Oyster Card - problem at STP Thameslink

[itsjamierawr]

Not really sure where to post this but on Wednesday 23rd October I had an issue with my oyster card touching out at St Pancras coming up from the FCC/Thameslink platforms.

Basically I had done:

Totteham Court Road - Shepherds Bush LU Central
Shepherds Bush - Clapham Junction LO
Clapham Junction - Waterloo SWT
Waterloo - Elephant & Castle LU Bakerloo
E & C - St Pancras FCC

In pretty much one go, I started with £7.50 at Tottenham Court Road and checked the balance everywhere I touched in/out, journey history shows this but for some reason I was charged £5 at Elephant & Castle and it didn't touch out properly at St Pancras (I was questioned for ten minutes by gateline staff about my journey history that day and told I only had 45p on my card).

I still only have 45p on my card but in theory that should be correct AFTER going through the barriers at St Pancras. From memory the error code on the barrier was 34 which is invalid/missing pre-pay validation, the only bit missing on journey history is St Pancras touching out! Can anyone explain what the hell happened with this journey, I'm trying to work out why the oyster card went wrong and what happened with E & C touching in (I used the reader on the right hand side as you walk in)

 

[bb21]

Can you upload your journey history here so we can have a detailed look?

Either a screengrab or a picture would be fine.

 

[Mojo]

Sounds to me like it would undoubtedly have tried to add it all together as one journey with 2 unresolved charges.

 

[bb21]

Sounds to me like it would undoubtedly have tried to add it all together as one journey with 2 unresolved charges.

That is my suspicion as all interchanges in the list given by the OP have OSIs and it has likely exceeded the maximum journey time for a Zone 1-2 journey.

 

[simple simon]

This is why it could be argued that Oyster is not "fit for purpose".

The system tries to be clever but through no fault of the passenger they fall foul of features they did not even realise existed.

I regularly use paper ODTC's. Its so much safer...

This is after once having found myself caught out and stranded 30+ miles from home because of journey time limits and OSI; in the end I had to go without any food all day because the money I had with me for lunch had to be spent on my Oyster card.

Perhaps I should have jumped the gates and allowed myself to be caught without a ticket - with the intent of using "not fit for purpose" as an excuse when the case reached a court of law...

The trades description legislation says that things have to be suitable for the purpose for which they are sold. Because that journey could not be made without Oyster going into 'penalty' so therefore the high-tech electronic ticketing was "not fit for purpose".

I bitterly resent the financial penalty levied on passengers who wish to avoid journey time limit, OSI, etc foibles and who buy paper tickets rather than use fares capping.

Gants Hill - Bank (barely 10 minutes outside the fares paid area to visit a local shop) - Uxbridge. When Oyster was new and all journeys had to be completed within 2 hours, irrespective of distance.

Simon

 

[bb21]

Instead of ranting, how about suggesting a workable alternative?

Not being able to satisfy everyone's travel needs does not render the product "not fit for purpose". No such thing exists that caters for every eventuality.

 

[CatfordCat]

I think the snag is that I very much doubt that Oyster PAYG was designed with a journey quite as roundabout and complex and (to quote) "in pretty much one go" as that in mind.

I would hazard a guess that very, very few passengers make that sort of journey.

Without wishing to be rude, the system was designed for people who travel for purposes, rather than for enthusiasts who want to travel a lot.

The financial "penalty" between a one day travelcard and a daily price cap appears to be in the region of 40 pence a go, which doesn't strike me as all that significant.

However, a practical work round might be the option to load a one day travelcard in advance on to an Oyster card (in the same way you can load a period travelcard on to Oyster) so that it doesn't have to try and think.

For most people, the flexibility of not having to commit in advance to an all-day ticket, but knowing the price cap will apply if you do enough travel, is the best of both worlds.

 

[Muzer]

Instead of ranting, how about suggesting a workable alternative?

Not being able to satisfy everyone's travel needs does not render the product "not fit for purpose". No such thing exists that caters for every eventuality.

I think a very easy solution would be to reset the journey time limit when an OSI is made. Alternatively, when the journey time limit would be exceeded and an OSI has been made, split the journey into two at an OSI. Presumably the journey time limit is to prevent people from not touching out or something, and ending up going from a station to a nearby station via somewhere remote where they didn't touch in/out. If you're doing OSIs, you're touching in/out anyway so the system does know where you are.



CatfordCat: I thought Oysters still charged you a journey time limit penalty even when you have a travelcard? Something along those lines at least, I might be wrong.

 

[dzug2]

However, a practical work round might be the option to load a one day travelcard in advance on to an Oyster card (in the same way you can load a period travelcard on to Oyster) so that it doesn't have to try and think.

You can't put a one day travel card on Oyster

Or are you saying that's what you ought to be able to do?

 

[CatfordCat]

CatfordCat: I thought Oysters still charged you a journey time limit penalty even when you have a travelcard? Something along those lines at least, I might be wrong.

I've never done the Travelcard + Oyster thing (I live outside Greater London), so not entirely sure.

I don't know whether the system would still bother with thinking about journey times / OSIs, or whether it would it just say to itself "this entry / exit is within the zones on the travelcard, therefore it's OK"

You can't put a one day travel card on Oyster

Or are you saying that's what you ought to be able to do?

I am saying that if this facility became available, it would resolve this problem.

 

[Mojo]

I've never done the Travelcard + Oyster thing (I live outside Greater London), so not entirely sure.

I don't know whether the system would still bother with thinking about journey times / OSIs, or whether it would it just say to itself "this entry / exit is within the zones on the travelcard, therefore it's OK"

The latter.

If you touch in or out in within your Travelcard zones then as far as the system is concerned it doesn't matter if you never touch out, or have never touched in.

You will be charged however if you touch in outside your zones and don't touch out, or if you don't touch in and touch out outside your zones. There will also be a charge if you touch in and out, but the primary route would take you outside of your zones (e.g. a Zn 2-4 holder touching in at Stratford and touching out at Holland Park (unless they also touched at both Shepherds Bush stations)).

 

[34D]

Instead of ranting, how about suggesting a workable alternative?

Not being able to satisfy everyone's travel needs does not render the product "not fit for purpose". No such thing exists that caters for every eventuality.

Arguably, some way of 'opting out' of a particular OSI would cover it (ideally, something more sophisticated than touching a bus).

 

[yorkie]

CatfordCat: I thought Oysters still charged you a journey time limit penalty even when you have a travelcard? Something along those lines at least, I might be wrong.

I am unsure what you mean by a "journey time penalty".

Each journey has a maximum time defined (depending on the number of zones travelled from, day of the week, time of travel etc) and if you exceed that time, it won't count it as one journey.

Obviously if you stay within your Zones then there is no charge made to Travelcard holders, so it's PAYG users who need to be careful to ensure the maximum journey time is not exceeded.

There's loads of info on this in our Guide to Fares & Ticketing and, in even more depth, on MikeWh's excellent Oyster Rail website.

 

[Brucey]

Alternatively, when the journey time limit would be exceeded and an OSI has been made, split the journey into two at an OSI.

This is obviously going to be the most suitable option, i.e. instead of automatically assuming an incomplete journey, determine whether an OSI has been made, recalculate the fare for the previous journey up to the OSI, then start a new journey from the OSI. However, you're then increase the calculations by two or three fold, therefore increasing the amount of time before the green light and beep. My understanding is that this amount of time is considered too long.

It isn't just enthusiasts who are affected by this problem. Many people travel for purpose where they spend a short amount of time outside the station, e.g. visiting a shop or the post office or something. This was the case on my recent identical problem at Barking: I'd travelled to buy a specific product from a specific retailer rather than for train geek purposes.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Oyster PAYG is designed for single journeys, it always has been. The OSIs exist to enable single through journeys to be made, as without them PAYG users would be charged twice every time they had to cross a gateline. Removing them would disadvantage most users of Oyster PAYG.

So long as you stay within your zones, you do not get charged a maximum fare when using a Travelcard on Oyster, although the system still registers the OSIs and records it as one journey. If you go outside your zones, or fail to touch in/touch out after going outside your zones, then it will charge a maximum fare. Maximum fares are only charged to PAYG users, including those combining Travelcards with PAYG outside their zones.

Being able to purchase a one-day Travelcard on Oyster would definitely be advantageous for those who want a rover ticket, though the cash fare for a one day Travelcard isn't much more than the Oyster price cap.

 

[jon0844]

Last week I went from Cheshunt to Earl's Court, via Liverpool Street.

At LST, I exited through the (NR) gates and had lunch nearby before going back onto the tube.

I still managed to get it counted as a single journey!

 

[simple simon]

Instead of ranting, how about suggesting a workable alternative?

Not being able to satisfy everyone's travel needs does not render the product "not fit for purpose". No such thing exists that caters for every eventuality.

My journey was not for transport geekism.

That was one of the first times I used Oyster RFID ticketing, and the journey time issue has changed since then.

I agree with others that sometimes a way of cancelling an OSI would be beneficial. Probably though TfL feel that this would be too confusing for some passengers and dont want the perceived extra hassle on their telephone helplines from people who ended the OSI in error. But this would not happen if there were grey Oystercard readers clearly marked as "OSI cancellers" located in station exit halls (eg: the walls) and not too near the ticket gates.

Anyway, the present system brings in oodles of money from maximum fares being charged, and since not everyone understands about this so do not complain so TfL ends up "quids in".

What TfL do not seem to understand is that people who have had problems in this way but do not understand why and cannot face the hassle of contacting the helpline (long waits on the phone, cost of phonr calls, etc) just see Oyster as a rip-off way of extracting extra cash from their pockets. .

Simon

 

[bb21]

The OSI cancellation machine can work, however I doubt the costs of providing them can be justified.

I previously suggested having such a function on the POMs, but was told by some LU staff that it is not possible as OSIs are only enacted once you have completed the second leg of your journey, rather than being flagged up as being a possibility after completion of the first.

 

[Tibbs]

This is obviously going to be the most suitable option, i.e. instead of automatically assuming an incomplete journey, determine whether an OSI has been made, recalculate the fare for the previous journey up to the OSI, then start a new journey from the OSI. However, you're then increase the calculations by two or three fold, therefore increasing the amount of time before the green light and beep. My understanding is that this amount of time is considered too long.

It isn't just enthusiasts who are affected by this problem. Many people travel for purpose where they spend a short amount of time outside the station, e.g. visiting a shop or the post office or something. This was the case on my recent identical problem at Barking: I'd travelled to buy a specific product from a specific retailer rather than for train geek purposes.

A friend of mine had this problem on his commute from Walthamstow to Kngston. He wanted to go avoiding Zone 1 to make it cheaper, but wound up getting charged extra each time.

TfL told him it wasn't a valid route, even using the Pink validators.

 

[455driver]

So if I put a travel card on my Oyster but use it to go from Waterloo to Woking (stopping train so no commercial guard) and then on to Brookwood (no barriers) and return about 4 hours later it will assume I have stayed within the zones and not charge me extra, is that right!

As an aside, I have had (a few) people ask me how to tap out at Guildford, Haslemere and Portsmouth Harbour, so clearly some people think Oyster is a National travelcard.

 

[bb21]

Which way did he go?

TfL's Single Fare Finder suggests that a fare avoiding Zone 1 is available if going Walthamstow Central [LU] - Highbury & Islington - Richmond - Kingston, or Walthamstow Central [NR] - Hackney Downs - Hackney Central - Richmond - Kingston, or Walthamstow Queens Road - Gospel Oak / Highbury & Islington - Richmond - Kingston.

 

[swt_passenger]

Which way did he go?

TfL's Single Fare Finder suggests that a fare avoiding Zone 1 is available if going Walthamstow Central [LU] - Highbury & Islington - Richmond - Kingston, or Walthamstow Central [NR] - Hackney Downs - Hackney Central - Richmond - Kingston, or Walthamstow Queens Road - Gospel Oak / Highbury & Islington - Richmond - Kingston.

Perhaps he didn't realise that the alternative routes shown need either two or three touches on route validators. It's either Highbury & Islington AND Richmond, or the other way Blackhorse Road, Gospel Oak AND Richmond.

Perhaps he thought any route validator would do, but I'm sure it's sometimes all of those listed...

 

[bb21]

So if I put a travel card on my Oyster but use it to go from Waterloo to Woking (stopping train so no commercial guard) and then on to Brookwood (no barriers) and return about 4 hours later it will assume I have stayed within the zones and not charge me extra, is that right!

Yes.

Obviously you will get chinged for at least a Penalty Fare if caught.

 

[Deerfold]

So if I put a travel card on my Oyster but use it to go from Waterloo to Woking (stopping train so no commercial guard) and then on to Brookwood (no barriers) and return about 4 hours later it will assume I have stayed within the zones and not charge me extra, is that right!

Yes - and you'd be perfectly valid so long as you had a valid ticket for the rest of the journey (e.g BZ4-Brookwood).