Split trains in the Channel Tunnel: NoL now viable?

[Chris125]

Can't see why it wouldn't work operationally, but prohibitively expensive maybe.

It wouldn't work operationally because the two lines are not well matched, both in terms of the number and types of services.

'Classic Compatible' services to the North of England and Scotland aren't suited to working Kent commuter services either in terms of interior, train length, performance, or frequency (10tph vs 4 at present IIRC).

The 400m 'captive' trainsets may be a good match to those working International services, but they are also relatively infrequent, suffer border and security measures that may make carrying domestic passengers on services heading to the continent impractical, and then there's the issue of how you interwork a service operated by Eurostar to Amsterdam or Marseille or DB to Cologne with services potentially operated by a HS2 franchise.

There's also the more mundane issue of reliability of mixing so many long distance, international and commuter services together and the impact that has on capacity, the timetable padding/dwell times at 'Euston Cross' and the impact that has on the number of platforms required, the turn-back facility required to make up for the mis-match in frequencies....

Euston Cross looks great on paper but I've seen no attempt to really explain how it would work in practice, let alone how the cost can be justified when London is bound to remain the destination for the vast majority. With Crossrail 2 creating a combined St Pancras/Euston complex and the opportunity for some HS1 services to terminate at Old Oak Common I can't see the need anyway.

Could running 2 services one Liverpool>Manchester>Birmingham and another Leeds*>Sheffield>Derby which could have UKBA people on board, stop at Ashford to join the 2 trains and evict anyone who doesn't have valid travel documents.

The problem is not just border control but security measures for passing through the Channel Tunnel, it's not practical to check luggage on-board.

Chris

 

[Rhydgaled]

In reply to Chris125,

With Euston Cross, trains wouldn't have to turnback in the station, meaning you could have trains from four points of the compass using the station with less platforms than four seperate termini. Kings Cross has 12 platforms while Peterborough only has 5. If a through station requires half the platforms of a terminal one, then Euston Cross could serve four HS lines with no more platforms than would be required at Euston for HS2 alone.

Initially, I would suggest the actual turnbacks would mostly be done near the Eurostar depot (accessed from Stratford International) with a few services running through from HS2 to Ashford/Dover. You could also replace the Heathrow Express with extensions of some of the Javelin services and run the odd NOL Eurostar set (or newer equivalent) from Bristol to Europe.

(Much?) later, you'd have a high speed line feeding in from the south/west at Old Oak Common and another from the Eurostar depot to the north-east. Trains from HS2 and the south/west route could then run through to either HS1 or the north-east route. HS1 capacity is somewhat taken up by Eurostars so you'd probably end up with more trains from the south/west&HS2 going to Stansted/north-east than to Ashford/Dover.

 

[johnnychips]

Ive used the eurostar quite a few times, and I live in leeds ok it is partially because I dont particularly like flying, a through service would be better but for East Coast and Midlands passengers its reasonably convienent, I think through services to heathrow airport might be more useful.

Probably off-topic, but BA have introduced three direct flights to Heathrow a day for people like you: you probably wouldn't consider it if you were just going to London itself, but if you had a connecting flight elsewhere...

 

[Chris125]

If a through station requires half the platforms of a terminal one, then Euston Cross could serve four HS lines with no more platforms than would be required at Euston for HS2 alone.

A through station may need fewer platforms but that's outweighed by the far greater cost of building them underground along with the likely impact on reliability.

Initially, I would suggest the actual turnbacks would mostly be done near the Eurostar depot (accessed from Stratford International) with a few services running through from HS2 to Ashford/Dover.

Even if the depot and it's single track access line could cope with so many trains turning back, tunnelling into the station box at Stratford has already been evaluated for the link line alternatives and found to be impractical - one of the reasons being the tunnels for buried power cables IIRC. I believe the conclusion was a link to HS2 would have to stretch as far as Barking where HS1 resurfaces.

You could also replace the Heathrow Express with extensions of some of the Javelin services and run the odd NOL Eurostar set (or newer equivalent) from Bristol to Europe.

The airport could be served by Eurostar and possibly Javelin services under the current plans if the Heathrow branch of HS2 is built, whereas I doubt HEx in it's current form will be around by the time HS2 opens given the scarcity of paths on GWML fast lines and the building of the western access.

As for International services, 373's will be over 30 years old by the time HS2 opens and there's really no reason for Eurostar to purchase anything but more standard sized stock like the e320 - certainly not the occasional train to Bristol. As I said before, if there's sufficient demand some International services can terminate at OOC, via a reversal at St Pancras if need be.
Chris

 

[RichmondCommu]

Yes, we didn't predict low cost airlines crushing everything else.

I concur, although in hindsight it was obvious that eventually the airlines would cotton on. And in many respects thank God they did!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It would get custom, but it would just cost too much to run.
These things always do.

Running night trains composed of day-time stock would be better....

For once I agree with you! Couchettes would work very well in this country but I'm afraid loading guage issues may work against us.

 

[ainsworth74]

Probably off-topic, but BA have introduced three direct flights to Heathrow a day for people like you: you probably wouldn't consider it if you were just going to London itself, but if you had a connecting flight elsewhere...

Erm...

Ive used the eurostar quite a few times, and I live in leeds ok it is partially because I dont particularly like flying, a through service would be better but for East Coast and Midlands passengers its reasonably convienent, I think through services to heathrow airport might be more useful.

Not sure a flight to Heathrow would solve that issue

 

[33Hz]

Regarding the AGV, Alstom claims the per seat energy use at 360 km/h is the same as a 390 at 200 km/h.

Personally, I think a Euston Cross will give options that we will regret not having otherwise and should be built alongside Crossrail 2. But for even worse short termism, the selling off of the Kings Cross railway lands for flats takes the biscuit.

 

[D365]

With Euston Cross, trains wouldn't have to turnback in the station, meaning you could have trains from four points of the compass using the station with less platforms than four seperate termini. Kings Cross has 12 platforms while Peterborough only has 5. If a through station requires half the platforms of a terminal one, then Euston Cross could serve four HS lines with no more platforms than would be required at Euston for HS2 alone.

Furthermore, Peterborough plays host to the XC 'HamSted' route as well as GA and EMT regional services. Though as we speak, three more platforms are under construction - one replacing the current P1 bay.

Initially, I would suggest the actual turnbacks would mostly be done near the Eurostar depot (accessed from Stratford International) with a few services running through from HS2 to Ashford/Dover. You could also replace the Heathrow Express with extensions of some of the Javelin services and run the odd NOL Eurostar set (or newer equivalent) from Bristol to Europe.

The ramp up to Temple Mills Depot is single track. Might be slightly awkward dualling it, but since nobody uses Stratford, that would make the job easier

(Much?) later, you'd have a high speed line feeding in from the south/west at Old Oak Common and another from the Eurostar depot to the north-east. Trains from HS2 and the south/west route could then run through to either HS1 or the north-east route. HS1 capacity is somewhat taken up by Eurostars so you'd probably end up with more trains from the south/west&HS2 going to Stansted/north-east than to Ashford/Dover.

While we're in fantasy land, I'd build a completely new line under Heathrow, four platforms, and then split to serve GW and the SW! Maybe even link back up to HS2?

Personally, I think a Euston Cross will give options that we will regret not having otherwise and should be built alongside Crossrail 2. But for even worse short termism, the selling off of the Kings Cross railway lands for flats takes the biscuit.

What would you have done with the land Compulsory purchase at all? Hmm...

Now if I was in charge of London's railways from the start... I would have sent the entire network through a 'Mega-Thameslink' :P An idea for when I get around to a (heavily modded) SimCity 4 again?

 

[Rhydgaled]

The ramp up to Temple Mills Depot is single track. Might be slightly awkward dualling it

Oh, it looked double track to me on Google Earth. On VERY much closer inspection of the airel photography I can see that it might in fact be single.

 

[D365]

Oh, it looked double track to me on Google Earth. On VERY much closer inspection of the aerial photography I can see that it might in fact be single.

It is, I was there during the Olympics and saw a Eurostar ascending the ramp Also referenced as a single track access on various sites. In my experience too, Google Earth can blur railway tracks/trackbeds often from a distance.

 

[edwin_m]

To double the ramp I think you'd need to get rid of the central island platform which is used by Southeastern. If there was definitely no prospect of international trains stopping here then this could be done by raising the side platforms to 914mm, as was done temporarily for the Olympics, and using those instead.

If this is too difficult, or if there is nowhere near Stratford to build the extra sidings, then sidings could be connected into HS1 somewhere around Dagenham or Ebbsfleet.

 

[D365]

Extra sidings? Where are we needing extra sidings? Or do you mean replacement sidings?

(Although though this is fantasy, I don't think the second Eurostar depot being abandoned would go down well... Even if North Pole, the first, is being taken over for IEP.

 

[infobleep]

If we don't need Eurostar trains that split and go to other parts of the country, why are such things required in Europe?

One can change just as easily in Brussels as they can in St Pancreas. Of course if one needs to change stations in Brussels then it becomes more awkward but no more so than any London station other than St Pancreas to St Pancreas.

 

[Manchester77]

Extra sidings? Where are we needing extra sidings? Or do you mean replacement sidings?

There's always manchester international

I know it's used by Siemens now

 

[Aictos]

Furthermore, Peterborough plays host to the XC 'HamSted' route as well as GA and EMT regional services. Though as we speak, three more platforms are under construction - one replacing the current P1 bay.

Actually Platform 1 isn't being replaced at all, Platform 2 is being extended southwards which would extend it over the trackwork to the existing Platform 1 hence Platform 1 will be lost forever.

A new platform however is being built on the other side of the existing Platform 3 which will be the new Platform 3 and new island platforms for the Greater Anglia, Cross Country and East Midlands Trains are currently under construction on the former flyash line.

All this is timed to be completed by 27th December 2013.....

 

[pablo]

Temple Mills branch is deffo single.... and dualling is not practical. Not convinced that an HS2-HS1 link can't be threaded into west of Stratford, despite the built-in obstructions.

There are, already, turn-back sidings for Javelins just east of Ebbsfleet, on the Gravesend branch in the Northfleet quarry and I see the rails are shiny sometimes.

 

[edwin_m]

Extra sidings? Where are we needing extra sidings? Or do you mean replacement sidings?

The Eurostar depot contains a certain number of sidings for storing, cleaning and servicing Eurostars. To turn back and service the much more frequent HS2 trains termianting at Euston Cross will need more sidings, either near the Eurostar depot or somewhere else with easy access from HS1.