What is wrong with Northern Rail?

[ANorthernGuard]

Give us (The staff) the tools to do our job properly and we will do our best to get everyone from A to B on time and in comfort BUT Northern Just do not have the units to do that. The Pacers are too small and have been showing their age for the last 10 years at least, A refresh has helped but only to make the surroundings more pleasant as it does not improve capacity. 150's are better quality but thse are showing thier age as well, however the Ex-fnw fleet that have been refreshed do look and feel more comfortable. The ex central ones look very tatty with the original stained plastic but they do seem more spacious. The 156 fleet since the refresh do look very smart and I have not heard hardly any complaints about them. Our 323's since the refurb feel almost like brand new trains. They are well designed and pretty reliable and being 3 car emu's do have more space and by an emu's nature speedier. Northern are doing their best with very limites stock we need the electrification programme to go ahead quickly with the old (but hopefully refurbed stock) from down south to arrive so we can free up more dmu's and double up etc on a lot more routes.

This is just my opinion as a guard who sees it on a day to day basis, we get just as frustrated as you guys but we do know Northern are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

 

[thenorthern]

Personally I would describe Northern as the best operator. At the end of they day they don't get to choose their stock, they don't get timetabling priority on many of their lines, many of their lines such as the Hope Valley Line and the Furness Line have other operators with faster services taking their trade, they have to operate lightly used long distance lines such as Leeds to Carlisle/Lancaster and they have to operate many parliamentary stations such as Denton and Teeside Airport.

 

[Manchester77]

A good way to sum up northern is they do the best with what they have

 

[34D]

That sounds more fun than my last trip on one.

Though the 2+3 Pacers I've been on the only way you'd get five adults sitting abreast is to have at least two of them sitting on the others laps...

Now now gents

 

[Buspilot]

All very well, but how about addressing the matter of lack of cleanliness and poor internal presentation.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

All very well, but how about addressing the matter of lack of cleanliness and poor internal presentation.

At least at Piccadilly I know they have cleaners going through moist trains on a regular basis and refreshes are being done..what more can be done? When it comes down to it like what has been said in another thread the passengers make the trains filthy inside lol

 

[tbtc]

Worrying about Lymington and Morpeth is a waste of time - about as futile as worrying about a couple of rotting 508s - you'd be using a lot of extra resources (inc staff training at Heaton, maintenance...) for the sake of saving a DMU or two (and cutting a popular existing service at the same time).

There are plenty of diesel services running under the wires - if you want to tackle them seriously then you'd have better returns focussing on routes like XC north of York/ XC between Manchester and Birmingham etc (which wouldn't necessarily be popular with passengers, but would free up more diesels than Lymington or Morpeth).

I will cite one particular example of how expectations were allowed to rise in East Lancashire with the May 2014 new proposed service from Blackburn/Accrington/Burneley Manchester Road/Copy Pit Line/Todmorden/Rochdale/Manchester. Even allowing for the remedial works in the Holme Tunnel that will also disrupt the Northern Rail Blackpool to York service during the 2013 winter, there are some forum members on this website who claim that there will not be rolling stock to run it when May 2014 arrives. Just imagine how this news will be received in East Lancashire.

I understand that Peter Magill, the chief reporter of the Lancashire Telegraph, which is the local newspaper covering this area, will be speaking to Northern Rail to establish the veracity of the situation early this coming week.

Can't blame Northern if Network Rail decide to build this expensive new link and the TOC doesn't have spare stock to run an additional service...

...but I thought that there were spare 150s to run extra Blackburn - Bolton - Manchester services (as per the other thread)?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can't blame Northern if Network Rail decide to build this expensive new link and the TOC doesn't have spare stock to run an additional service...

Can I clarify this position as many forum members seen unaware of how the history of this new Todmorden Chord came about.

There was a bid package assembled by bodies in East Lancashire that was for monies to reinvigorate the Weavers Triangle area of Burnley and the reinstatement of the Todmorden Chord, with the proviso that both parts of the bid would make improvements to that area of East Lancashire. Burnley Council were a leading player in this bid submission. The bid was successful and part of the bid monies were put into the Todmorden Chord project.

So it was NOT a Network Rail idea to build this chord as you state, but they then acted to ensure the bid monies were used in the rail part of the bid project.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...but I thought that there were spare 150s to run extra Blackburn - Bolton - Manchester services (as per the other thread)?

I spoke to Northern Rail at Leeds this morning who were very chary as how they answered my questions with regard to rolling stock provision for the Todmorden Chord project, so the matter of the "spare 150's" that you describe would appear to have all been committed to the Blackburn-Bolton-Manchester service that you state in your post.

Please refer to the Todmorden Chord thread on the Infrastructure and Stations forum for matters since the pre-bid days to the success of the bid to matters today.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Northern can reasonably say that they have no contract beyond 31 March 2014, and direct all enquiries to the DfT.
The franchise extension to 2016 is not agreed yet.

 

[Carlisle]

Personally I would describe Northern as the best operator. At the end of they day they don't get to choose their stock, they don't get timetabling priority on many of their lines, many of their lines such as the Hope Valley Line and the Furness Line have other operators with faster services taking their trade, they have to operate lightly used long distance lines such as Leeds to Carlisle/Lancaster and they have to operate many parliamentary stations such as Denton and Teeside Airport.

I think Northern do a reasonable job ,but I would not feel to sorry for them for the above reasons, as these very reasons allow them a significant amount of government support not available at similar levels to much of the rest of the industry

 

[Accura]

As somebody who does the daily commute between Preston and Manchester it's hard to fault Northern. Yes, they have old trains, but the refreshes are certainly helping to spruce things up. But I find them far more responsive to customer demand. I'm very impressed by the capacity improvements that have been put in place (most units on this heavily used line seem to be doubles), and I have never been more than 5 minutes late with a Northern service.

In fact in the whole 3 months, I've only ever been late for work once... on a TPE service, because the much newer Class 185 I was on broke down near Horwich for about 25 minutes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Northern can reasonably say that they have no contract beyond 31 March 2014, and direct all enquiries to the DfT.
The franchise extension to 2016 is not agreed yet.

What could be the reasons why the agreement extension to 2016 has not yet been reached ? Do the Northern Rail parent companies have any problems with the DfT ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What could be the reasons why the agreement extension to 2016 has not yet been reached ? Do the Northern Rail parent companies have any problems with the DfT ?

No, on the contrary, Serco and Abellio appear to be well regarded by DfT.
But I meant the responsibility for services after March is down to DfT.
NT's extension (and FKTPE's) is probably bogged down in devolution politics and strategy.

Northern's ownership is of course the same as that of Merseyrail.
Compare and contrast!
I know the contracts are different (short franchise vs long concession).

 

[Sheepy1209]

I agree with Accura - I'm not a commuter, but use Northern or TPE from Blackpool quite frequently. The route to York used to be flakey a few years ago (common to turn westbound trains at Preston to recover time on the return) but seems better now; while the routes to Manchester and Liverpool just seem to be boringly functional, if a little busy at times.

OK so a two-car 150 to Preston on a Saturday is standing all the way, and the windows won't stay shut - but it turns up on time and does the job with generally friendly and pragmatic staff.

The only significant delays I've encountered recently were when a late-running 6-car 185 meant a Northern 156 arrived at Picc first and was packed to the rafters; it started on time and then fell behind presumably due to the increased dwell times (and possibly the extra weight?). So a poor experience for passengers, but entirely down to TPE.

I'd rather have Northern than Cross-Country any day!

 

[455driver]

At least at Piccadilly I know they have cleaners going through moist trains on a regular basis and refreshes are being done..what more can be done? When it comes down to it like what has been said in another thread the passengers make the trains filthy inside lol

Do they leak that bad?
Have Newton Heath run out of duct tape?

I have only once taken a dirty train into service, I have taken 100s of dirty ones out of service though, the only difference is that the dirty ones have carried passengers!

 

[Silv1983]

Do they leak that bad?
Have Newton Heath run out of duct tape?

I have only once taken a dirty train into service, I have taken 100s of dirty ones out of service though, the only difference is that the dirty ones have carried passengers!

Duct tape would be an exquisite luxury! It's masking tape that is used to keep the cabs in "working" condition!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Our 323's since the refurb feel almost like brand new trains. They are well designed and pretty reliable and being 3 car emu's do have more space and by an emu's nature speedier.

I must confess that having the Northern Rail Class 323 units on our local line is one that both my wife and I are grateful for and indeed, we would be somewhat horrified if we lost these units on our line and found the entire stopping service run instead by "Newton Heath's finest"..hock:

 

[Tetchytyke]

At least at Piccadilly I know they have cleaners going through moist trains on a regular basis and refreshes are being done..what more can be done? When it comes down to it like what has been said in another thread the passengers make the trains filthy inside lol

Lots more can be done, it is just that Northern are not doing it. The basic refresh they are doing is simply not good enough.

The basic interiors of the Northern trains are just as they were when they took control of the stock. The seats on the ex-FNW 142s are either the original bench seats or the 1990s Merseyrail bench seats. The seats on the ex-FNW 156s date from a RRNW refurbishment in the early 90s. The seats on the cascaded 150s are the originals. The trains that are in better condition were refurbished in the late 90s (ex-FNW 150s, ex-NS 142s/156s), and even then they've not been touched since. The last time I took the Newcastle to Carlisle train the 156 in question had defective heaters in one carriage and mouldy carpets in the other. Passengers do many things to trains, but they don't cause them to go mouldy.

Northern have done nothing with their stock, despite the fact they have now been operating the franchise for nine years.

Look at what EMT have done with their 156s, and look at what Valley Lines/ATW did with their 142s/143s. It can be done, and it should have been done a long time ago. Painting the walls purple and sticking some new seat covers on is simply not acceptable.

 

[156441]

But have Arriva/EMT not had additional funding to 'grow' their franchise? Let's say it again. Northern is a 'no growth' franchise and why would they spend money they don't have to when it's not specified in their contract?

 

[YorkshireBear]

But have Arriva/EMT not had additional funding to 'grow' their franchise? Let's say it again. Northern is a 'no growth' franchise and why would they spend money they don't have to when it's not specified in their contract?

Yes they have. Lus EMT have london intercity operations thay help cash flow.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes they have. Lus EMT have london intercity operations thay help cash flow.

Well in the 2010 Northern Rail Limited announced profits of £29.9 million*, while East Midlands Trains Limited announced profits of £3.1 million so Northern Rail have a lot more of their own cash available for further investment than EMT do. Of course, EMT do spend a lot more on the upkeep of their rolling stock than Northern do.

* They've also made over £20 million pounds profit EVERY financial year except 2004/2005, which they only operated for part of the year but still made a profit. Arriva Trains Wales, in comparison, have never made more than £14 million profit and they did make a loss in 2002/2003. Maybe this is down to the franchise they have requiring them to spend more.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think it is because those franchises were let on a growth basis so any passneger number increases haven't meant extra revenue. Northern have benefited from the passenger numbers growth due to no growth franchise. Although I agree northern should try and spend more I can't imaginr the franchise uncertainty is helping matters!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Northern Rail make profits of over £20m a year. Northern Rail are not, and never have been, financially marginal. Serco and Abellio make plenty of money each year, money they make in part because they run a sub-standard service using sub-standard stock.

Brian Souter is not a man renowned for spending money like water, yet EMT have fully refurbished their 156 and 158 stock. In the time it has taken Northern to paint a grab rail purple, SWT have now undertaken a full refurbishment and then have just ordered a refreshment of their 455s.

Oh, and "no growth" simply meant that DafT didn't expect passenger numbers or ticket revenues to increase, and the franchise was let on that basis. But passenger numbers have rocketed, which has led to increased revenue, turnover and profit for Serco and Abellio. Instead of spending that juicy profit on developing the stock, they've decided to persist with what they had, doing the bare minimum whilst extracting eye-watering fares from passengers outside of the PTE areas.

I understand why Northern don't want to invest now, but they've held this franchise since 2004.

It may be endearing when a house has "period features", but Northern's 150s are still rattling around with the exact same fixtures and fittings they did when they were built thirty years ago.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Those refurbishments were part of franchise contract.Northern have fulfilled all their contract requirements too. Like I say franchise uncertainty ia thw main problem at the moment. Thwy are going through the fleet and doing work im noticing freaher 150s. Not refurbed but refreshed.

 

[northwichcat]

Those refurbishments were part of franchise contract.

EMT's refurbishment of the 158s to include higher density replacement seating was part of the franchise commitment but they weren't required to do any more with the 153s and 156s than Northern were. When EMT got 4 cascaded Northern 156s they put them in to service with passenger notices apologising for the state they were in and saying they would be refurbished ASAP. In comparison, when Northern got the LM 150s they put them in to service as they were with no notices apologising for the poor standard and have only given them new seat covers and an external repaint - no replacement floor vinyl and no internal repaint.

 

[tbtc]

Northern Rail make profits of over £20m a year. Northern Rail are not, and never have been, financially marginal

There's a difference between the operation being "marginal" (which Northern clearly is, given the amount of subsidies) and the contract that the TOC has with the DFT being "marginal".

They may be making decent profits, but that doesn't mean that every improvement can be economically justified.

Basically, blame the DFT, not Northern. Why should a private company spend money upgrading trains that don't belong to them, when they aren't required to?

Oh, and "no growth" simply meant that DafT didn't expect passenger numbers or ticket revenues to increase, and the franchise was let on that basis. But passenger numbers have rocketed, which has led to increased revenue, turnover and profit for Serco and Abellio. Instead of spending that juicy profit on developing the stock, they've decided to persist with what they had, doing the bare minimum whilst extracting eye-watering fares from passengers outside of the PTE areas

Train capacity has also increased fairly significantly - Northern have kept virtually all of the units they inherited (apart from a handful of 158s to FSR/ 156s to EMT) but brought in various 142s, 150s, 322s...

The franchise was set up on a "no growth" basis, but we have seen something like a third more seats overall.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why should a private company spend money upgrading trains that don't belong to them, when they aren't required to?

And that, in one sentence, sums up everything that is wrong with the privatised railway.

There was me thinking that the TOCs were efficient and forward-thinking, investing in services for passengers and increasing numbers as a result. That's what ATOC tell us. And yet here's Serco refusing to do anything unless somebody else pays.

Of the "extra trains", the 158s were paid for by Yorkshire Forward and Merseyside PTE, the 322s by Yorkshire Forward and the 142s by GMPTE.

East Midlands Trains invested in their 156s despite not being required to do so. And that's Brian Souter, a man with extraordinarily short arms and very very deep pockets.

 

[YorkshireBear]

And that, in one sentence, sums up everything that is wrong with the privatised railway.

There was me thinking that the TOCs were efficient and forward-thinking, investing in services for passengers and increasing numbers as a result. That's what ATOC tell us. And yet here's Serco refusing to do anything unless somebody else pays.

Of the "extra trains", the 158s were paid for by Yorkshire Forward and Merseyside PTE, the 322s by Yorkshire Forward and the 142s by GMPTE.

East Midlands Trains invested in their 156s despite not being required to do so. And that's Brian Souter, a man with extraordinarily short arms and very very deep pockets.

But is that the fault of the TOCs or the people who made it private?

And it is all well and good saying TOCs are meant to be this and that. But the government continue to micro manage every decision they make so how are they supposed to make proper decisions?

Like tbtc says, it is the fault of the Dft and ultimately government not the TOCs.

 

[tbtc]

And that, in one sentence, sums up everything that is wrong with the privatised railway.

There was me thinking that the TOCs were efficient and forward-thinking, investing in services for passengers and increasing numbers as a result. That's what ATOC tell us. And yet here's Serco refusing to do anything unless somebody else pays

You're blaming the wrong people though.

 

[yorksrob]

You're blaming the wrong people though.

Perhaps concerns should be directed to Jonny Major and chums.