Would Scottish Independence Affect services to/from England?

[Liam_Hendry]

Sorry if there's already another thread on this by the way.

As we all know Scotland are holding a referendum in 2014. Will it affect the ECML/WCML if we all vote Yes ? Do you think we need to show passports and do security checks ? I know it's probably a bit early to ask. I must admit I hope there's no change regardless the poll results.

 

[Eagle]

Probably not much difference. It would be political suicide for the two countries not to introduce an open border.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The bigger impact will be on the Westminster make up as there will be less non conservatives and the policies toward rail that are followed in England.

 

[TUC]

Sorry if there's already another thread on this by the bay.

As we all know Scotland are holding a referendum in 2014. Will it affect the ECML/WCML if we all vote Yes ? Do you think we need to show passports and do security checks ? I know it's probably a bit early to ask. I must admit I hope there's no change regardless the poll results.

If the approaches used between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are used as a guide, the answer is no on both counts.

 

[Morgsie]

Scotland becomes part of the Schengen Agreement and so there would be controls. Hypothetically speaking.

The SNP are not being honest about relations with the EU

 

[Trog]

Might be some money to be saved if the Intercity rail network was cut back to the line of the northern most English cities, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and up the east coast to Tyneside. If the Scots want anything more than a Pacer north of that let them pay for it.

As for the border there may not be any choice if the EU insists Scotland joins their common Schengen border system, the barriers would have to go up or Scotland would be an open back door into England for those currently held up at the French ports.

The big question would be how high should we build the new wall along the boundary.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Might be some money to be saved if the Intercity rail network was cut back to the line of the northern most English cities, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and up the east coast to Tyneside. If the Scots want anything more than a Pacer north of that let them pay for it.

As for the border there may not be any choice if the EU insists Scotland joins their common Schengen border system, the barriers would have to go up or Scotland would be an open back door into England for those currently held up at the French ports.

The big question would be how high should we build the new wall along the boundary.

Very High! Much better job than the romans made too.

I imagine if we actually said anything north of Carlisle/Newcastle you have to pay for we would save a fortune! I would also request the sprinters Scotrail stole from Northern.

 

[SS4]

Perhaps the North of England and the Midlands should secede and become South Scotland

 

[SkinnyDave]

Scotland becomes part of the Schengen Agreement and so there would be controls. Hypothetically speaking.



The SNP are not being honest about relations with the EU

No they don't
Yes they are

Think England has to be honest about its relationship with Europe before preaching to others
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Perhaps the North of England and the Midlands should secede and become South Scotland

You would be more than welcome, if I could hold a referendum for rest of UK to leave London I would

 

[merlodlliw]

If its like Wales,which part of Scotia will be better off,my guess Edinburgh Bay.

However lets see how the SNP handle Grangemouth Scotias biggest employer in the private sector, back to rail will Gerald of Wales have its counterpart

We never have had to show passports between Dublin & Holyhead, so why Scotia, the only main difference is money & KPH.

 

[Metrailway]

Participation in Schengen is compulsory for new states joining the EU. It didn't used to be, but I believe this changed with the 1999 Amsterdam Treaty. All new states joining the EU after this date are legally bound to implement Schengen.

A similar scenario occurs with the euro, where new member states are legally bound to join the eurozone, if they meet the criteria to do so.

 

[SkinnyDave]

If its like Wales,which part of Scotia will be better off,my guess Edinburgh Bay.

However lets see how the SNP handle Grangemouth Scotias biggest employer in the private sector, back to rail will Gerald of Wales have its counterpart

Glasgow and Aberdeen won't stand for that lol

Hollywood script writer couldn't make Grangemouth plots anymore dramatic!
A Trade Union has just got its ass kicked big style

 

[Eagle]

Participation in Schengen is compulsory for new states joining the EU. It didn't used to be, but I believe this changed with the 1999 Amsterdam Treaty. All new states joining the EU after this date are legally bound to implement Schengen.

A similar scenario occurs with the euro, where new member states are legally bound to join the eurozone, if they meet the criteria to do so.

But it's not yet clear whether Scotland becoming independent would count as a new state joining the EU, or whether it would count as a successor state and inherit all the UK's various opt-outs (to do what it wishes with).

 

[SkinnyDave]

Participation in Schengen is compulsory for new states joining the EU. It didn't used to be, but I believe this changed with the 1999 Amsterdam Treaty. All new states joining the EU after this date are legally bound to implement Schengen.

A similar scenario occurs with the euro, where new member states are legally bound to join the eurozone, if they meet the criteria to do so.

Put in bold all you want fella Scotland is already in EU therefore will negotiate as existing member as EU lawyers and Scottish Government have already explained!
If you want to get into debate please read what they have to say first
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But it's not yet clear whether Scotland becoming independent would count as a new state joining the EU, or whether it would count as a successor state and inherit all the UK's various opt-outs (to do what it wishes with).

Correct!

Is there not a debate about independence under general section
In terms of rail I'm not sure what happens but would imagine a debate about services going further than Glasgow and Edinburgh would resurface again

 

[Metrailway]

Didn't the President of the EC, Manuel Barroso, say that it was 'obvious' that an independent Scotland would have to apply to 're-join' the EU.

Or was he being mischievous?

 

[merlodlliw]

Glasgow and Aberdeen won't stand for that lol
River City & Doric had better be prepared for a funding switch/

Hollywood script writer couldn't make Grangemouth plots anymore dramatic!
A Trade Union has just got its ass kicked big style

Indeed it has, Unite led its members up the garden path,the general Secretary of Unite will still get his £100 plus K PA,what a shambles by Unite.

Note not a question in PMs question time today by any SNP MP about Grangemouth.Good start for Independence

 

[DarloRich]

But it's not yet clear whether Scotland becoming independent would count as a new state joining the EU, or whether it would count as a successor state and inherit all the UK's various opt-outs (to do what it wishes with).

It should be counted a s a new country for that is exactly what it is! It isn't a country now!

As for the railways i doubt anything will happen - at least on the surface. Sctorail exists already and would simply carry on. The one good thing would be that we in England wouldn't be funding them!

It would be interesting to see what happens to the infrastructure come Independence.
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Indeed it has, Unite led its members up the garden path,the Secretary of Unite will still get his £100 plus K PA,what a shambles by Unite.

Note not a question in PMs question time today by any SNP MP about Grangemouth.Good start for Independence

or perhaps the union was right all along and the company were planning, for some time, to do exactly what they did. Doubt the Daily Mail tells you that mind............

 

[SkinnyDave]

It should be counted a s a new country for that is exactly what it is! It isn't a country now!

As for the railways i doubt anything will happen - at least on the surface. Sctorail exists already and would simply carry on. The one good thing would be that we in England wouldn't be funding them!

It would be interesting to see what happens to the infrastructure come Independence.
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or perhaps the union was right all along and the company were planning, for some time, to do exactly what they did. Doubt the Daily Mail tells you that mind............

Yet again England don't fund "them" facts please

Scotland is a Country just as England is EU scare tactics has been done to death. One thing for sure England's EU position will be interesting.
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Indeed it has, Unite led its members up the garden path,the general Secretary of Unite will still get his £100 plus K PA,what a shambles by Unite.

Note not a question in PMs question time today by any SNP MP about Grangemouth.Good start for Independence

Question wasn't allocated for PMQ but notice he disappeared for debate on it afterwards

 

[NotATrainspott]

Since something like this has never happened before for the European Union there is simply no precedent for what would happen. Despite what some point seem to think about the EU institutions, they aren't stupid enough to force something which would harm the integration of the countries together and that is exactly what forcing an independent Scotland to join Schengen is. Any completely new joining states will either be islands (i.e. Iceland) with absolutely no land borders or will be states with land borders to other Schengen nations, so it is entirely reasonable that it is now mandatory for new states to join the scheme.

Likewise, no rUK government would be stupid enough to arbitrarily introduce border controls. The border has been open for so long that it would be impossible to create a secure border - we didn't bother building one between the Republic and Northern Ireland and there was a fair bit more animosity involved in that separation than there would ever be for Scotland.

InterCity train travel works just fine in Europe at the moment so there's no operational reason why it would need to change up here. EU open access rules mean that operators would still be able to run cross-border services as they do today. The only thing which may (or may not) change is which company would own the infrastructure, which won't be changing much either. In any case, as ETCS is rolled out the difference between British and continental infrastructure will reduce even more.

 

[Eagle]

It should be counted a s a new country for that is exactly what it is! It isn't a country now!

By that argument the country consisting of England, Northern Ireland and Wales should also be counted as a new country, as there is no such country now. So post-independence both countries would have to adopt Schengen*, and the border will be open. Problem solved.

*and the euro

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Rail will come a fair way down the list of priorities to sort out, if it comes to it.
Currency, defence, nuclear, borders, currency, energy, taxation, benefits etc all come much higher up.
To rewrite the Railways Act, which formalises Network Rail, the ORR/RAIB, the franchise and fares system will take ages - years probably.
No private sector contracts will be broken, so franchises will just carry on until re-let.
I could see the franchises being respecified with the English sections separated from the cross-border ones, which would have joint management.
This could be quite difficult, with the level of integration between them at the moment.

There's also the small matter of carving up Network Rail's debt...

I suspect what comes out at the far end will not look much different to what went in.
Existing EU and national laws have to be observed until changed.

 

[Butts]

Indeed it has, Unite led its members up the garden path,the general Secretary of Unite will still get his £100 plus K PA,what a shambles by Unite.

Note not a question in PMs question time today by any SNP MP about Grangemouth.Good start for Independence

One figure noticeably absent from the tabloids (up here at least) is how much the workers get paid.

They are quick to castigate the Ineos Chairman for his billionaire lifestyle, but forget to mention the average workers salary at the plant is 55k - this revelation would be at odds with the "bash the poor" hype.

Around Grangemouth and Falkirk a 55K salary would be like winning the lottery for most workers.

Re Independence - it ain't gonna happen - "buttstradamus" will be voting yes safe in the knowledge the no's will prevail.

 

[DarloRich]

By that argument the country consisting of England, Northern Ireland and Wales should also be counted as a new country, as there is no such country now. So post-independence both countries would have to adopt Schengen*, and the border will be open. Problem solved.

*and the euro

No - The rest of the country would continue to be the United Kingdom and would retain the rights of the United Kingdom - we have not sought independence from anyone.

If the Scots want independence they start as a fresh country, with their share of the national debt.

 

[Eagle]

If the Scots want independence they start as a fresh country, with their share of the national debt.

If they get their share of the national debt, why can't they get their share of everything else (such as every treaty the UK is currently a signatory of)?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Does anyone actually believe that they will become independent?

 

[Eagle]

Does anyone actually believe that they will become independent?

Some English people do. Most Scottish people don't. :P

Support for Scottish independence is quite a bit lower in Scotland than it is in the rest of the UK. Funny that.

 

[Butts]

Does anyone actually believe that they will become independent?

See post 22

 

[ChiefPlanner]

From a previous job - the Anglo-Scottish flows are a key element to the rail product in Caledonia (and I have always been impressed BTW by Scotrail)

Funding ,if it ever comes off - may become challenging...shall we say some cross subsidy of pools of money unspent south of Berwick was assisted over the border by yours truly for the national interest. This could not happen in say 2020 ....

 

[DarloRich]

Yet again England don't fund "them" facts please

Scotland is a Country just as England is EU scare tactics has been done to death. One thing for sure England's EU position will be interesting.

Yet again the United Kingdom/England DO subsidise scotland massively, and without going to far off topic, the point needs to be made :

scotland accounts for 8.4% of the UK population, 8.3% of the UK's total output and 8.3% of the UK's non-oil tax revenues - but 9.2% of total UK public spending.

The scottish executives own figure for 2010 suggest that spending per person in Scotland was £11,370 against £10,320 for the wider UK. Therefore spending in Scotland was £1,030 - or 10% higher - per head of population than the UK average. I understand this has now grown to £1600 per head and an almost 15% gap!

Over the same period scotlands total non-oil tax revenues were around £42.7bn or £8,221 per head, which compares with the total public expenditure assigned to scotland of £59.2bn

Because of this scotland got £16.5bn more in public spending than it contributed the UK. This works out at a subsidy of around £3,150 per person (not adult - person!)

Even if you allow ALL of the much vaunted oil revenues that will save scotland (and even Mr Salmond only claims 90% of the revenue!) you get around 50bn as income - which equates to a subsidy "only" in the region of £2,100 per person!

(and scotland isn't a country - it has to most outsiders the status of a county)
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If they get their share of the national debt, why can't they get their share of everything else (such as every treaty the UK is currently a signatory of)?

Because come the revolution i will make the rules

 

[ChiefPlanner]

You can make all the rules you like , anywhere - provided you have a rock , solid , income stream to deliver your aspirations.

Discuss (with examples) ?