What is wrong with Northern Rail?

[Manchester77]

So what trains do you propose would replace them?

 

[455driver]

So what trains do you propose would replace them?

And who pays?

 

[thenorthern]

No you carnt, It should be a stated aim to have these removed from the railway before 2020.

Scrapping 125 fully working trains isn't a good idea when passengers are complaining about capacity issues and overcrowding.

 

[AndyLandy]

Quite. The truth of the matter is that we're still short on DMUs, despite all the upcoming electrification works. As such, if it's cost-effective to make the 143 and 144 fleet PRM-TSI compliant, it's probably worth doing.

The sad fact is that some regional services probably still can't afford to justify anything other than a Pacer service. That said, I'd like to think we might at least see the 142 fleet withdrawn by 2020.

 

[Muzer]

I was actually quite impressed by the 144 I travelled on for the first time a month or so ago. It wasn't as nice as a sprinter, sure, but it wasn't THAT bad. The 142s, on the other hand, ARE pretty awful, and it'll be a good thing to see them go. I've never been on a 143, but that might change tomorrow.

I must say, that refurbishment looks pretty nice. I wonder if it'll look as good in reality

 

[yorksrob]

On the old "who pays " question, they managed to find someone to replace a load of non-life expired slammers a few years ago. And before anyone says otherwise, the southern TOC‘s had a habit of being in subsidy at the time, rather than coughing up riches beyond the dreams of avarice to the Gmt.

 

[tbtc]

The sad fact is that some regional services probably still can't afford to justify anything other than a Pacer service

True.

Not every line can justify a 100mph train with two hundred seats (minimum) - we need to accept this

 

[47802]

So what trains do you propose would replace them?

Well clearly the DFT will need to look at how many units are displaced by electrification and how many should be retained for extra capacity and at the moment there appear to be still a lot of unknowns with regards to this, the DFT may already know a lot of this but obviously the average punter like myself doesnt.

At the moment its still not clear how much new electric stock will be funded, where the cascaded electric stock will go, where the cascaded diesel stock will go, whats happening with the 222's for instance will they replace HST's or will they replace existing sprinter services, clearly the latter would be benificial for a unit cascade and Railbus replacement, also how much diesel over new electric routes will be retained thats also going to have an impact.


I would hope we can get to the elimination position with the above, if not the some form of replacement will need to be looked at.

Also at the moment got an electric branch being worked by 158's, it would also seem to me that potentially at least some morpeth services could be electric worked if they were terminated at Newcastle instead of the metro centre and spare ac stock was availble.

While the notion that some lines carnt afford anything better than a pacer I think thats a debatable point given in some cases they are not actually working the routes they were intended, ok maybe you try looking at a bogied heavy duty tram type train that could meet railway standards and is cheaper than a 172, but i doubt that the order will be big enough to justify the development, I was on a Lincoln Sheffield service not long ago and frankly if we cannot find something better than a railbus for a service between these 2 major cities its a poor state of affairs, you cannot spend 40 billion on HS2 and say you cannot aford to get rid of the railbuses.

 

[Anvil1984]

Also at the moment got an electric branch being worked by 158's, it would also seem to me that potentially at least some morpeth services could be electric worked if they were terminated at Newcastle instead of the metro centre and spare ac stock was availble.

.

Not the best example, the service is ran with 142s / 156s (about 50 / 50 split) not 158s and it would save at the most 2 units (1 unit for most of the day and an additional unit for the morning / evening Chathill service). Probably not worth putting such a small number of EMUs at a depot

 

[47802]

Not the best example, the service is ran with 142s / 156s (about 50 / 50 split) not 158s and it would save at the most 2 units (1 unit for most of the day and an additional unit for the morning / evening Chathill service). Probably not worth putting such a small number of EMUs at a depot

Well if we want to eliminate these units we need to look at things like this eventually, especially with a reluctance to build new diesel stock.

Also why not try reading my post correctly i said an electric branch that was 158 worked, ie refering to the lymington branch.

 

[455driver]

On the old "who pays " question, they managed to find someone to replace a load of non-life expired slammers a few years ago.

What were they then?

 

[al78]

On the issue of whether Pacers should be replaced, can anyone verify the truth of the following statement in this Wikipedia article:

"Under the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 all public transport must be accessible by 2019. Pacers are unable to meet this requirement so may have to be withdrawn by the end of 2019 unless there is a change in legislation."

 

[Manchester77]

Pretty sure the DDA was replaced by the 2010 equality act.

But 2019 is the cut off date but the part about withdrawal isn't true as we can see there is a possibility for some members of the pacer family to continue.

 

[CalderRail]

By sealed shut, do you mean locked because of a fault/vandalism, or do you mean physically sealed shut and never used?

Some of each, I think.

There's supposed to be at least one working toilet on most sets AFAIK, but on some there's only one & if something happens to it...

 

[Manchester77]

What were they then?

Indeed even NSE had started to withdraw its slammers with the advent of the networkers. Using the 411s (4CEP) as an example the newest were built in 1963 which was older than the stock used on the WCML at the time of their replacement.

And it's not like they had much choice to replace them as the mark I coach design had been deemed unsafe (or something like that).

 

[Anvil1984]

Well if we want to eliminate these units we need to look at things like this eventually, especially with a reluctance to build new diesel stock.

Also why not try reading my post correctly i said an electric branch that was 158 worked, ie refering to the lymington branch.

Apologies for misreading but surely understandable as you don't mention Lymington at all in your post and people would struggle to think Lymington Pier in a thread about Northern Rai

There is no point at severing the link at Newcastle, quite a few passengers travel through to the Metrocentre and I don't think they would like their journey times potentially doubled just to save 1 unit which is not cost efficient when it comes to maintainence etc. If Northern Heaton depot had 3 EMUs for 1.5 diagrams for most of the day you'd have 2 trains sat around doing nothing stock utilisation of 33% which again costs more money than its worth

 

[NathanPrior]

So 2 trains yesterday and 2 delays, and that's why I try not to travel with them

 

[47802]

Apologies for misreading but surely understandable as you don't mention Lymington at all in your post and people would struggle to think Lymington Pier in a thread about Northern Rail

Ok i didnt make it as clear as might, I certainly hope most if not all are gone by 2020.

I certainly think there is still a lot uncertainty around the current electrification and rolling stock programme, to be able to make blunt statements that there wont be sufficient capacity to do without them by 2020.

 

[thenorthern]

I doubt 125 new trains will be built by in 7 years.

By the way does this DDA law apply to stations as well as many stations I can think of will fall foul of this law.

Looking at the law it will mean that Teesside Airport station will need remodelling, I somehow doubt though Network Rail will pay for it.

 

[47802]

There is no point at severing the link at Newcastle, quite a few passengers travel through to the Metrocentre and I don't think they would like their journey times potentially doubled just to save 1 unit which is not cost efficient when it comes to maintainence etc. If Northern Heaton depot had 3 EMUs for 1.5 diagrams for most of the day you'd have 2 trains sat around doing nothing stock utilisation of 33% which again costs more money than its worth

I think there are a number of comments around that

Firstly some desicions will need to made on revenue gained by through diesel working on electrified route verses running the diesel and electric parts seperataly.

An emu fleet could also provide peak time capacity between Darlington and Newcastle, possibly a small scheme to extend electrification to the metro centre, maybe an opportunity to improve the service to chathill, or instead look at extending at least on a 2 hourly basis the eventual electrified TPX service to Morpeth,

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On the issue of whether Pacers should be replaced, can anyone verify the truth of the following statement in this Wikipedia article:

"Under the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 all public transport must be accessible by 2019. Pacers are unable to meet this requirement so may have to be withdrawn by the end of 2019 unless there is a change in legislation."

It's now under EU equality legislation, which is not quite so onerous.
You can also get derogation from the regs on a case-by-case basis, depending on the degree of non-compliance and how long it will last (eg not enlarging displays by a few millimetres, on trains with a remaining service life of say 5 years, will probably be allowed).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Majority of people really don't like Northern Rail...Why?

I will cite one particular example of how expectations were allowed to rise in East Lancashire with the May 2014 new proposed service from Blackburn/Accrington/Burneley Manchester Road/Copy Pit Line/Todmorden/Rochdale/Manchester. Even allowing for the remedial works in the Holme Tunnel that will also disrupt the Northern Rail Blackpool to York service during the 2013 winter, there are some forum members on this website who claim that there will not be rolling stock to run it when May 2014 arrives. Just imagine how this news will be received in East Lancashire.

I understand that Peter Magill, the chief reporter of the Lancashire Telegraph, which is the local newspaper covering this area, will be speaking to Northern Rail to establish the veracity of the situation early this coming week.

 

[Buspilot]

Having visited the UK in the last fortnight and initially having travelled on the Gatwick Express and then Southern's services out to Kent from both London Victoria and St Pancras on modern, clean, smart not over crowded stock, the standard, lack of cleanliness, age and overcrowding on Northern Rail services, when I eventually got to Manchester, was blaintently obvious. It is simply a disgrace that a train company is operating such dated and dirty stock in 2013.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Having visited the UK in the last fortnight and initially having travelled on the Gatwick Express and then Southern's services out to Kent from both London Victoria and St Pancras on modern, clean, smart not over crowded stock, the standard, lack of cleanliness, age and overcrowding on Northern Rail services, when I eventually got to Manchester, was blaintently obvious. It is simply a disgrace that a train company is operating such dated and dirty stock in 2013.

Southern's "turn" came around 2000 when all the 1960s/70s slam-door stock was replaced (applied to South Eastern and South West Trains too).
They also keep London ticking which is important.

The "north"'s turn has yet to come, but is planned to be around 2017-20 .
It has never had the modernisation and electrification over the years that happened south/east of the Thames, except for small pockets around Manchester and Leeds.
Times are changing, but it has barely started yet.
It will look a lot different in 5-7 years time.

 

[Buspilot]

One of the main bones of contention is in the presentation of stock. No matter what time of day, South Eastern and Southern's stock is clean and rubbish has been removed from previous journeys. Regretably, that is not the case on Northern Rail. Interiors are dirty and smell and rubbish is not cleared up. Cleanliness does not appear to exist at Northern Rail.

I am now a visitor to the UK and do not like what I see or understand why people using Northern regularly put up with travelling in what is only little cleaner at times than a road sweeper's cart. It is far from a pleasant experience.

Cleanliness is something that can be addressed now, not in the future.

During my recent trip, besides Southern, South Eastern and Gatwick Express, I travelled on services operated by Chiltern, Cross-Country, Arriva Trains Wales and London Midland. All keep their trains far cleaner and present them for service in better condition than Northern.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't know, it depends what bits of Northern rail you're on. I was on one of their services out in the sticks yesterday and a cleaner came through mid journey collecting litter. This was also on a refurbed 156, which surely must rank as the pick of their fleet.

 

[47802]

Southern's "turn" came around 2000 when all the 1960s/70s slam-door stock was replaced (applied to South Eastern and South West Trains too).
They also keep London ticking which is important.

The "north"'s turn has yet to come, but is planned to be around 2017-20 .
It has never had the modernisation and electrification over the years that happened south/east of the Thames, except for small pockets around Manchester and Leeds.
Times are changing, but it has barely started yet.
It will look a lot different in 5-7 years time.

Will it given a lot of the current diesel stock will still be there in 7 years time, the 'New' electric stock is no newer than the current diesel stock.

Obviously the quality of the interior and and cleanliness of the train could have a significant impact, but that applies now as well as 5 years time.

If you compare a northern 158 to an EMT/GW or now even an Arriva 158 they dont compare very well.

 

[anti-pacer]

One of the main bones of contention is in the presentation of stock. No matter what time of day, South Eastern and Southern's stock is clean and rubbish has been removed from previous journeys. Regretably, that is not the case on Northern Rail. Interiors are dirty and smell and rubbish is not cleared up. Cleanliness does not appear to exist at Northern Rail.

I am now a visitor to the UK and do not like what I see or understand why people using Northern regularly put up with travelling in what is only little cleaner at times than a road sweeper's cart. It is far from a pleasant experience.

Cleanliness is something that can be addressed now, not in the future.

During my recent trip, besides Southern, South Eastern and Gatwick Express, I travelled on services operated by Chiltern, Cross-Country, Arriva Trains Wales and London Midland. All keep their trains far cleaner and present them for service in better condition than Northern.

Completely agree with this!

I am about to travel to Carlisle on Northern and to be honest, I'm not expecting much.

Litter attracts litter, and if there's litter already present on the train, well people think it's OK to add to it.

I sincerely hope I'm proven wrong today, and should this be the case, I will be more than happy to share it with you.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

During my recent trip, besides Southern, South Eastern and Gatwick Express, I travelled on services operated by Chiltern, Cross-Country, Arriva Trains Wales and London Midland. All keep their trains far cleaner and present them for service in better condition than Northern.

I do agree on presentation.
There is considerable PR benefit in having on-train cleaners, because it shows they "care".
It also keeps the ruffian element quiet.
I think all the TOCs you mention do on-train cleaning.
Merseyrail runs an old fleet of metro-type trains, but manages to keep them clean and tidy.
It even has a "no feet on seats" rule which is another useful discipline.

 

[northwichcat]

It's now under EU equality legislation, which is not quite so onerous.
You can also get derogation from the regs on a case-by-case basis, depending on the degree of non-compliance and how long it will last (eg not enlarging displays by a few millimetres, on trains with a remaining service life of say 5 years, will probably be allowed).

The impression I get is the Secretary of State for Transport is allowed to issue an exemption order but the idea of that is to not waste money on very minor infringements e.g. LED display being 1mm too small, where the train is due for replacement in say 2022. Alternatively, to cover an emergency situation like a fleet of complaint trains being grounded for some reason or to cope with huge unexpected passenger growth until additional complaint carriages can be procured.