TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes, and I'm finding it hard to believe that it works smoothly without passengers missing where they really want to alight and extending dwell times at stops. It might work, but unless the coaches used on the examples you are describing are very different to the few I've experienced (and have grab-poles etc. to allow passengers to walk up to the front before the bus has stopped) I can't see it working smoothly. I'm happy to admit that I might be wrong in this case, but that doesn't mean I admit I am wrong.

Yes, but was it trying to be THE local bus service at the same time? There would still have been normal stopping services running shorter-distance trips, probably at a higher frequency, along the route wouldn't there?

How long are these 75-seat coaches? I think my favoriate pair of Tempos are 41-seaters and they are X1260 models (which I think means they 12.6 metres). Are you telling me you can get a greater seating capacity in a vehicle of the same length and still have decent legroom? Yes the coaches look like they have seats above the driver, but the space taken up by the luggage rack and driver's seat on the Tempos would probably only be equivalent to one row of seats.

So your logic is basically that as you haven't experienced it, it might not be true.....??? Working on that logic, as David Cameron hasn't visited Fishguard, you might decide that he might not be the UK Prime Minister, despite all the evidence that exists out there?

You've been given links to Scottish Citylink and Stagecoach routes that operate in that manner, have you not? The stuff is there in black and white but here is a link to a shot of a Volvo B9R used on the Inverness - Elgin - Huntly - Aberdeen service

http://www.flickr.com/photos/david_92/6241757453/

and this report has plenty more photos

http://61reg.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/61-trip-report-stagecoach-bluebird.html

or even better, search youtube for Stagecoach 25 and 10 in the Highlands and you can even see the machines on the road. See the territory that they travel through and are the local bus service.

Should you be amenable to some facts, the Interdecks are 15m long so no issue on the T4 or 40 (X40). Also, B9Rs are 12.6m and have a capacity of 49 on First's non toilet fitted examples, though Stagecoach also have 49 seats with a toilet.

However, and I sincerely apologise if you do have any form of condition (e.g. Aspergers) but I don't think that you are actually able to be persuaded. You can't or won't acknowledge what the actual facts are. Why, I can't fathom but you're incapable of accepting what is being told, as it is at odds to what you believe. This is despite what others say and the EVIDENCE to the contrary.

Perhaps you need to leave West Wales and actually understand how the real bus industry works? The world does not stop at Aber or Carmarthen; in fact, you'll find that is where it starts!

 

[Rhydgaled]

I didn't need the photos. I believed you when you said they use coaches (despite never having been to Scotland). I can accept that as a fact. What I can't believe is that it works smoothly, unless the services aren't like TrawsCambria or there is something about those coaches which are unlike the ones I've experienced (which is a possibility).

Should you be amenable to some facts, the Interdecks are 15m long so no issue on the T4 or 40 (X40). Also, B9Rs are 12.6m and have a capacity of 49 on First's non toilet fitted examples, though Stagecoach also have 49 seats with a toilet.

Just checked the standard seat plans for the Tempo X1260 and it has 47 (my two favoriate ones have less seats, the same as the X1200 Tempos, to gain the extra legroom). So looks like a coach with the same length and same legroom will have the same number of seats. That's unsuprising, but it does mean a coach will either have to be longer than the Tempos or allow standing passengers if you are to be sure of not leaving passengers behind (standing is rare on the 40 and X50 in my experience, but unfortunately I think it does happen occasionally). How long are the coaches used on the 701 and 20 services?

I don't think that you are actually able to be persuaded.

I can, sometimes, to a limited extent. eg. IEP, I have been pursauded that 26m carriages are a good idea when you're conducting clearance works for electrification and possible a larger freight guage. However I still don't think 26m carriages being ordered in large numbers for non-electrified lines is a good idea. I've been pursuaded that some bi-mode IEPs are a necessary evil, but not in the numbers ordered.

Perhaps you need to leave West Wales and actually understand how the real bus industry works? The world does not stop at Aber or Carmarthen; in fact, you'll find that is where it starts!

I do leave Wales occasionally, but when I do it is by train or car.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I didn't need the photos. I believed you when you said they use coaches (despite never having been to Scotland). I can accept that as a fact. What I can't believe is that it works smoothly, unless the services aren't like TrawsCambria or there is something about those coaches which are unlike the ones I've experienced (which is a possibility).

Just checked the standard seat plans for the Tempo X1260 and it has 47 (my two favoriate ones have less seats, the same as the X1200 Tempos, to gain the extra legroom). So looks like a coach with the same length and same legroom will have the same number of seats. That's unsuprising, but it does mean a coach will either have to be longer than the Tempos or allow standing passengers if you are to be sure of not leaving passengers behind (standing is rare on the 40 and X50 in my experience, but unfortunately I think it does happen occasionally). How long are the coaches used on the 701 and 20 services?

I can, sometimes, to a limited extent. eg. IEP, I have been pursauded that 26m carriages are a good idea when you're conducting clearance works for electrification and possible a larger freight guage. However I still don't think 26m carriages being ordered in large numbers for non-electrified lines is a good idea. I've been pursuaded that some bi-mode IEPs are a necessary evil, but not in the numbers ordered.

I do leave Wales occasionally, but when I do it is by train or car.

Believe me. There's nothing much different in travelling through places like Huntly and Keith, as opposed to Aberaeron and Lampeter. Basically a lot of fields and the occasional village punctuated with some very small market towns

The Interdecks that Anthony mentioned could be specified for something like the T4 or what replaces the 40. The 15m length isn't a problem, especially as Bwcabus does a lot of the small, tight villages around Llandysul or Llanybydder. Specify a batch with say 60 seats incl. tables and you still have more seats (25% more) than now so should easier cope with any possible overloads. Think the Arriva Daf coaches are 12.6m too but I stand to be corrected on that.

Dropped you a PM on other stuff

 

[Rhydgaled]

The Interdecks that Anthony mentioned could be specified for something like the T4 or what replaces the 40. The 15m length isn't a problem, especially as Bwcabus does a lot of the small, tight villages around Llandysul or Llanybydder. Specify a batch with say 60 seats incl. tables and you still have more seats (25% more) than now so should easier cope with any possible overloads. Think the Arriva Daf coaches are 12.6m too but I stand to be corrected on that.

As regards length, my main concern is some of the roundabouts in Aberystwyth. That's why I asked how long the 20 and 701 are, as if they were 15m it would show that was possible on the route.

That said, if the proposed T5 goes ahead as currently planned I doubt you would be able to use anything longer than 12.6m vehicles on it becuase of lower Fishguard. The other day I heard one of the drivers complaining about getting the X1260 Tempos through there.

I personally think the T5 would be a mistake though, much too indirect. In my opinion they should either do Aberystwyth to Goodwick (Fishguard Harbour) instead (which would involve lower Fishguard) or go the quick way from Cardigan to Haverfordwest over the mountains.

 

[anthony263]

One of the coaches operated by Bryans coaches I think is 15m long.

I will ask on the Welsh bus newsgroup

 

[Robertj21a]

I didn't need the photos. I believed you when you said they use coaches (despite never having been to Scotland). I can accept that as a fact. What I can't believe is that it works smoothly, unless the services aren't like TrawsCambria or there is something about those coaches which are unlike the ones I've experienced (which is a possibility).


I'm beginning to wonder if you're doing this for your own amusement or whether you really don't understand.

Coaches operate a number of regular interurban services across England and Scotland. They are very efficient, popular with passengers and stop wherever required (within reason). They come in various lengths and specifications so operators will select the most suitable for the route conditions.

There is no reason at all why they wouldn't work in Wales.

If you're really not just trying to wind people up, I'd seriously suggest that you get away from Wales and see some real life.

Robert
.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I didn't need the photos. I believed you when you said they use coaches (despite never having been to Scotland). I can accept that as a fact. What I can't believe is that it works smoothly, unless the services aren't like TrawsCambria or there is something about those coaches which are unlike the ones I've experienced (which is a possibility).


I'm beginning to wonder if you're doing this for your own amusement or whether you really don't understand.

Coaches operate a number of regular interurban services across England and Scotland. They are very efficient, popular with passengers and stop wherever required (within reason). They come in various lengths and specifications so operators will select the most suitable for the route conditions.

There is no reason at all why they wouldn't work in Wales.

If you're really not just trying to wind people up, I'd seriously suggest that you get away from Wales and see some real life.

Robert
.

I've had a PM with our Welsh colleague. I don't believe it's a malicious wind-up or trolling or deliberately obtuse.

He's just an person whose actual knowledge of bus operation outside his geographic boundaries (that are themselves small) is fairly limited. This naturally influences his views but to an extreme level (i.e. it's a challenge to understand what happens outside this geographic area).

It might be a bit frustrating for those of us with more experience of life, love and Leyland Tigers, but we all began somewhere and accrued our knowledge from exploring. Lord, I started out on dual purpose REs......I'm old now :eek:

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Yes, and I'm finding it hard to believe that it works smoothly without passengers missing where they really want to alight and extending dwell times at stops. It might work, but unless the coaches used on the examples you are describing are very different to the few I've experienced (and have grab-poles etc. to allow passengers to walk up to the front before the bus has stopped) I can't see it working smoothly. I'm happy to admit that I might be wrong in this case, but that doesn't mean I admit I am wrong....

you can't see how it could work without passengers missing their stop?

may I respectfully suggest you go out and try the one service in Wales that fits the scenario everyone else on here is talking about... ie the 701...

I did the other day and believe me the concept can and DOES work... dwell times were no longer than on ordinary services (remember passengers are these days requested to remain seated until the bus stops on ALL services.

every passenger who boarded was asked by the driver where they wanted... if a village they requested had more than one stop then they were asked which stop in the village they wanted.

the driver then proceeded to stop at every stop that had been requested without further prompting.... on the couple of occasions that the bell was rung the driver called back "don't worry I hadn't forgotten you".

it was an amazing experience being on an limited stop coach service that had the atmosphere of a village bus with the driver knowing all his regulars...

one further point... you seem to work from the assumption that ALL drivers are mindless idiots that can't remember what was said to them 5 seconds ago let alone 2 hours ago...

again I say... try the concept before closing your mind to the possibility that it might work.

as to your fixation with the tempo's here's a thought for you... how would you feel if you booked to go from swansea to london and instead of your nice hst you got a sprinter or pacer (which were both based on leyland national buses) I think you might have a few things to say to First Great Western on the matter!

 

[Robertj21a]

I've had a PM with our Welsh colleague. I don't believe it's a malicious wind-up or trolling or deliberately obtuse.

He's just an person whose actual knowledge of bus operation outside his geographic boundaries (that are themselves small) is fairly limited. This naturally influences his views but to an extreme level (i.e. it's a challenge to understand what happens outside this geographic area).

It might be a bit frustrating for those of us with more experience of life, love and Leyland Tigers, but we all began somewhere and accrued our knowledge from exploring. Lord, I started out on dual purpose REs......I'm old now :eek:

Good, it's reassuring to better understand where he's coming from. With that much of a sheltered lifestyle I can more readily understand his concerns.

As everyone keep saying, he really does need to get out into the wider world !

Robert

 

[Rhydgaled]

Coaches operate a number of regular interurban services across England and Scotland. They are very efficient, popular with passengers

That I don't doubt.

and stop wherever required (within reason).

I can accept that some operators may try to use coaches on such services. However, I cannot believe that it works smoothly.

They come in various lengths and specifications so operators will select the most suitable for the route conditions.

Do operators intentionally order coaches for short-distance town service work? If not, why have the few coaches I have traveled on all been unsuitable for long-distance work?

There is no reason at all why they wouldn't work in Wales.

I'm not saying they couldn't. I'm not sure if they would work on certain types of service, but they certainly could work in Wales given the right sort of service.

He's just an person whose actual knowledge of bus operation outside his geographic boundaries (that are themselves small) is fairly limited. This naturally influences his views but to an extreme level (i.e. it's a challenge to understand what happens outside this geographic area).

Indeed. When I leave Wales, which isn't very often, I very rarely use buses.

you can't see how it could work without passengers missing their stop?

Without some passengers who want to alight away from a recognised stop missing where they want to get off. It would work for the majority, but I wouldn't be confident that things wouldn't go wrong very occasionally.

I did the other day and believe me the concept can and DOES work... dwell times were no longer than on ordinary services (remember passengers are these days requested to remain seated until the bus stops on ALL services.

Passengers may be asked to stay seated, but a fair few ignore that. Staying seated isn't (as far as I know) a legal requirement (unlike wearing seatbelts, yet alot of passengers don't seem to wear them).

one further point... you seem to work from the assumption that ALL drivers are mindless idiots that can't remember what was said to them 5 seconds ago let alone 2 hours ago...

If I was told a place name once by 30 pepole I don't think I would remember all of them an hour later. I'd probably forget a fair few within five minutes. Maybe I should have more confidence in other's memory than I have in my own memory?

The reason I don't believe a coach that forbids standing while the vehicle is in motion can work is that I believe it to be impossible to be 100% sure that the driver will always remember where everyone wants to alight. Sure you might be able to solve it with technology (an idea that came to me was an intercom button next to the bell button), but as far as I know it hasn't been done.

I can believe coaches are used on hail-and-ride services because I know it is perfectly possible to use unsuitable vehicles on a service. I can't believe coaches work well on hail-and-ride services because that implies the drivers having a flawless memory, something which I believe is impossible. Some drivers already seem to have a near-superhuman ability to drive long buses through tight spaces, having superhuman memory abilities too would be rather incredible.

how would you feel if you booked to go from swansea to london and instead of your nice hst you got a sprinter or pacer (which were both based on leyland national buses) I think you might have a few things to say to First Great Western on the matter!

And your point is? I'm annoyed enough that the Fishguard boat train is a 150 not a 158 but I don't see what that has to do with buses and coaches.

may I respectfully suggest you go out and try the one service in Wales that fits the scenario everyone else on here is talking about... ie the 701...

Some earlier posts had already prompted me to investigate whether I could use either the 701 or the 20 for part of my journey to/from university one day, but the times aren't convenient for me to do that.

As everyone keep saying, he really does need to get out into the wider world

I do sometimes, just not by bus. Occasionally I go with other members of my family to visit my grandfather in Hampshire, but they normally insist we go by car (I tend to suggest going by train). I occasionally will take a holiday by rail to explore lines I haven't travelled on (normally with my grandmother as the rest of my family are too busy and/or less tollerant of roming the rails). As part of my university course I was based in the Manchester area on an industrial placement and we would go on rail trips from there at the weekends. We only used the bus once (because Metrolink was packed).

 

[anthony263]

A lot of coaches I have been on have been equipped with buzzers above the passengers head or by the window close to waist level especially the front 4 seats closest to the driver.

In scotland and Cornwall coaches are used on some services because they are long distance and serve a lot of rural communities.

Western Greyhoud used to operated some services with coaches before driver hours legislation forced long distance routes to be split into seperate services even if they are worked by the same vehicle/driver.

Veolia used to operate a small depot in Crossgates near Llandrindod and ran some long distance services using an optare solo (bad idea in my opinion).

coaches do have an advantage in that they have more lugguage space available which is useful on certain routes such as the 701 or T4.

The X4 Cardiff - Merthyr Tydfil - Abergavenny - Hereford used to be operated by coaches by Stagecoach in fact Stagecoach do still use coaches on service X3/X33 Cardiff - Abergavenny.

Shamrock used to operate Leyland Tigers on some of the local services around Bridgend and the south wales valleys

 

[Robertj21a]

That I don't doubt. I can accept that some operators may try to use coaches on such services. However, I cannot believe that it works smoothly.

Do operators intentionally order coaches for short-distance town service work? If not, why have the few coaches I have traveled on all been unsuitable for long-distance work?

I'm not saying they couldn't. I'm not sure if they would work on certain types of service, but they certainly could work in Wales given the right sort of service.

Indeed. When I leave Wales, which isn't very often, I very rarely use buses.

Without some passengers who want to alight away from a recognised stop missing where they want to get off. It would work for the majority, but I wouldn't be confident that things wouldn't go wrong very occasionally.

Passengers may be asked to stay seated, but a fair few ignore that. Staying seated isn't (as far as I know) a legal requirement (unlike wearing seatbelts, yet alot of passengers don't seem to wear them).

If I was told a place name once by 30 pepole I don't think I would remember all of them an hour later. I'd probably forget a fair few within five minutes. Maybe I should have more confidence in other's memory than I have in my own memory?

The reason I don't believe a coach that forbids standing while the vehicle is in motion can work is that I believe it to be impossible to be 100% sure that the driver will always remember where everyone wants to alight. Sure you might be able to solve it with technology (an idea that came to me was an intercom button next to the bell button), but as far as I know it hasn't been done.

I can believe coaches are used on hail-and-ride services because I know it is perfectly possible to use unsuitable vehicles on a service. I can't believe coaches work well on hail-and-ride services because that implies the drivers having a flawless memory, something which I believe is impossible. Some drivers already seem to have a near-superhuman ability to drive long buses through tight spaces, having superhuman memory abilities too would be rather incredible.

And your point is? I'm annoyed enough that the Fishguard boat train is a 150 not a 158 but I don't see what that has to do with buses and coaches.

Some earlier posts had already prompted me to investigate whether I could use either the 701 or the 20 for part of my journey to/from university one day, but the times aren't convenient for me to do that.

I do sometimes, just not by bus. Occasionally I go with other members of my family to visit my grandfather in Hampshire, but they normally insist we go by car (I tend to suggest going by train). I occasionally will take a holiday by rail to explore lines I haven't travelled on (normally with my grandmother as the rest of my family are too busy and/or less tollerant of roming the rails). As part of my university course I was based in the Manchester area on an industrial placement and we would go on rail trips from there at the weekends. We only used the bus once (because Metrolink was packed).

The more I read from you the more it seems that you are destined for an on-going very sheltered life. Heaven forbid what will happen when something really important or serious heads your way !

Robert
.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Indeed. When I leave Wales, which isn't very often, I very rarely use buses.

Some earlier posts had already prompted me to investigate whether I could use either the 701 or the 20 for part of my journey to/from university one day, but the times aren't convenient for me to do that.

I do sometimes, just not by bus. Occasionally I go with other members of my family to visit my grandfather in Hampshire, but they normally insist we go by car (I tend to suggest going by train). I occasionally will take a holiday by rail to explore lines I haven't travelled on (normally with my grandmother as the rest of my family are too busy and/or less tollerant of roming the rails). As part of my university course I was based in the Manchester area on an industrial placement and we would go on rail trips from there at the weekends. We only used the bus once (because Metrolink was packed).

I think your reply here shows your problem with understanding the concept we are all talking about... you wish to pontificate on what does and does not work with buses and coaches without having any first hand knowledge of the subject...

you've never tried using the 701 or 20 because the times are inconvenient? don't you have days off when you could go for a wander and test your theories?

And your point is? I'm annoyed enough that the Fishguard boat train is a 150 not a 158 but I don't see what that has to do with buses and coaches.

equate hst for coach ie a vehicle designed for long distance limited stop work

equate sprinter or pacer for low floor bus (such as tempo) designed to stop every stop and not travel much faster than the proverbial carthorse...

NOW do you see the point I was making?

probably not... you seem determined to believe the earth is flat despite all the evidence being that it is round!

 

[Rhydgaled]

what does and does not work with buses and coaches without having any first hand knowledge of the subject...

No first hand knowledge? I've done four and a little bit academic years 'commuting' to college/university by bus (though not always as many as 5 days a week). Coaches I have very little experience of yes, but not none at all. I have travelled on coaches a handful of times (one of the most recent being on a Mid Wales Travel Aberystwyth university town service, probably in the 2011/12 academic year).

you've never tried using the 701 or 20 because the times are inconvenient? don't you have days off when you could go for a wander and test your theories?

I've never tried using them because I've never had any wish to do so. Now that you and others are suggesting I should give coaches another chance I had a look at the times to see if I could fit a ride into my commute without extending it too much, and I can't.

equate hst for coach ie a vehicle designed for long distance limited stop work

equate sprinter or pacer for low floor bus (such as tempo) designed to stop every stop and not travel much faster than the proverbial carthorse...

Right, low-floor bus designed to stop at every stop and coach designed for long-distance limited stop work. Now do you see why I'm not sure a coach is right for a hail-and-ride service? Not just stop at every stop, stop abolutely anywhere whether it is a stop or not.

Yes, for a long-distance limited stop service you use a coach. As I've already said, a Cardiff - Newtown limited stop coach would probably be a good idea. The Cardiff - Aberystwyth service, if that is a good idea in itself (there's a grossly underused rail link from Carmarthen to Cardiff (and when I say underused, I'm not talking about the route via Swansea)) should also be a coach, and limited-stop.

TrawsCambria though may be long distance, but it isn't limited stop. Using your rail analogy, neither the HST nor the Pacer is ideal for a long-distance service with a fair number of stops. You need something in between, like a 158/159 or 175 maybe. What's a halfway house between a coach and low-floor town bus?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You don't make things easy for yourself, do you?

There are people who HAVE travelled on the 701 who tell you IT WORKS. There are people who have travelled on similar services who tell you IT WORKS.

You, by your own admission, haven't tried the 701 or other services for various reasons. You may have your own valid reasons for that, and I'm not to judge. However, you can't then say that your OPINION is more valid that the FACTS. If people who HAVE experience tell you that it works, ACCEPT IT unless you can provide evidence to the contrary (which you can't).

I've travelled on all the TC routes except the X50. I've also travelled on the X5 (both in Cumbria and Oxford to Cambridge. I've travelled on the old 383 when that was the only bus service serving the Scottish Borders from Jedburgh through to Newcastle Airport. Coaches can easily operate in that fashion and people don't override by two miles.

In short, it doesn't matter if you think otherwise. You may think the world is flat. However, you'd be incorrect on both counts. The world is round and coaches can be used on long distance inter-urban services that act as hail and ride.

Also, I think Teflon Lettuce was suggesting that you should expand your knowledge. You have lectures 5 x days. Perhaps a trip out on a Saturday? You say you've never had a wish to try the 701.... fair enough, but then don't ignore the evidence of those people who have vs. your imaginings.

 

[Rhydgaled]

There are people who HAVE travelled on the 701 who tell you IT WORKS. There are people who have travelled on similar services who tell you IT WORKS.

I can accept there may be something I am not aware of which makes them work, but I cannot fathom what that something might be* and nobody has explained what that something is. The nearest that anyone has come to this is suggesting that it relies on the driver's memory. Human memories aren't perfect (or at least mine isn't) so I'm not sure that can actually be relied upon. Sure it might work alot of the time with regular passengers that the drivers recognise, but there's a first time for everything, including regular journeys.

* something like an intercomm or coaches with grab-rails which allow standing passengers perhaps?

The world is round and coaches can be used on long distance inter-urban services that act as hail and ride.

I can't argue with that, and I don't think I was. What I doubt is that using coaches on hail & ride services works well. Once again:

equate hst for coach ie a vehicle designed for long distance limited stop work

So a coach is designed for limited stop work. Hail & ride is the opposite of limited stop. The decision of what to use on the X40/TC1, X94 and TC4 therefore isn't clear cut, because:

1. They are long-distance which suggests a coach with improved legroom etc. would be the ideal vehicle for the job
2. They are not limited-stop, which suggests a low-floor bus would be appropriate

The two factors are contradictory, so I suggest some sort of compromise between a low floor bus and a coach is necessary.

A coach that allows passengers to get up and move around while the vehicle is in motion might be the answer. Do such things exist?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I can accept there may be something I am not aware of which makes them work, but I cannot fathom what that something might be* and nobody has explained what that something is. The nearest that anyone has come to this is suggesting that it relies on the driver's memory. Human memories aren't perfect (or at least mine isn't) so I'm not sure that can actually be relied upon. Sure it might work alot of the time with regular passengers that the drivers recognise, but there's a first time for everything, including regular journeys.

* something like an intercomm or coaches with grab-rails which allow standing passengers perhaps?

I can't argue with that, and I don't think I was. What I doubt is that using coaches on hail & ride services works well. Once again:
So a coach is designed for limited stop work. Hail & ride is the opposite of limited stop. The decision of what to use on the X40/TC1, X94 and TC4 therefore isn't clear cut, because:

1. They are long-distance which suggests a coach with improved legroom etc. would be the ideal vehicle for the job
2. They are not limited-stop, which suggests a low-floor bus would be appropriate

The two factors are contradictory, so I suggest some sort of compromise between a low floor bus and a coach is necessary.

A coach that allows passengers to get up and move around while the vehicle is in motion might be the answer. Do such things exist?

"I can accept there may be something I am not aware of which makes them work, but I cannot fathom what that something might be* and nobody has explained what that something is. "

Sorry but this has been explained to you several times. Bell pushes located above people's heads (or adjacent to window on the first row of seats) to advise the driver that you wish to alight. No different from a bus. Except, of course, the ride quality is much better, as are the views. Oh, and the ability to carry more luggage which is a real advantage on something like the X40 (20) when students are returning home at the end of term.

FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME, there are loads of examples whereby they operate HAIL AND RIDE with COACHES. For pity's sake, follow this link http://www.citylink.co.uk/timetables/5993 GLA-CAM TIMETABLE 4pp.pdf

It says that between Balloch and Campbeltown, Service 926 will pick up at all the stops listed above and all bus stops and intermediate points where it is safe for the coach to stop following a clear signal being given by the intending passenger NOT for example in the vicinity of a bend or dip in the roadwhereby the drivers view of other traffic is obstructed. That's 114 miles of hail and ride where it is the local bus service, just as YOU have specified. Alternatively, the Cumbrian X5 is only 39 miles but is also hail and ride all the way for 39 miles (which is less than Aber to Carmarthen). It works well, as it does in the Grampian Region, as it does on Stagecoach services north of Inverness, as it does in the Midlands.

Now, I'll be direct. If you continue to say "I don't believe it" despite overwhelming proof being spoonfed to you then sorry, but there really isn't a point in you posting stuff.

I can understand why you might not know things. That's fine; we all have our blind spots. You have opinions - well that's fine too. However, to get 4 people to take the time to explain things, and then say, "sorry, I can't see how the world is round 'cos it isn't when I look out the window in Fishguard" is really, really frustrating.

I, and I'm sure others, don't mind helping you fill in your knowledge gaps, but if you can't take the facts we give on board, then there really isn't much point in you posing questions.

If you only wish to pose questions in the hope of only getting the response you want, then prepare for disappointment.

The futility of this thread.....

 

[Rhydgaled]

"I can accept there may be something I am not aware of which makes them work, but I cannot fathom what that something might be* and nobody has explained what that something is. "

Sorry but this has been explained to you several times. Bell pushes located above people's heads (or adjacent to window on the first row of seats) to advise the driver that you wish to alight.

I have seen a number of cases on buses where passengers have stood next to the driver and told them where to stop. I feel that small number of those would not have got their stop if they had relied on the bell or the driver's memory. I can understand that the bell works for the vast majority of passengers, but for unmarked bus stops I'm not sure how it works. Maybe it does since everyone else seems to think so.

No different from a bus. Except, of course, the ride quality is much better, as are the views. Oh, and the ability to carry more luggage which is a real advantage on something like the X40 (20) when students are returning home at the end of term.

Have you not noticed that my more recent posts are starting to accept that coaches are better for long distance services? That was not a view I would have supported at the beginning of the topic because all the coaches I've ever been on have not had enough legroom for a long journey and I assumed (wrongly, I'm now willing to accept given I have been told you can specify them with decent legroom) that the manufactuers always crammed in the maximum number of seats.

FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME, there are loads of examples whereby they operate HAIL AND RIDE with COACHES.

I have already said that I accept that as a fact.

A class 150 doesn't really work on the Fishguard boat train, it doesn't stop the use of 150s on that service being a fact.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I have seen a number of cases on buses where passengers have stood next to the driver and told them where to stop. I feel that small number of those would not have got their stop if they had relied on the bell or the driver's memory. I can understand that the bell works for the vast majority of passengers, but for unmarked bus stops I'm not sure how it works. Maybe it does since everyone else seems to think so.

Have you not noticed that my more recent posts are starting to accept that coaches are better for long distance services? That was not a view I would have supported at the beginning of the topic because all the coaches I've ever been on have not had enough legroom for a long journey and I assumed (wrongly, I'm now willing to accept given I have been told you can specify them with decent legroom) that the manufactuers always crammed in the maximum number of seats.

I have already said that I accept that as a fact.

A class 150 doesn't really work on the Fishguard boat train, it doesn't stop the use of 150s on that service being a fact.

Yes but the line ""I can accept there may be something I am not aware of which makes them work, but I cannot fathom what that something might be* and nobody has explained what that something is. " when it has been explained several times.

Also, how did assume that manufacturers always crammed in the same number of seats. By your own admission, you always go on about how the Richard Bros Tempos have fewer seats and more legroom.....

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes but the line ""I can accept there may be something I am not aware of which makes them work, but I cannot fathom what that something might be* and nobody has explained what that something is. " when it has been explained several times.

No, unless I missed it, nobody has explained how, when the bell is pushed, the driver knows whether the passenger wants to stop NOW or at the next marked stop.

Alternatively, if the driver is expected to remember where every passenger wants to alight then I don't know if that can be relied upon. There is the question of how the passenger explains where they want to get off, one farm gate is much like another for example, how would the driver know which one?

Also, how did assume that manufacturers always crammed in the same number of seats. By your own admission, you always go on about how the Richard Bros Tempos have fewer seats and more legroom.....

Yes, two of them do. So I can't understand why, whenever I've used coaches (which are supposedly built for long-distance work) they have not had decent legroom.

It would be rather odd if the option of decent legroom wasn't available on coaches. However, assuming that option is available why would any other option be selected since coaches are meant for long journeys?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

No, unless I missed it, nobody has explained how, when the bell is pushed, the driver knows whether the passenger wants to stop NOW or at the next marked stop.

Alternatively, if the driver is expected to remember where every passenger wants to alight then I don't know if that can be relied upon. There is the question of how the passenger explains where they want to get off, one farm gate is much like another for example, how would the driver know which one?

Yes, two of them do. So I can't understand why, whenever I've used coaches (which are supposedly built for long-distance work) they have not had decent legroom.

It would be rather odd if the option of decent legroom wasn't available on coaches. However, assuming that option is available why would any other option be selected since coaches are meant for long journeys?

Because in the situation that a passenger pushes the bell push, the bell sounds. That's quite a big clue..... Where there is no recognised flag, the driver will usually pull in at the nearest available safe place.

However, in many areas (and Teflon Lettuce is correct), the patterns of travel are so established that drivers DO know where passengers get on/off. My dad was a bus driver in rural areas and they get to know he knew where each little old lady go on or off. Also, some passengers will actually say when they get on "can you drop me off at x" as well as still ringing the bell.

As for specifying number of seats....does this really need explaining? Do we really need to talk about capacity vs frequency vs price vs everything else? If we have to explain the economics of bus operation, then there is little else to be said

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I can accept there may be something I am not aware of which makes them work, but I cannot fathom what that something might be* and nobody has explained what that something is. The nearest that anyone has come to this is suggesting that it relies on the driver's memory. Human memories aren't perfect (or at least mine isn't) so I'm not sure that can actually be relied upon. Sure it might work alot of the time with regular passengers that the drivers recognise, but there's a first time for everything, including regular journeys.

* something like an intercomm or coaches with grab-rails which allow standing passengers perhaps?

I can't argue with that, and I don't think I was. What I doubt is that using coaches on hail & ride services works well. Once again:
So a coach is designed for limited stop work. Hail & ride is the opposite of limited stop. The decision of what to use on the X40/TC1, X94 and TC4 therefore isn't clear cut, because:

1. They are long-distance which suggests a coach with improved legroom etc. would be the ideal vehicle for the job
2. They are not limited-stop, which suggests a low-floor bus would be appropriate

The two factors are contradictory, so I suggest some sort of compromise between a low floor bus and a coach is necessary.

A coach that allows passengers to get up and move around while the vehicle is in motion might be the answer. Do such things exist?

Look no-one is suggesting that any service that coaches are on are a hail and ride service... you are confusing 2 concepts.

hail and ride was introduced in towns during the 1980's with the advent of minibuses.

what we are all talking about with long distance bus/ coach services is vehicles which stop at recognised stops INCLUDING custom and practise stops.

outside of towns and main villages there are no bus stops and over the years it becomes custom and practise that vehicles will stop at certain places.. in a few towns there would be one main bus stop with all other stops being on a custom and practise basis.

some examples on the 20/40/701 route between aber and carmarthen:

lon rhydygwin, morfa bychan turn, lampeter (murco garage), carmarthen (Ivy bush hotel)... until recently lampeter (tregaron turn) and the whole of alltyblacca was without bus stops and were also on a custom and practise basis.

again I join with others in exhorting you to try a service (such as 20/701) that fits the criteria we are all talking about before you pontificate on what will and won't work!

the world is not flat and a limited stop coach service can be operated like a village bus service.

here's one final thought on the matter... if coaches CANNOT work on long distance bus services why was Barton for many years the largest independant operator in the uk? and guess what they used on ordinary bus services as well as limited stop services..... yes you've guessed it.... COACHES!

 

[tbtc]

Just a thought, but given that there are thousands of miles of "hail and ride" services operated by coaches in the UK every day, if there were passengers being carried two miles beyond their intended stop, do you not think it'd be in the press?

"OUTRAGE AS LOCAL GRANNY DUMPED MILES FROM HOME" etc

Truth is, it works fine - maybe it doesn't appear to work on paper, but it does in reality.

 

[Late Trains uk]

I wonder if the OP has traveled on the 50 service to Synod Inn/New Quay recently?
As this is a Coach and far more welcome than a ordinary service Bus.As it is a Holiday destination it is better equipped for luggage.(I do not know if it has an on-board bog)
The last time a local AM kicked up a fuss about the Aber-Cardiff service was when the Coach was replaced by a Bus as it's far too uncomfortable even too Carmarthen and totally inadequate if you have young children.
If the frequency of the service too Carmarthen and back is cut further then they will have to use Coaches unless the Driver is willing to stop on route for Toilet breaks.(even though they do in Lampeter at times).
And if the OP is concerned about People missing stops due to the nature of getting on and off a Coach then why hasn't he got the same concerns with Double Deckers which are as difficult or more awkward than a Coach even with a Bell?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Look no-one is suggesting that any service that coaches are on are a hail and ride service... you are confusing 2 concepts.

hail and ride was introduced in towns during the 1980's with the advent of minibuses.

what we are all talking about with long distance bus/ coach services is vehicles which stop at recognised stops INCLUDING custom and practise stops.

outside of towns and main villages there are no bus stops and over the years it becomes custom and practise that vehicles will stop at certain places.. in a few towns there would be one main bus stop with all other stops being on a custom and practise basis.

some examples on the 20/40/701 route between aber and carmarthen:

lon rhydygwin, morfa bychan turn, lampeter (murco garage), carmarthen (Ivy bush hotel)... until recently lampeter (tregaron turn) and the whole of alltyblacca was without bus stops and were also on a custom and practise basis.

Could you clarify that please? Are you saying that coaches are never used on hail&ride services? That the services others refered to in Scotland etc. which use coaches are actually operating on an 'all-recognised-stops' basis*?

* where 'all-recognised-stops' includes certain unmarked but well known customary stopping points

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Could you clarify that please? Are you saying that coaches are never used on hail&ride services? That the services others refered to in Scotland etc. which use coaches are actually operating on an 'all-recognised-stops' basis*?

* where 'all-recognised-stops' includes certain unmarked but well known customary stopping points

No I am NOT saying that... coaches can and have been used on hail and ride minibus services... just as I have frequently seen mini/ midi buses operating limited stop "coach" services.

what I AM saying is that you are confusing 2 seperate types of operation. what we are all talking about on here are long distance bus routes running through sparsely populated areas that will stop on an "all stops" basis... including any place where it is safe to stop when there are no regular bus stops provided.

I really can't make it any clearer than that and I am rapidly forming the opinion that in fact you fully understand exactly what we are all saying to you but that you are being deliberately obtuse and vexatious because the truth and the facts do not fit with your blinkered view of the world.

therefore, until such time as you can demonstrate that you have tested your theories by trying some of the suggested routes given to you I will not enter any further discussion on the matter with yourself... and I would strongly suggest that all other members on here do the same!

 

[anthony263]

I have seen coaches used on hail & ride services on a number of occasions.

Service 73 Pyle Railway Station - Bridgend via Ffordd-Y-Gyfraith which operates on tuesdays and fridays has been worked by a variety of vehicles over the years including some coaches.

60-60 coaches used to operate their service 470 Brecon - Cardiff using full length coaches which would pick up and set down where it was safe to do so especially on the section between Brecon and Merthyr Tydfil.

First Cymru used coaches on service X63 Swansea - Brecon when they ran the service briefly as have many others

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

No I am NOT saying that... coaches can and have been used on hail and ride minibus services... just as I have frequently seen mini/ midi buses operating limited stop "coach" services.

what I AM saying is that you are confusing 2 seperate types of operation. what we are all talking about on here are long distance bus routes running through sparsely populated areas that will stop on an "all stops" basis... including any place where it is safe to stop when there are no regular bus stops provided.

I really can't make it any clearer than that and I am rapidly forming the opinion that in fact you fully understand exactly what we are all saying to you but that you are being deliberately obtuse and vexatious because the truth and the facts do not fit with your blinkered view of the world.

therefore, until such time as you can demonstrate that you have tested your theories by trying some of the suggested routes given to you I will not enter any further discussion on the matter with yourself... and I would strongly suggest that all other members on here do the same!

TL - we may have had healthy debate in the past, but I can't help but agree with everything you've just said.

I've PM'd Rhydgaled and have tried to explain and educate, hopefully not in a condescending manner. I am sympathetic to his situation and appreciate that because of circumstances, his knowledge is not very extensive. However, as you've so succinctly put it, it seems that he ignores what doesn't fit with his limited, pre-formed views. Hence, I agree it is difficult if not impossible to have a reasoned debate.

We all hold our views, but if they cannot be adequately backed up by fact whilst ignoring the contrary evidence of others, then it ceases to be a worthwhile discussion.

And all because of two f*$@ing Optare Tempos on one service that isn't even that long.....

 

[Late Trains uk]

I have seen coaches used on hail & ride services on a number of occasions.

Service 73 Pyle Railway Station - Bridgend via Ffordd-Y-Gyfraith which operates on tuesdays and fridays has been worked by a variety of vehicles over the years including some coaches.

60-60 coaches used to operate their service 470 Brecon - Cardiff using full length coaches which would pick up and set down where it was safe to do so especially on the section between Brecon and Merthyr Tydfil.

First Cymru used coaches on service X63 Swansea - Brecon when they ran the service briefly as have many others

As I have mentioned before also the 50 service between Aber-Synod Inn is a Coach, which in the case of the OP appears to be in his home area and could easily be tried out and compared to a Bus

 

[Rhydgaled]

As I have mentioned before also the 50 service between Aber-Synod Inn is a Coach, which in the case of the OP appears to be in his home area and could easily be tried out and compared to a Bus

Well I was on the 50 earlier today and it most definately was not a coach. It was a Pulsar. However, I have seen a coach on the 50 before, presumably Arriva getting vehicles muddled.

No I am NOT saying that...

Good thing I checked then, as I obviously misunderstood.

what we are all talking about on here are long distance bus routes running through sparsely populated areas that will stop on an "all stops" basis... including any place where it is safe to stop when there are no regular bus stops provided.

Indeed, that is what I thought we were talking about, your previous posted seemed to suggest otherwise so I thought I'd better check. And a service that stops anywhere it is safe to do so is called a 'hail & ride' service.

I really can't make it any clearer than that and I am rapidly forming the opinion that in fact you fully understand exactly what we are all saying

I understand most of what you are saying, with a few exceptions, such as when you were on about stopping at customary points rather than anywhere safe. However I am having difficulty believing one minor point, which perhaps I am attaching rather too much importance to since it only concerns a small minority of passengers.

Say a scientist runs an experiment, he doesn't know what result to expect but there is one outcome which he believes is impossible. However, the result is the apparently impossible one, so he re-runs the experiment and gets the same seemingly impossible result. He then tries to work out what it is that makes the seemingly impossible outcome possible. That's where I'm stuck at the moment with this coach business, you are presenting reports of the impossible and I can't fathom what makes it possible.