I've tried to guess at what it (and some other diagrams) do through the rest of the day and I think it just works Ebbw Vale - Cardiff/Bridgend services until forming the 20:17 Cardiff - Manchester, then running ECS to Crewe carriage sidings. If anyone wants to see the diagrams I've worked out and try to establish whether my guesses are correct please let me know.

Overnight stabling I believe as follows for 21 weekday diagrammed units

Holyhead 1 unit
Chester 4 units
Crewe 2 units
Shrewsbury 4 units
Pwllheli 1 unit
Machynlleth 7 units
Cardiff 1 unit
Carmarthan 1 unit

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Re Fishguard, which has crept heavily into this topic.

I visited west Wales at the time the crews were being trained up for the additional services, and was curious why there was a pacer running round the place at strange times.

Having later found the (then draft) timetable it was clear that the service was based around squeezing more out of existing diagrams / units rather than planning a decent service to meet user needs – and then resourcing it accordingly. Hence lots of very early morning and late evening workings with connections at Clarbeston Road and such like – which were tagged onto the existing diagrams.

Admittedly the service is useful if you want to ‘go west young man’ in the morning and return in the evening. But, for tourists or eastbound locals, the services are a chocolate fireguard. There is a very early departure from Cardiff (0642) / Swansea (0750) – arrive Fishguard 0947, then nothing until the boat train arriving at 1327. You can then enjoy a few minutes at Fishguard Harbour or 5 plus hours until the next Westbound departure at 1900. Brother Richards charabanc to / from Haverfordwest it is then!

Perhaps it was designed to fail ? – we tried it but nobody used it so go away and stop asking for things in future, nuisance peasants!

On the subject of the Boat Train, could this not be operated by Gerald – giving a better standard of stock than the present service (a combined 150 and 142 when I last went that way). The timings used to be convenient. Might attract decent numbers of enthusiasts too, with quite good revenue given that it runs non-stop so you have to buy a ticket from Cardiff.

 

[swcovas]

Re Fishguard, which has crept heavily into this topic.


Admittedly the service is useful if you want to ‘go west young man’ in the morning and return in the evening. But, for tourists or eastbound locals, the services are a chocolate fireguard. There is a very early departure from Cardiff (0642) / Swansea (0750) – arrive Fishguard 0947, then nothing until the boat train arriving at 1327. You can then enjoy a few minutes at Fishguard Harbour or 5 plus hours until the next Westbound departure at 1900.

I think you may have this the wrong way round! It's ok if you want to "go EAST young man". Great if you're a local and want to go to Swansea/Cardiff in the morning and return in evening but as I found last year no good for taking a trip for a day down west. Apart for the shortcomings of the Mon-Sat tt it would be great to see at least a train on Sunday to get leisure traffic INTO North Pembs.

 

[merlodlliw]

On the subject of the Boat Train, could this not be operated by Gerald – giving a better standard of stock than the present service (a combined 150 and 142 when I last went that way). The timings used to be convenient. Might attract decent numbers of enthusiasts too, with quite good revenue given that it runs non-stop so you have to buy a ticket from Cardiff.

I note the return afternoon boat train from Fishguard goes to Cheltenham Spa, so this would rule out Gerald,who will continue to slumber for six hours at Canton from December timetable.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I think you may have this the wrong way round! It's ok if you want to "go EAST young man". Great if you're a local and want to go to Swansea/Cardiff in the morning and return in evening but as I found last year no good for taking a trip for a day down west. Apart for the shortcomings of the Mon-Sat tt it would be great to see at least a train on Sunday to get leisure traffic INTO North Pembs.

Indeed. Apologies. For a man that spends a lot of time walking (alone) on remote moorlands, its quite worrying when you think about it!

I blame age and the weather forecasters with their 'south westerleys' which come from, rather than go to, the south west.

 

[swcovas]

Indeed. Apologies. For a man that spends a lot of time walking (alone) on remote moorlands, its quite worrying when you think about it!

I blame age and the weather forecasters with their 'south westerleys' which come from, rather than go to, the south west.

And plenty of South westerlies in Pembrokeshire.......

 

[Rhydgaled]

Having later found the (then draft) timetable it was clear that the service was based around squeezing more out of existing diagrams / units rather than planning a decent service to meet user needs – and then resourcing it accordingly. Hence lots of very early morning and late evening workings with connections at Clarbeston Road and such like – which were tagged onto the existing diagrams.

Indeed, the 175-worked services in the morning are just an extention of an existing diagram, and I think the other morning service was resourced by having a Fishguard run instead of running two trains close to each other between Carmarthen and Swansea.

There is a very early departure from Cardiff (0642) / Swansea (0750) – arrive Fishguard 0947, then nothing until the boat train arriving at 1327. You can then enjoy a few minutes at Fishguard Harbour or 5 plus hours until the next Westbound departure at 1900. Brother Richards charabanc to / from Haverfordwest it is then!

The boat train itself, with the 10:57 departure from Cardiff, is a rather early start if making a long journey to north Pembs. And by the time the first evening additional train reaches Fishguard the last bus to Cardigan has been missed (can still get to Newport though).

Perhaps it was designed to fail ? – we tried it but nobody used it so go away and stop asking for things in future, nuisance peasants!

I did think of that when the timetable was first published. I have read some text from locals sounding quite in favor of the timetable though.

On the subject of the Boat Train, could this not be operated by Gerald – giving a better standard of stock than the present service (a combined 150 and 142 when I last went that way). The timings used to be convenient.

Booked for a class 150 normally, one of my pet hates. Personally I think a 158 should be used instead of the 150 (the 158 that works the 07:09 Pembroke Dock to Cardiff looks to be the best bet, it currently does Ebbw Vales after that, give 'em the 150 instead) when only a single unit is required. When strengthening is needed, then Gerald should replace the 158.

I note the return afternoon boat train from Fishguard goes to Cheltenham Spa, so this would rule out Gerald,who will continue to slumber for six hours at Canton from December timetable.

Providing there are bi-directional platforms in Cardiff, that's easily fixed. Have the Fishguard unit sit for 6 hours at Canton instead of the Gerald set, bring it out to the platform a bit before the Fishguard arrives, Gerald set comes in behind and reverses out to Canton, unit runs off to Cheltenham.

 

[swcovas]

The boat train itself, with the 10:57 departure from Cardiff, is a rather early start if making a long journey to north Pembs. And by the time the first evening additional train reaches Fishguard the last bus to Cardigan has been missed (can still get to Newport though).



Booked for a class 150 normally, one of my pet hates. Personally I think a 158 should be used instead of the 150 (the 158 that works the 07:09 Pembroke Dock to Cardiff looks to be the best bet, it currently does Ebbw Vales after that, give 'em the 150 instead) when only a single unit is required. When strengthening is needed, then Gerald should replace the 158.


.

Agree, it would be far better as a 158 for relatively long run of this nature. Isn't using Gerlad a bit of overkill though? Agree as someone said that it would attract the enthusiast fraternity. My last trip on the boat train was a 150 on a weekday last summer. There were 63 on board (I admit to being a bit of a head-counter!) leaving Cardiff. Lots of luggage made the train seem pretty full but in reality a 153 load. A handful off and on at Llanelli and same at Whitland. 19 off at Goodwick.

Of course the rather early start from Cardiff is to strike a balance so that arriving onward passengers arriving from Ireland don't have too long to wait for their train which then means a longer wait for those taking the boat TO Ireland. How long ago was it that we had two seperate trains, one to collect arrivals and one take the deaprting passengers for Ireland? In the 80s?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Agree, it would be far better as a 158 for relatively long run of this nature. Isn't using Gerlad a bit of overkill though?

Agreed using Gerald would be overkill most of the time, which is why I only suggested using it on days it is currently strengthened. So, use a single 158 when that is enough and when it isn't enough use the Gerald set becuase you probably aren't going to be able to find two 158s when it needs to be longer. If you rely on attaching 153s it still has to be timed for 75mph, wheras if you use Gerald when strengthening is required you can run at 90mph to Port Talbot.

Of course the rather early start from Cardiff is to strike a balance so that arriving onward passengers arriving from Ireland don't have too long to wait for their train

I'm not complaining about the timing of the boat train, the boat is when the boat is, although it would be nice if the boat could alter it's timings slightly to allow a clockface rail service.

But the boat train is a bit early for passengers making a long trip to north Pembs. which means a train between 13:00 and 14:00 from Cardiff would probably have been a rather useful addition to the timetable.

 

[swcovas]

I'm not complaining about the timing of the boat train, the boat is when the boat is, although it would be nice if the boat could alter it's timings slightly to allow a clockface rail service.

But the boat train is a bit early for passengers making a long trip to north Pembs. which means a train between 13:00 and 14:00 from Cardiff would probably have been a rather useful addition to the timetable.

Yes, true. and by the same token it would be great to have an earlier depart to enable a day visit to North Pembs, a market that I am sure must be there. But we are getting into compiling a wish list.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Boys theres a separate west Wales thread please use that.

 

[PHILIPE]

I note the return afternoon boat train from Fishguard goes to Cheltenham Spa, so this would rule out Gerald,who will continue to slumber for six hours at Canton from December timetable.

It goes to Cheltenham rather than this coming from Maesteg more due to operating reasons regarding Platform Occupation at Cardiff Central. We have an additional 15 10 Swansea to Chester (formally Gerallts time) which has to be accomodated so the Fishguard keeps on going as it can't reverse back out.
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yes it was but didn't last long in that format!
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Overnight stabling I believe as follows for 21 weekday diagrammed units

Holyhead 1 unit
Chester 4 units
Crewe 2 units
Shrewsbury 4 units
Pwllheli 1 unit
Machynlleth 7 units
Cardiff 1 unit
Carmarthan 1 unit

Holyhead 2
Chester 3
Crewe 2
Shrewsbury 4
Pwllheli 1
Machynlleth 6
Cardiff 1
Carmarthen 1

Total 20

 

[Gareth Marston]

It goes to Cheltenham rather than this coming from Maesteg more due to operating reasons regarding Platform Occupation at Cardiff Central. We have an additional 15 10 Swansea to Chester (formally Gerallts time) which has to be accomodated so the Fishguard keeps on going as it can't reverse back out.
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Holyhead 2
Chester 3
Crewe 2
Shrewsbury 4
Pwllheli 1
Machynlleth 6
Cardiff 1
Carmarthen 1

Total 20

Definitely 7 starters at Mach and 1 at Pwllheli.

0435 MCH to Aberystwyth = 2 units then forms the 0514 to INTL
0513 MCH to Pwllheli = 1 unit then forms 0720 Pwllheli to INTL
0530 MCH to Barmouth = 1 unit then forms 0646 to INTL joins with 0730 ex ABR at MCH
0635 MCH to Aberystwyth = 1 unit then forms 0730 to INTL joins with 0646 ex Barmouth at MCH
0647 MCH to Pwllhwli = 1 unit then forms 0934 to INTL
0807 MCH to Aberystwyth = 1 unit then forms 0930 to INTL joins up with 0624 ex New St in ABR
0629 Pwllheli to MCH = 1 unit then forms 0905 MCH to Pwllheli

 

[jones_bangor]

One option for Aberystwyth, maybe for the future, is a morning service to Euston via Shrewsbury, and evening return?

I understand the RA of a class 221 means they could reach Aberystwyth.

Just a thought?

 

[Rhydgaled]

I understand the RA of a class 221 means they could reach Aberystwyth.

The lack of ERTMS of a class 221 means they couldn't. And in the longer terms Virgin might replace the 221s with new Pendolinos.

 

[PHILIPE]

Definitely 7 starters at Mach and 1 at Pwllheli.

0435 MCH to Aberystwyth = 2 units then forms the 0514 to INTL
0513 MCH to Pwllheli = 1 unit then forms 0720 Pwllheli to INTL
0530 MCH to Barmouth = 1 unit then forms 0646 to INTL joins with 0730 ex ABR at MCH
0635 MCH to Aberystwyth = 1 unit then forms 0730 to INTL joins with 0646 ex Barmouth at MCH
0647 MCH to Pwllhwli = 1 unit then forms 0934 to INTL
0807 MCH to Aberystwyth = 1 unit then forms 0930 to INTL joins up with 0624 ex New St in ABR
0629 Pwllheli to MCH = 1 unit then forms 0905 MCH to Pwllheli

Correction, 6 Monday only and reduce my Shrewsbury figure by 1. On Mondays 05 14 Aber to B'ham Intl attaches at Shrewsbury rather than 2 throughout.

 

[merlodlliw]

It goes to Cheltenham rather than this coming from Maesteg more due to operating reasons regarding Platform Occupation at Cardiff Central. We have an additional 15 10 Swansea to Chester (formally Gerallts time) which has to be accomodated so the Fishguard keeps on going as it can't reverse back out.
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Holyhead 2
Chester 3
Crewe 2
Shrewsbury 4
Pwllheli 1
Machynlleth 6
Cardiff 1
Carmarthen 1

Total 20

Have you taken into account the four units of 158s that run the 0712 Chester to Man Picc. Plus the the 4 unit 158 that makes up the 0740 CTR(ex Llandudno) to Picc,

 

[Gareth Marston]

Correction, 6 Monday only and reduce my Shrewsbury figure by 1. On Mondays 05 14 Aber to B'ham Intl attaches at Shrewsbury rather than 2 throughout.

I've seen people from Welshpool stand on the 0514 on Mondays, its quiter mid week when it has more carriages, a lot of regulars get off at Shrewsbury and transfer onto the 0714 London Midland train. Officially the 0514 arrives Salop at 0711 and goes forward at 0733 but in practice its usually arrives at 0703 most mornings. It's crush load from Telford to New St.
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Have you taken into account the four units of 158s that run the 0712 Chester to Man Picc. Plus the the 4 unit 158 that makes up the 0740 CTR(ex Llandudno) to Picc,

I think there 4 carriages not 4 unit trains.

 

[PHILIPE]

Have you taken into account the four units of 158s that run the 0712 Chester to Man Picc. Plus the the 4 unit 158 that makes up the 0740 CTR(ex Llandudno) to Picc,

Yes. The 07 12 Chester is formed by 1x158 stabled and the other off 05 20 ex Salop. The 07 40 is booked a 3 coach 175 whatever could work it in practice.

 

[merlodlliw]

I think there 4 carriages not 4 unit trains.

[/QUOTE]

Yes Sometimes I get confused between units & carriages,ill taLK carriages in future.
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Yes. The 07 12 Chester is formed by 1x158 stabled and the other off 05 20 ex Salop. The 07 40 is booked a 3 coach 175 whatever could work it in practice.

agreed the Shrewsbury 2 carriage 158 departs Wrexham at 0600,then becomes a four carriage 158 Chester to Man Picc,

According to ATW press office, the next off Chester to Man Picc,should be a four car,strengthened due to chronic overcrowding,unless this has been altered,