Had a play on the X94 yesterday. 1116 departure from Wrexham. A taxi would have sufficed for most of the journey with most travelling a fair distance. I don't know about other services and fares but I did notice some people waiting at Ruabon let us go and caught a Vale of Llangollen bus to Llangollen. From Dolgellau we got into double figures and on my return trip at 1444 from Barmouth there were about 15 as far as Dolgellau dropping to 7 from there. I couldn't see why there was a 20 minute layover on schooldays at Dolgellau bus depot as the school/college students were already there when we arrived.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru
- Thread starter Rhydgaled
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
I've found pictures of more ex-Arriva Tempos now working for an operator in Cheltenham, so annoyingly it looks like the Welsh Government / councils disposed of the whole fleet other than the ones Richards Bros got. However, I have been unable to find any evidence of where YJ55BJE and YJ55BKL went, has anyone seen them recently?
Connections with T2 service? There used to be connections with X32 at Dolgellau I believe.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Think you're right about the 20 minute window for connecting with the old X32.
As for the former WG Tempos being sold, you've got to remember that they've been flogged into the ground for 8 years. After all, Lloyds and Express didn't fancy them for the T2.
Probably ok for trundling around Cheltenham but a bit tired for TrawsCymru services.
A bit tired machanically perhaps, but the interior is nicer to travel on than the Pulsars Arriva have on the CymruExpress in my opinion, and the Tempos are better looking externally than either Pulsars (particularly the newer ones) or Enviros.
That said, if they are machanically tired isn't it a bit strange that they kept the three 55-plates on the T(C)4 rather than ordering 9 new ones?
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Aesthetics are a personal thing.
Also, I do agree about the Pulsars. They're not particularly heavy duty and that is reflected in the ride quality but that's not an argument to retain redundant kit. Also, Optares have long had the problem of looking good (e.g. Deltas, Vectas) and good ride quality but actual build quality and reliability being more of a challenge.
As for the retention of 25101-3, they're coming to the end of their lives so may see their replacement sooner rather than later but who knows? I'd not be keen to see enviro 300s (also lightweight) but Volvo B7s are probably the best machines over the years.
My comments about the interior of the Pulsars were again largely relating to aesthetics, rather than ride quality which is not a trait I tend to notice (other than the seats on top of the engine vibrate rather alot on the Pulsars, not sure about other buses as I haven't sat at the back of one for a while). I prefer the large square-frame windows, blue seats and white interior paneling of the Tempos to the decor of the Pulsars, which look comparitively run down to me.
So, assuming reliability is a problem, is there copywrite on bodywork design of buses? If WAG put out a tender for a fleet of new buses which look like the orriginal Tempos, would only Optare be able to bid? If a Volvo B7 has good reliability and fuel ecconomy then one of those with the Tempo bodywork sounds ideal.
Sadly Optare appear to have lost it on the looking good front, the SR models of both the Tempo and Solo aren't a patch on the orriginals and the Versa looked silly from day one with that daft hump.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Why would Optare seek to allow someone to build a vehicle of an outdated design? After all, that would be in competition with their own design, and could even be an acknowledgement that their Tempo SR isn't good enough!
Copyright/patents would apply though there have been instances in the past of cheap copies of designs being made (e.g. East Lancs with Alexander R type lookalikes, and Willowbrook's 003 looking like a cheaper Duple Dominant).
Alternatively, why bother with a Tempo lookalike at all when there are other off the shelf alternatives, such as a Wright Eclipse or even some proper coaches (B9R Panthers)?
anthony263
Established Member
Proper coaches for the Trawscymru network is exactly what I think is needed especially the really long distance services such as those services which run from Cardiff to Newtown.
The new Plaxton Interdeck has a low floor entrance so can carry a wheelchair bound passenger plus you could further and perhaps order some double deck coaches like we have on Megabus and the Oxford Tube.
I personbally think they would be popular especially on the T4 giving passengers good view of the scenery. Keep the Tempo's for the T9 however since that is a pretty short service
The new Plaxton Interdeck has a low floor entrance so can carry a wheelchair bound passenger plus you could further and perhaps order some double deck coaches like we have on Megabus and the Oxford Tube.
I personbally think they would be popular especially on the T4 giving passengers good view of the scenery. Keep the Tempo's for the T9 however since that is a pretty short service
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Plaxton Interdecks would be a very good call. The views up and over Storey Arms would be stunning. Don't know if there's any height restrictions north of Brecon though
I disagree. I have yet to be comfortable on a coach, they always seem to have no legroom and more importantly they tend to have seatbelts. Seatbelts mean you are legally obligdged to use them, which means you have to stay seated until the vehicle stops which makes disembarking slower and makes it harder to run a hail-and-ride service (which the X50/X40/TC4 etc. need to be since they are the main/only public transport available).
As for the T9, assuming WAG learnt from their mistake with the X40 fleet in not providing enough legroom then those Tempos are wasted on such a short distance service. Let First run the T9 with their normal buses and remove it from the TrawsCymru network. The T9 doesn't fit the TrawsCymru brand values of long-distance services linking places not directly served by the rail network at all.
A Cardiff to Newtown limited-stop coach, on a less-frequent schedule than the regular bus service (a bit like the 701/40) could be a good idea though, in which case the TC4 could perhaps be cut back to Newtown - Merthyr (just a shame the train is slower than the bus, which means there annoyingly is a case for the TC4 running to Cardiff).
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Sorry but that's not right. If the TC4 (or X40) were stopping at every road end and farm gate, then that would be true but in truth, they don't. Much of the territory that they operate through is fairly sparsely populated.
If Scottish Citylink can operate as per the local bus services on their network....
http://www.citylink.co.uk/timetables/Winter13/Inverness2Skye.pdf
http://www.citylink.co.uk/timetables/Winter13/Glas2Oban.pdf
.....or Stagecoach on a number of their services....
http://www.stagecoachbus.com/PdfUploads/Timetable_45126_35-35A.pdf
http://www.stagecoachbus.com/PdfUploads/Timetable_46005_10, 10A, 10B, X10.pdf
http://www.stagecoachbus.com/PdfUploads/Timetable_42019_X97 X99 Highland.pdf
....then why not in Wales?
The area may be sparsely populated, but I can assure you the X50 does stop at road ends and farm gates on occasion, and I suspect the 40/X40 and T(C)4 do also. The buses round here certainly need to be hail-and-ride.
Last edited:
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Yes but not EVERY one as I said. Also, if you look at the 976, it says
"Between Balloch and Oban Service 976 will pick up at all the stops listed above and all bus stops and intermediate points where it is safe for the coach to stop following a clear signal being given by the intending passenger NOT for example in the vicinity of a bend or dip in the road whereby the drivers view of other traffic is obstructed."
These are not heavily urbanised areas with frequent stops. The Stagecoach routes I cited are probably busier and they manage with coaches.
anthony263
Established Member
Just because a coach is fitted with seatbelts doesnt mean passengers use them. Those of us on this forum who have used Megabus or National express for example will see that some passengers dont both or remain seated while the coach is coming to a stop.
Anyway I am still of the opinion that coaches would be ideal for some of the Trawscymru routes. I dont really think there is any height issue's along the route of the T4 since Crossgates coaches followed a similar route and used coaches when they ran a Newtown - Cardiff service. Coach Travel Wales also used coaches on a Aberystwyth to Manchester service.
Anyway I am still of the opinion that coaches would be ideal for some of the Trawscymru routes. I dont really think there is any height issue's along the route of the T4 since Crossgates coaches followed a similar route and used coaches when they ran a Newtown - Cardiff service. Coach Travel Wales also used coaches on a Aberystwyth to Manchester service.
So how does a passenger tell the driver 'I want to get off at that milestone there' as one passenger did on the X50 the other day? And what happens if all the seats are full, do passengers have to wait for the next one (while I'd much rather nobody ever has to stand, it may be unavoidable on odd occasions)???
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Quite a few don't seem to use them on the 03 service in Aberystwyth. I wonder what the legalities are on a bus which has seatbelts but also has grab rails and an allowance for a number of standing passengers. Are seated passengers still leagally required to wear the seat belt even given that standing seems to be permitted?
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
How do you think they manage it? They use bell pushes. These can be specified before construction.
Overloading? Well, how is that managed now? Do they have standing passengers? I've not experienced that on the X40 (as was) or T4 or X94 or X32, all of which I've travelled on (albeit not frequently). As it is, Interdecks can carry up to 75 passengers so less of an issue than at present.
As I said, coaches manage perfectly well in Scotland on services similar to TrawsCymru (like the 10 from Aberdeen to Inverness), and indeed in Cumbria on the X5 (Workington-Keswick-Penrith) so I just cannot see why they wouldn't work in rural Wales. Is a long distance inter-urban service that serves a few scattered market towns so much different in Wales than in Scotland or England (or even the BusEireann Expressways)? London may have the NBfL, but I don't see a Tempo lookalike appearing (NBfCymru
), and in fact, coaches would be much more sensible given the average passenger journey durations on routes such as the T4.Robertj21a
On Moderation
- Joined
- 22 Sep 2013
- Messages
- 7,691
1. They press a bell, why shouldn't they ?
2. What happens if a bus is full, including standing ? - I've been on some of these routes and would hardly call them excessively busy.
3. Standing passengers are usually allowed on buses (which have stanchions etc to accommodate that need). Seat belts may be fitted, usually to meet school contracts, but there's no legislation requiring passengers to use them (afaik).
I think you need to go on a few interurban 'coach' routes - like Scottish Citylink or the X5 (Cambridge - Oxford).
Robert
.
But when the bus can stop ANYWHERE, how would the driver know from just a bell push exactly where the passenger wants to get off? My example of the milestone was to illustrate the point that sometimes you need to be standing right next to the driver in order to tell him where you want to stop. I seem to remember I once tried using just the bell to disembark at the junction I wanted and was overcarried to Cardigan.
I think I've only once seen a TrawsCambria Tempo so full that passengers (including me in that case) were turned away, and that was when it was being used on an Aberystwyth town service run up the hill to the university. Nowdays the 40 and 50 do sometimes reach the point where a small number have to stand, but nowhere near the limit as far as I have seen.
Not if they have the (lack of) legroom I associate with coaches. I find it rather supprising that the only buses in the whole TrawsCambria fleet built with decent legroom at a good number of seats (4 rows of 4 in this case) were the two built for what must be the shortest of the TrawsCambria routes (the X50). The X40 at the very least should have had similar buses with decent legroom.
Ok, that's interesting. The stickers applied on the 03 bus certainly suggest they want you to use the seatbelts.
Last edited:
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Hang on. You're on about being dropped off at the millimetre? Where were you when "overcarried to Cardigan"? How far was that? Also, what you're saying is contravening "Passengers must not 1) speak to the driver or distract his attention whilst the vehicle is in motion". Also, even if you've do say "drop me here, Drive'", they can only do so where it is safe to do so, so it's the same as ringing the bell.
As regards the lack of legroom that YOU associate with coaches? Well, that's a) subjective b) dependent on how tall you are and c) is subject to the specification that the ordering organisation stipulate. You can order Interdecks with tables and 50 seats if you were so minded.
However, what you continue to ignore, and sorry to shout, but.....THEY MANAGE TO DO IT IN THE REST OF THE BRITISH ISLES SO WHY NOT WALES?
As another poster says, go out and experience similar services elsewhere! I think it may do you good
Last edited:
Roughly a bit over two miles, and in case you're wondering it's about the same to the next marked stop in the other direction. Pressing the bell implies you want the next stop, but if there's no official stop how does the driver know where to stop?
What I've done since that occasion is get out of my seat and walk up to the front of the bus, ringing the bell on the way. That normally does the trick and if it doesn't I'm then in a position where I can ask the driver to stop without yelling.
Well yes, I haven't experienced such services so you may be right. It may be possible and it may already be done, but I can't see how it could work.However, what you continue to ignore, and sorry to shout, but.....THEY MANAGE TO DO IT IN THE REST OF THE BRITISH ISLES SO WHY NOT WALES?
As another poster says, go out and experience similar services elsewhere! I think it may do you good
anthony263
Established Member
60-60 coaches managed to use coaches when they ran a hourly/2hourly Brecon - Cardiff service when the T4 was extended beyond Brecon to Merthyr Tydfil.
I used this service on at least 2 occasions and I can tell you that it did manage to pick up passengers in remote area's. Sadly since the T4 was extended to Cardiff the 60-60 was withdrawn.
The beacons bus network which operates on sundays during the summer between June and October is another example where coaches are used on a locla service. I have taken a double decker from Bridgend to Brecon over the Bwllch and Rhigos Mountains as well as Storey Arms (It was an experience I can tell you)
I used this service on at least 2 occasions and I can tell you that it did manage to pick up passengers in remote area's. Sadly since the T4 was extended to Cardiff the 60-60 was withdrawn.
The beacons bus network which operates on sundays during the summer between June and October is another example where coaches are used on a locla service. I have taken a double decker from Bridgend to Brecon over the Bwllch and Rhigos Mountains as well as Storey Arms (It was an experience I can tell you)
Teflon Lettuce
Established Member
- Joined
- 22 Aug 2013
- Messages
- 1,750
to clarify some queries on here...
what the law says on speaking to the driver:
passengers must not speak to or distract the driver WITHOUT GOOD CAUSE...
I'm sure that any court of law would accept that asking the driver to stop is GOOD CAUSE..
what the law says on seatbelts is the same as with cars... that they MUST be worn if fitted... and before everyone jumps up and down and says how is it enforced... it isn't...
I've never seen the police stop a bus or coach and check that everyone's wearing their seatbelt...
however... the company's (and driver's) responsibility for enforcing the wearing of seatbelts ends with the requirement that passengers should be made aware that they have to be worn... this may be done by making announcements... or as is usual notices to the effect.
it is then the passenger's responsibility to wear them, and if in the unlikely event that a police officer were to board the vehicle then it would be the passenger that would receive the fine for not wearing their belt.
as to whether coaches can work on long distance interurban services in wales... obviously they can else why is the 701 going from strength to strength? in fact coaches will ALWAYS work better than low floor buses on such services on 2 counts... 1. a coach seat is more comfortable on a long journey than a bus seat designed for city use. 2. although more steps need to be climbed to board, once on board the views are far superior than those on a low floor bus
what the law says on speaking to the driver:
passengers must not speak to or distract the driver WITHOUT GOOD CAUSE...
I'm sure that any court of law would accept that asking the driver to stop is GOOD CAUSE..
what the law says on seatbelts is the same as with cars... that they MUST be worn if fitted... and before everyone jumps up and down and says how is it enforced... it isn't...
I've never seen the police stop a bus or coach and check that everyone's wearing their seatbelt...
however... the company's (and driver's) responsibility for enforcing the wearing of seatbelts ends with the requirement that passengers should be made aware that they have to be worn... this may be done by making announcements... or as is usual notices to the effect.
it is then the passenger's responsibility to wear them, and if in the unlikely event that a police officer were to board the vehicle then it would be the passenger that would receive the fine for not wearing their belt.
as to whether coaches can work on long distance interurban services in wales... obviously they can else why is the 701 going from strength to strength? in fact coaches will ALWAYS work better than low floor buses on such services on 2 counts... 1. a coach seat is more comfortable on a long journey than a bus seat designed for city use. 2. although more steps need to be climbed to board, once on board the views are far superior than those on a low floor bus
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Can't help but agree with all the above. Can't recall the good cause but sure you're right. And of course, the original TC was a coach service in CMS & NW days
So does that mean standing passengers are not technically legal if the bus is fitted with seatbelts, or is this just one of those laws that makes no sense?
I don't have a problem with the 701 as (I beleive) it only observes selected stops and doesn't run on a hail and ride basis. In fact, in the post that started this argument I think I said a similar limited-stop coach service running the Cardiff - Newtown route (alongside the Tempo-operated TC4) could be a good idea.
I don't remember the views being much better than a Tempo (which already is a marked improvment over a car) on the 550 (or was it already the 50 by then?) when Arriva were using a double decker on it. Then again the main thing I remember about that was crashing into low branches of trees. As for coach seats, the seats on the new TrawsCymru Tempos look a lot better than normal bus seats (I haven't had a chance to use one though). Personally, I think I'd more more comfortable for a long distance on TrawsCambria Tempo YJ55BKE than the Mid Wales Travel coach I used a few times on their Aberystwyth town service soon after it was introduced (as a free service initially). The legroom on that coach was dreadful, just like class 150s which ideally shouldn't be used on any service taking much over an hour in my opinion.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
You got over carried by TWO miles. And this was on a bus? I think you may be contradicting yourself!!
You can't see how it works? It may be possible?
Come on. You've been given illustrations by myself and other posters of how it does work and has for years. Specific examples over time. It happens in areas and on services equivalent to TC.
As for saying about views being better from a Tempo than a decker....You'll be saying low cloud is an issue next. Legroom is not an issue - you specify that on ordering. Coaches on town services? Relevance?
There is a saying that "there is none so blind as those who do not WISH to see". Your obsession with two Optare Tempos clearly stops you believing what others tell you. I appreciate you have an opinion but what you're saying is ONLY that. The demonstrable facts show that coaches can easily be used on TC. They are used elsewhere on similar services.
Teflon Lettuce
Established Member
- Joined
- 22 Aug 2013
- Messages
- 1,750
Standing passengers are still legal if seatbelts are fitted... quite right it is a law that makes no sense.
the 701 stops at ALL stops between aberystwyth and carmarthen... and that includes all "custom and practise" stops... in other words where no bus stops are provided it will stop anywhere that it is safe to do so.
where was you sitting? on the roof? a low floor buses forward portion is little more than 18" off the ground.
LOOK is the operative word. the seats on the tempos are ordinary bus seats with a high back. (similar to dual purpose seating of years ago. the comfort of a seat is not all about leg room (although that is a large part of it). there is also the matter of seat depth, amount of padding in seat cushion, seat pitch. as other posters have already said legroom is dependant on specification... ie how many seats the operator asks for. of course the tempo's are built to DDA compliancy. IF there were fitted with as many seats as is legally allowed in the space available then I'm sure that you'd find them impossible to sit on for more than 5 mins.
comfort on a long journey is not just about the seating... the suspension on a coach is designed for running at high speed over long distances and soaks up the lumps and bumps much better than a low floor bus such as the tempo which is designed primarily as a town bus.
I was almost certainly carried over because I didn't take advantage of the fact I was on a bus (not a coach) and didn't walk up and tell the driver where to stop.
Yes, given that several on here are claiming it is possible it may be. I cannot see how it would work, but if you say it does then maybe it does.
I didn't say the view was better on the Tempo, I said I don't remember the double decker being much better.
Just that I wouldn't want to do a long journey on such a vehicle. The seats might have been nicer than bus seats, but they were too closely packed together.
The seats on the Tempos Richards Bros have certainly are quite hard. However, the 12 new TrawsCymru ones have different seats that I have yet to try. They look better, but I don't know whether they are.
anthony263
Established Member
It was still operated by coaches by Arriva and Stagecoach right up to around 2005 when the Welsh Government started the Trawscymru/Trawscambria long distance bus network.
I certainly agree coaches are far superior to travel on over long distances compared to buses
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I'm sorry but talk about vagueness and semantics! By saying that you couldn't remember a decker having a better view....what interpretation could anyone take? How on earth can a low floor single deck provide better views over hedgerows and dry stone walls than say a coach, let alone a decker?
Similarly, you keep saying on coaches "that several on here are claiming it is possible it may be. I cannot see how it would work, but if you say it does then maybe it does. No, no, no. No one is claiming that it might be possible. People are stating, definitively, that it happens elsewhere, on services that operate hail and ride, long distance etc. Today, at this second, Stagecoach Plaxton B9Rs are running between Inverness and Aberdeen.
As others have pointed out, the actual genesis of TrawsCambria was using coaches. From Bristol REs and Leyland Leopards, through to Leyland Tigers to Van Hool bodied Volvos. Also, the 701 uses coaches and people are preferring them over the Pulsars? People are choosing the coach option because of the comfort on journeys that are of longer duration, not the bus despite the lower floor and bell pushes/seat belts!
And stop citing legroom as an issue. As has been said before, you fit 75 seats in an Interdeck. You could specify them with 55 or 60 seats and have more legroom than the Tempos you keep going on about.
Last edited:
Yes, and I'm finding it hard to believe that it works smoothly without passengers missing where they really want to alight and extending dwell times at stops. It might work, but unless the coaches used on the examples you are describing are very different to the few I've experienced (and have grab-poles etc. to allow passengers to walk up to the front before the bus has stopped) I can't see it working smoothly. I'm happy to admit that I might be wrong in this case, but that doesn't mean I admit I am wrong.
Yes, but was it trying to be THE local bus service at the same time? There would still have been normal stopping services running shorter-distance trips, probably at a higher frequency, along the route wouldn't there?
How long are these 75-seat coaches? I think my favoriate pair of Tempos are 41-seaters and they are X1260 models (which I think means they 12.6 metres). Are you telling me you can get a greater seating capacity in a vehicle of the same length and still have decent legroom? Yes the coaches look like they have seats above the driver, but the space taken up by the luggage rack and driver's seat on the Tempos would probably only be equivalent to one row of seats.
- Status