Does the railway do the right thing ?

[158801]

A passenger buys an Advance ticket from Glasgow to Carlisle - route 'TPE Only for the 07:10 departure.

Transpennine Express then cancel this train.

What would normally happen is that passengers would be allowed to catch the 07:37 Virgin service. The next TPE departure is 10:10.

However, this means that the Virgin 07:37 would be busier than normal and potentially mean that some passenger who are travelling with Virgin would have a more uncomfortable journey because of the overcrowding.

I would suspect that TPE don't pay Virgin for this but would expect the favour returned in the future.

Is this the right thing to do ?

Should TransPennine Express be issuing those passengers with TPE only tickets new, inter-available tickets at their own expense or provide buses ?

In the "real world" (and I'll use an airline as an example) if Ryanair cancelled a flight the passengers would not be allowed to travel BA - but rely on Ryanair putting them on the next flight.

Maybe if the railway was a little more strict then the use of Advance, Toc Specific and Route specific tickets would diminish and possibly generate more revenue ?

Maybe if others TOC's started to refuse "free" help then it would inspire the Train Operating Companies to try harder to reduce delays and cancellations.

Other possible scenarios.....

Pax has a Blackpool to Leeds ticket routed Burnley but Northern cancel two consecutive trains (hourly service). Pax would then normally travel via Manchester on TPE (a higher fare). Should Northern be forced to use buses or pay for their passengers to travel on a more expensive route

Pax has a London Midland Only ticket from Crewe to Euston. LM go on strike. Should LM be paying for it's customers to use Virgin by issuing inter-available tickets at their own expense.

 

[dzug2]

Well passengers who travelled on the 1010 would be entitled to a refund of their fare under the delay repay scheme

 

[NSEFAN]

I would have thought that a lot of it is down to the discretion of the guard, unless they've been instructed by control to accept certain tickets.

In the "real world" (and I'll use an airline as an example) if Ryanair cancelled a flight the passengers would not be allowed to travel BA - but rely on Ryanair putting them on the next flight.

The railways are more and more trying to act like airlines (certainly the Intercity ones are anyway), but I think the public still see them more like buses, where you can just catch the first one at your convenience. This is why you get a fair number of people who end up on the wrong trains for their tickets. I've even heard people saying "Well, it's all British Rail isn't it?" to the guard as an excuse.

 

[158801]

But quite often it is control who authorise the people to travel !

Not too bad when a 3 car train gets cancelled and they travel on a 11 car train instead.

Often though, the 11 car gets cancelled and they end up on a 3 car which is normally full anyway !

 

[NSEFAN]

I was referring more to people getting on the wrong train. You wouldn't turn up for a BA flight with a Ryanair ticket, but plenty of people turn up on (for example) an East Coast train with a Hull Trains advance fare, and expect to be able to travel. It's a different expectation that passengers have between the two industries.

The fact that different TOCs allow travel on each others' trains in times of disruption is possibly why this happens. Perhaps the railways in this country aren't so fragmented as we think?

 

[island]

Full service airlines regularly endorse tickets valid only on their services to other airlines in times of major disruption. I know there are financial arrangements involved. And a new EU law proposes to make this mandatory for all flights from the EU and EU airlines flying to the EU for delays over 12 hours.

 

[RJ]

In the "real world" (and I'll use an airline as an example) if Ryanair cancelled a flight the passengers would not be allowed to travel BA - but rely on Ryanair putting them on the next flight.

Maybe with that specific carrier but it's not unknown for other airlines to make an arrangement for another to carry its passengers when a cancellation occurs.

 

[anme]

Maybe not Ryanair, but I've had BA cancel flights and put me on another airline, and vice versa. It's not uncommon.

In the OP's case, I hope Virgin would carry the TPE passenger. It's hard to see why the passenger should be disadvantaged by privatisation.

 

[Sleepy]

Buses will not normally take other operators tickets though.

 

[Hadders]

We should remember that despite privatisation we do have a National Rail system with 'Britain's train companies working together'.

This suggests to me that TOC's should assist each other where it is appropriate to do so.

 

[reb0118]

Buses will not normally take other operators tickets though.

That is true even in times of disruption to another operator. That said First Glasgow do accept ScotRail tickets when authorised by both controls.

 

[TEW]

That's a pretty standard thing across First Group now, if a First Group TOC is having issues ticket acceptance is agreed on any local First Group buses. Stagecoach seem to do it as well.

 

[158801]

Maybe not Ryanair, but I've had BA cancel flights and put me on another airline, and vice versa. It's not uncommon.

In the OP's case, I hope Virgin would carry the TPE passenger. It's hard to see why the passenger should be disadvantaged by privatisation.

But the passenger has a choice -

"Do I pay £100 for any company and any train" or
"Do I pay £10 for travel by a company that has only 3 services per day so if one is cancelled I may have a problem"

 

[dzug2]

But the passenger has a choice -

"Do I pay £100 for any company and any train" or
"Do I pay £10 for travel by a company that has only 3 services per day so if one is cancelled I may have a problem"

But too many passengers do not realise that that is the choice they are making.

 

[dave_wm]

I see it more as a choice between:

Pay £100 for travel any company on any train.
Pay £10 for travel on a specified train.

With the advance fare you accept the inflexibility of having to catch the specified train but if the specified train is cancelled the railway has a responsibility to get you to your destination as close to the original arrival time as possible.

 

[anme]

But the passenger has a choice -

"Do I pay £100 for any company and any train" or
"Do I pay £10 for travel by a company that has only 3 services per day so if one is cancelled I may have a problem"

On the grounds of common decency I would not make passengers wait for the next TPE train.

 

[455driver]

I see it more as a choice between:

Pay £100 for travel any company on any train.
Pay £10 for travel on a specified train.

With the advance fare you accept the inflexibility of having to catch the specified train but if the specified train is cancelled the railway has a responsibility to get you to your destination as close to the original arrival time as possible.

No it doesnt, it has a responsibility to get you to your destination, if you have chosen a TOC specific ticket then the only obligation is for that TOC to get you to your destination, if you have to wait 4 hours for the next train then strictly speaking you will have to wait for the 4 hours. Okay most of the times the staff (and railway) will get you on the next convenient service regardless of TOC but they are under no obligation to do so.

 

[reb0118]

But the passenger has a choice -

"Do I pay £100 for any company and any train" or
"Do I pay £10 for travel by a company that has only 3 services per day so if one is cancelled I may have a problem"

But too many passengers do not realise that that is the choice they are making.

I see it more as a choice between:

Pay £100 for travel any company on any train.
Pay £10 for travel on a specified train.

With the advance fare you accept the inflexibility of having to catch the specified train but if the specified train is cancelled the railway has a responsibility to get you to your destination as close to the original arrival time as possible.

What about if you hold a company (TOC "A") specific ticket that is not train specific and your choice of that TOC's train is cancelled - should you be allowed to take another TOC's train?

Would it make a difference if that was the last TOC A train of the day or not?

 

[edwin_m]

No it doesnt, it has a responsibility to get you to your destination, if you have chosen a TOC specific ticket then the only obligation is for that TOC to get you to your destination, if you have to wait 4 hours for the next train then strictly speaking you will have to wait for the 4 hours. Okay most of the times the staff (and railway) will get you on the next convenient service regardless of TOC but they are under no obligation to do so.

However the passenger faced with a 4 hour delay would have a valid Delay Repay claim, and if the train cancelled was the last one of the day the TOC would have to shell out for a long distance taxi. Once admin costs are allowed for the TOC would probably have made a loss. I believe the current arrangement is a simple reciprocal agreement with no fees involved (can anybody confirm?) so on the whole both the TOCs and the passengers benefit.

I was certainly grateful during the Retford dewirement a couple of months back that my Nottingham-Glasgow Advance was honoured without quibble on a 100% different route via Manchester and Preston, which was actually slightly quicker than the one I had booked.

 

[Goatboy]

But too many passengers do not realise that that is the choice they are making.

Because it's not the choice they are making.

They are deciding whether to accept a certain journey time and a mandatory train choice in return for a cheaper ticket. Not chosing whether to accept potential long delays and problems in the event of an issue.

 

[edwin_m]

Because it's not the choice they are making.

They are deciding whether to accept a certain journey time and a mandatory train choice in return for a cheaper ticket. Not chosing whether to accept potential long delays and problems in the event of an issue.

This would only apply if it was made clear to them at the time of purchase along with all the other terms and conditions.

 

[sheff1]

Well passengers who travelled on the 1010 would be entitled to a refund of their fare under the delay repay scheme

.. plus, if the air travel model was adopted, the sterling equivalent of €250 in compensation !