Litter tax for railway stations?

[maniacmartin]

I was reading the Northern Rail litter thread but that has become derailed into a stock discussion so I'm starting a new thread.

Most of the litter I see on trains is items bought from in-station vendors such as SSP, so why not impose a fee on them, either as part of their rent, or per item they sell to passengers. This could then pay for extra cleaners to clear up the rubbish their products generate.

Of course passengers could also tidy up their own litter, but many won't, and if they all decided to, the rolling stock's bins are too small to hold it all anyway, and due to 'security' stations seem to have had all their bins removed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The discarded packaging used by many of the fast-food "take-away" outlets is one matter in particular that has caused much annoyance to both bus and train companies and to the majority of their customers.

 

[plymothian]

So basically the price of the product to the customer would increase.

 

[northwichcat]

Regarding larger stations with no bins there seems to be a presumption that if you leave your rubbish on the floor next to a seat it won't be long before a member of cleaning staff is along to collect it. This is different to open spaces where there might be not be anyone employed to collect rubbish and it would sit there and rot.

 

[yorksrob]

Station outlets tend to be more expensive than equivalents elsewhere, so any increases would just get more people buying outside the station with less money going to the railway.

It is an issue, particularly as so many are used to stations not having bins.

 

[DownSouth]

I'm aware of a number of places in South Australia (e.g. large shopping complexes) which do specifically include cleaning costs in their lease agreements for places selling food in disposable wrappers, but that's always a private arrangement at the discretion of centre management. Station operators could consider doing this, with incentives for food retailers which have a low proportion of their wrappers found in random litter surveys.

Has the responsibility (or lack of) held by a food retailer for what happens to "their" wrappers once sold been tested in court in England yet?

I don't think a tax would work. It would be too hard to enforce, unfair to places that have a high proportion of people eating inside their premises (and therefore discarding or disposing of the wrapper there as well) and probably an overall loss-making exercise for everybody. It also wouldn't do anything to address the problem at its root - public attitudes to littering.



A sustained PR/education campaign trying to change public behaviour would be better. There are many ways this could work, one that's popular and relatively effective in Australia is the yearly regional, state and national "tidiest town" awards which work by engaging the same local pride that normally goes into local sporting teams.

I even know of two neighbouring towns (neighbouring = 50km apart in this case) which integrated this into their humorous annual competition for the WAAC Trophy (Win At All Costs) - contested in football and cricket by the men's teams, netball and hockey by the women's teams, and the higher ranking in the regional tidiest town awards as the fifth event. It occasionally has the odd effect of making the tidiest town contest a bigger event (and therefore subject to more cheating and taunts in the local papers) than any of the four sports were, such as the year one town had a useless footy team so they bribed (with beer, of course) the judge to look at the other place the morning after the whole town had partied hard over the football win, the place was a mess so they ranked lowest in the tidiest town competition and lost the WAAC Trophy.



For pre-packaged drinks in cans, bottles or cartons, a container deposit scheme works well in South Australia for general litter reduction in public places. A deposit of 10 cents is paid to the government by the manufacturer/importer and included in the retail price of a pre-packaged drink sold in SA, and if you choose you can collect a refund when you hand it in at a recycling depot. The main purpose of the scheme is litter reduction, and to see that it works you just need to drive over the state border and see the difference in the cleanliness of public places with far fewer drink containers and plastic bags lying around (it's illegal for shops to supply plastic carry bags free of charge at the checkout, you need to pay).

It's not a huge amount of money (it's about 2-7% extra on a discretionary purchase) but it's enough of an incentive for socially marginalised people and community groups like churches who can make a decent amount of money off collecting thousands of discarded cans/bottles/cartons while also helping keep public places clean.

Just for a bit of trivia, South Australia is the only place in the world where a milk drink - Farmers Union Iced Coffee - outsells Coke, which even drove Coca-Cola to launch their own milk drink range which tasted terrible and tanked badly when retailers refused to stock it.


The container deposit label is circled at the bottom. The photo is mine, but unfortunately that particular carton of FUIC was not.

 

[anti-pacer]

I think peoples attitudes to litter need changing, starting with local authorities taking a massive zero tolerance stance on it by making the scrotes who litter streets spend a week cleaning the streets or face a criminal record, heavy fine or both.

Harsh maybe! So what! I resent as a clean, non-littering council tax payer for part of my hard earned money being spent to clean up after dirty, lazy peasants who think it's socially acceptable to drop their cr*p on the streets!

Wakefield, where I live, in parts has a big problem with littering, and a cash strapped council try hard to keep on top of it but are failing unfortunately! A large element of this city are filthy, and only this afternoon whilst paying a visit to the toilet in a pub, a guy who'd been for a "sit down" (I'm being polite - I heard him), came out of the cubicle and didn't even wash his hands! I've NEVER seen that before and I was shocked, even here! This is what we're up against here.

I also think Northern towns and cities are dirtier as people seem to have lower standards up here, in my visual opinion, and I am a Northerner who's lived in the North, South, and the Midlands.

 

[maniacmartin]

A reward for handing in litter would certainly work. You might even end up with passengers picking up random litter to collect litter (as happens in the US). However, I feel that the administration costs of such a scheme might render it unviable, if its only 5 or 10p per item

 

[DownSouth]

I think peoples attitudes to litter need changing, starting with local authorities taking a massive zero tolerance stance on it by making the scrotes who litter streets spend a week cleaning the streets or face a criminal record, heavy fine or both.

Harsh maybe! So what! I resent as a clean, non-littering council tax payer for part of my hard earned money being spent to clean up after dirty, lazy peasants who think it's socially acceptable to drop their cr*p on the streets!

"Zero tolerance" rarely works with improving any public behaviour, all it would lead to is demoralised council inspectors getting fed up with their job with the abuse they would cop. It would cost a hell of a lot more to enforce than employing cleaners.

To make a proper change in behaviour you need to provide positive reinforcement that encourages the change.

A large element of this city are filthy, and only this afternoon whilst paying a visit to the toilet in a pub, a guy who'd been for a "sit down" (I'm being polite - I heard him), came out of the cubicle and didn't even wash his hands! I've NEVER seen that before and I was shocked, even here! This is what we're up against here.

Oh my goodness! You've never seen somebody use a toilet and not wash their hands?

I think you need to get out more, you've obviously had an extremely sheltered middle class upbringing and a dose of reality could be good for you.

A reward for handing in litter would certainly work. You might even end up with passengers picking up random litter to collect litter (as happens in the US). However, I feel that the administration costs of such a scheme might render it unviable, if its only 5 or 10p per item

Of course the costs would make it unviable, instead of employing cleaners you would be employing clerks to count litter brought to them by volunteers, and that's before you add in the cash handouts.

I approve of container deposits for recyclable drink containers which are single objects that can be picked up, but for general litter I'm not to keen on encouraging people to collect it and take it to a depot because of the hygiene and safety issues - what if a person picks up a paper bag and gets stuck with a used needle they weren't expecting to find inside? Would the capacity to be paid for it make them an employee and therefore eligible for worker's injury compensation? Rather than paying members of the public, I think it's actually not a bad thing to give somebody a job where they can be paid properly (instead of employing somebody to count pieces of litter and hand out cash) and supplied with the appropriate equipment (thick gloves, long tongs and trolley) to do the job efficiently and safely.

Just because some cities in the USA might do that kind of thing doesn't make it a good thing. You have to remember that there is generally quite a primitive attitude towards public safety issues and funding public services properly there compared to more progressive places like the UK, Europe, Australia and so on.

Edited to clarify: Specifically referring to the railway environment, the last thing you want to be doing is giving members of the public good reasons (i.e. earning money for cleaning) to go down to the track or muck about on platform edges with home-made litter pickers. Cleaning at stations should be kept restricted to those who have been given a proper site induction outlining the limits of their remit, and appropriate tools to pick litter off the track from the safety of a platform without needing to put anybody in danger of getting hit by a train. Remember the Ian Faletto case?

 

[route:oxford]

Regarding larger stations with no bins there seems to be a presumption that if you leave your rubbish on the floor next to a seat it won't be long before a member of cleaning staff is along to collect it.

People "presume" because they are aware that is *exactly* what happens.

Besides, if you buy food in a restaurant on private property and don't leave the private property. It's not unreasonable to leave the crockery and cutlery behind.

If you ever visit Scotland, you'll find station staff place a greater priority on sweeping the station and clearing litter because of the SLAg...

 

[anti-pacer]

Oh my goodness! You've never seen somebody use a toilet and not wash their hands?

Not after a "number two" no! :roll:

Doesn't mean I have had a sheltered, middle class upbringing at all. I live on a working class council estate actually!

 

[TheWalrus]

One way of doing it would be to tax on the amount of packaging used, which in theory would encourage producers to use less packaging. Is this what you are thinking? It may work in a way.

 

[broadgage]

I would be in favour of a general packaging tax, not just on railway premises.
A lot of rubbish stills go to landfill, and we are running out of landfill space.
Scarce rescources are also used to produce packaging.
A simple tax by weight or volume should do.

A compromise might be to tax only plastic packaging. Metal and glass are less of a problem as they are readily recycled. Paper and card though initialy unsightly do decompose if dumped outside, plastic remains almost indefinatly.

 

[maniacmartin]

I was thinking more along the lines of a contractual levy imposed by the TOCs that lease the premises actually, however a real government-backed tax might help.

 

[Skymonster]

They've partly got themselves to blame - put in more bins and more folks might use them but at major stations finding a bin can sometimes be like trying to find rocking horse droppings

 

[DownSouth]

I was thinking more along the lines of a contractual levy imposed by the TOCs that lease the premises actually, …

Couldn't that be more simply effected by just raising the rent?

 

[FGW_DID]

They've partly got themselves to blame - put in more bins and more folks might use them but at major stations finding a bin can sometimes be like trying to find rocking horse droppings

Ah that old chestnut! Is there a bin every 5 ft on every street in every town, what about in rural areas?

Take your rubbish with you!

The worst Tw@ts are the ones who leave their rubbish on the floor/seats and there is a bin less then 5 ft away. In my experience it's not the chavvy "Jeremy Kyle" clan either, it's the well dressed business commuters who are the worst culprits.

 

[maniacmartin]

Couldn't that be more simply effected by just raising the rent?

No. Because the rent would still be a fixed cost unrelated to how much litter is sold. If the levy was related to the amount of litter the stuff they sold generated, you might find the packaging reducing rapidly.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Take your rubbish with you!

Where to? The only option really is on to the train, if you're hemmed into the platform by ticket barriers and can't escape to use external bins. And on-train bins are generally very small. It just seems rather silly to be encouraging people to deposit their rubbish on the train instead of the station.

 

[FGW_DID]

Where to?

Put it in your pocket, your bag, carry it until you get to a bin! Take it home if you have to!

What do you do if you are in the street and there's not a bin nearby? Throw it on the ground, leave it on someone's wall?

 

[Aldaniti]

Put it in your pocket, your bag, carry it until you get to a bin! Take it home if you have to!

That is what I tend to do, but if the railway provides catering outlets where packaging is provided it also has a social responsibility to provide bins in my opinion. The terrorism excuse has been used for far too long.

 

[Altnabreac]

A compromise might be to tax only plastic packaging. Metal and glass are less of a problem as they are readily recycled. Paper and card though initialy unsightly do decompose if dumped outside, plastic remains almost indefinatly.

You've obviously never been to Lanarkshire. Glass is the number 1 littering problem. Mainly due to those pesky monks at Buckfast Abbey:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckfast_Tonic_Wine

 

[sarahj]

I sometimes think the lack of bins is a bit of an OTT excuse. On our network its only really Victoria and Brighton that dont have any. Even having bins still does not stop a person peeling and eating a banana on a train, and leaving the peel on the seat.

And as for Wasabi noddles ( a pet hate of mine). Do they have to sell such big portions. so many times I have had a train stunk out by a half eaten tub of wasabi noodles. They are bought by people at Victoria, they eat half the tub, get off at east croydon. Tub stinks out the coach all the way to littlehampton.


I think the British are a bizzare race. We like to have our houses spotless, but think nothing of throwing rubbish away onto the floor, or leaving it behind. I have to admit my house is not spotless, but I never throw rubbish away onto the floor etc. I take it away with me, or put it in a bin. I got this from, as a child being on a train in Switzerland from Luzern to Basle, Train full of drunk football fans. I got chatting to another child. When the fans got off at Oltern, one dropped a bit of litter, which the other child pointed out to me. Since then, rubbish outside the house goes into a bin.

 

[A-driver]

That is what I tend to do, but if the railway provides catering outlets where packaging is provided it also has a social responsibility to provide bins in my opinion. The terrorism excuse has been used for far too long.

All catering outlets will take back their own rubbish, they have to. If you buy a pasty from the pasty shop, eat it and hand the rubbish back they will dispose of it for you. Or if you are getting on the train/ through barriers take the food out of the packaging at the counter and carry it through unwrapped. If that isn't possible or desirable to you then think through what food you order packaging wise if not prepared to take the rubbish elsewhere with you.

And I don't buy the argument that train bins are too small, most are emptied on turnaround anyway. If the size of the bins was the problem then the bins would be overflowing and the rubbish would be piled up around the bins where people have attempted to throw stuff away. It's not, it's left on seats, tables, luggage racks, window ledges etc and so simply no effort whatsoever has been made to dispose of it properly.

 

[reb0118]

Putting a tax on wrappings may help but it also penalises the people who don't drop litter.

Why not charge a deposit on wrappings? Take your litter back to the outlet you purchased it from and get your deposit back. If someone drops litter then you can pick it up, return it to a participating outlet (they would all be participating due to legislation! ) and claim the deposit.

I have seen many a middle class German raking through the bins at stations for litter that pays out a deposit.

In Denmark I have seen lots of local jaikies scouring the grass verges for bottles & cans to return to Lidl to covert the deposit into Danish White Lightening! Everyone's a winner!

I think the British are a bizarre race. We like to have our houses spotless, but think nothing of throwing rubbish away onto the floor, or leaving it behind. I have to admit my house is not spotless, but I never throw rubbish away onto the floor &c.. I take it away with me, or put it in a bin. I got this from, as a child, being on a train in Switzerland from Luzern to Basel, Train full of drunk football fans. I got chatting to another child. When the fans got off at Oltern, one dropped a bit of litter, which the other child pointed out to me. Since then, rubbish outside the house goes into a bin.

Good post, my house is never tidy, too many rail maps & books cluttering up the place! - but I do not drop litter on the street/station! I have been known to use someone's wheelie bin though

When I was last in Switzerland I made a positive comment re. the lack of litter about - I received a party political broadcast on the benefits of not dropping litter by a local in return. BTW a small point you have correctly stated Luzern rather than Lucerne but you have fallen into the old trap of Basle for Basel so I have changed it for you. Both are predominately German speaking cities. I am becoming a severe pedant on this matter and do apologise if any offence is caused.

Back on topic (sort of) - for those you travel abroad do you notice a different attitude to litter in the various countries you travel in? Are, e.g., the Germanic lands cleaner than the Francophone. I noticed a big difference between Flemish Ghent & Walloon Liege.

 

[anti-pacer]

And I don't buy the argument that train bins are too small, most are emptied on turnaround anyway

If only that happened on Northern! ad:

 

[DownSouth]

No. Because the rent would still be a fixed cost unrelated to how much litter is sold. If the levy was related to the amount of litter the stuff they sold generated, you might find the packaging reducing rapidly.

Still plenty of capacity to do that simply by raising the rent instead of creating a whole new bureaucracy.

Simply select a few random days each year for a census of litter (i.e. a couple of people sort and count it instead of putting it straight in the big skips) collected by cleaners over the course of the day. If a certain outlet within the station complex is over-represented their rent gets raised at the next lease renewal. Simples.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm sure the major stations aren't letting these premises operate out of the goodness of their hearts. Infact, given the premium you pay at some of them, it seems like they're on a nice little earner - enough to arrange for clear plastic bags or regular litter collections.

I'll happily use the former, but if they aren't available, I'll leave station bought packaging somewhere discreet for collection.

 

[fowler9]

Lots of good ideas here but the thing is it all seems to come down to raise the rent on the retailers, raise fines, increase the policing, raise taxes. All this does is increase the cost to everyone and most people aren't litter louts. Raise awareness at a younger age and stop people littering in the first place. None if this is helped by the likes of my local council cutting bin collections to every 2 weeks. You watch, in a couple of years the railway embankment behind my house will start to look like the outskirts of a few cities I've seen around the world.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

"Zero tolerance" rarely works with improving any public behaviour, all it would lead to is demoralised council inspectors getting fed up with their job with the abuse they would cop. It would cost a hell of a lot more to enforce than employing cleaners.

Do you know of any evidence for your assertion that '"Zero tolerance" rarely works'? It seems to me to be a very counter-intuitive statement.