My Idea for a XC service to Inverness.

[Liam_Hendry]

The service from Plymouth to Aberdeen should run as Eight or Nine coaches and should split at Edinburgh. The Aberdeen portion will go via Markinch and Leauchers, and the Inverness portion continue to Haymarket, Falkirk, Stirling, Gleneagles, Perth and stations to Inverness.
Same on the way back where they both meet at Edinburgh and join there.

It'd be great competition against East Coast. 1 direct train up the Highland mainline from England in my opinion, is not enough. (Excluding the Caledonian Sleeper)

 

[TrainBoy98]

Eighty coaches?!

 

[alex17595]

It'd be great competition against East Coast. 1 direct train up the Highland mainline from England in my opinion, is not enough.

There is two, sleeper and east coast.

 

[VauxhallandI]

There is two, sleeper and east coast.

Only one if you are 6"7'...

 

[Roverman]

Scheduling would be an issue, its single track north of Perth and with a pretty frequent Scotrail timetable I wonder if there's much space left for a return service?

 

[34D]

Eighty coaches?!

Wow that will be a big train. Seriously though, when electrification can release more stock, this seems a good idea.

 

[Liam_Hendry]

Eight* Coaches, lol. I sounded crazy there for a couple of minutes.

 

[TrainBoy98]

Scheduling would be an issue, its single track north of Perth and with a pretty frequent Scotrail timetable I wonder if there's much space left for a return service?

Double track it? Or isn't that possible/viable?

 

[Liam_Hendry]

Scheduling would be an issue, its single track north of Perth and with a pretty frequent Scotrail timetable I wonder if there's much space left for a return service?

Instead of coupling with the Aberdeen-Penzance maybe it could couple to the Dundee-Plymouth. That means it could leave Inverness 20 mins before the East Coast. Could that work ?

 

[Exeter]

Competition between a HST or a Voyager - hmmmm, difficult decision!

 

[work-traveller]

Would there be much value in such a service? Reason being, if you're travelling from north of Edinburgh to south of Birmingham, it's about 1hr faster using the Virgin Cross Country service - and that's excluding the 35 minutes spent changing trains.

So, if you could take the service up the WCML to Carstairs and then across, that really would be an appealing prospect.

 

[route:oxford]

Instead of coupling with the Aberdeen-Penzance maybe it could couple to the Dundee-Plymouth. That means it could leave Inverness 20 mins before the East Coast. Could that work ?

Yes

As long as passengers were to prepared to pay the full peak price on Cross Country.

Most would either wait until after 9am, or take the Highland Chieftan to London then cross London for a First Great Western service for the "avoid XC" fare...

 

[DarloRich]

Yes

As long as passengers were to prepared to pay the full peak price on Cross Country.

Most would either wait until after 9am, or take the Highland Chieftan to London then cross London for a First Great Western service for the "avoid XC" fare...

or fly

 

[Class83]

Would there be much value in such a service? Reason being, if you're travelling from north of Edinburgh to south of Birmingham, it's about 1hr faster using the Virgin Cross Country service - and that's excluding the 35 minutes spent changing trains.

So, if you could take the service up the WCML to Carstairs and then across, that really would be an appealing prospect.

If you're travelling from Edinburgh to anywhere south of Birmingham (excluding London) and bothered about how long it takes then you'll be on a plane. The benefit would be the ability to load your luggage and read a book.

Not sure that there would be enough of a market to really justify it, but if there is could they split again at Bristol with half the train going to Cardiff and Swansea? Obviously this would involve some people changing which part of the train they were in at some point.

 

[matchmaker]

Double track it? Or isn't that possible/viable?

Possible? Yes. Viable? Never. The sections that are currently single track were always single track (apart from a section near Culloden) so the costs of doubling would be enormous.

 

[dk1]

You've then got to train XC crews on the route on what would probably be a very un productive diagram for them and for a train that could be far better used elsewhere. Sounds good but it really isn't worth the effort.

 

[Millisle]

I don't think the economics of the EC service north of Perth are too clever anyway. Further abstraction is not desirable.
The Highland Railway intended to double the whole route, but the First World War ended the progress. By the 1930s the LMS was evaluating closing the entire Highland section. I doubt if even the redoubling of of Blair Atholl to Dalwhinnie, done on the back of hoped for oil construction traffic, would take place today.

 

[34D]

You've then got to train XC crews on the route on what would probably be a very un productive diagram for them and for a train that could be far better used elsewhere. Sounds good but it really isn't worth the effort.

One could consider whether it is best to train XC staff on the route or best to train scotrail/DB-S/etc etc drivers on the voyagers.

 

[Liam_Hendry]

As far as training is concerned i'm sure there are plenty of Scotrail train crew members who would happily apply for XC. Instead of training the original staff for the route it would be easierfor XC to train a former Scotrail employee because 1- They would only be trained on THE XC trains as they know the route. 2- Training for the train takes up less time than route learning.

 

[dk1]

As far as training is concerned i'm sure there are plenty of Scotrail train crew members who would happily apply for XC. Instead of training the original staff for the route it would be easierfor XC to train a former Scotrail employee because 1- They would only be trained on THE XC trains as they know the route. 2- Training for the train takes up less time than route learning.

Well that's just great for Scotrail. This is never going to be a XC money spinner so why would they?

 

[Martin_1981]

I don't think splitting the Plymouth-Aberdeen/ Aberdeen-Penzance services at Edinburgh would be the ideal answer if an XC service to Inverness was ever to be considered. Should it ever be considered, probably best running a single Voyager between Edinburgh and Inverness as an extension of a Plymouth-Edinburgh service in each direction.

I remember back around 1998/99 that Virgin XC proposed extending the Edinburgh-Brighton service to run to and from Inverness, but the idea seemed to die of death.

 

[EricS]

What about simply having Scotrail operate Voyagers between Inverness/Aberdeen and Edinburgh, as suggested in this article in the Scotsman last month?

‘Bring tilting trains to Aberdeen, Inverness’ call

TILTING trains should run on lines north to Aberdeen and Inverness to cut journey times by 20 per cent so rail could better compete with road travel, a transport think tank has urged.

The move would shorten rail trips from Edinburgh to Aberdeen trips to less than 2 hours and to Inverness to 2 hours 40 minutes, according to the Scottish Association of Public Transport (SAPT).

The group argued that tilting diesel trains such as Voyagers, which can go round corners faster, would become available when other lines are electrified.

It fears that without significant improvements, rail travel to northern Scotland will become increasingly unattractive as driving times are reduced with the dualling of the A9 and A96.

SAPT chairman Dr John McCormick said: “The Class 170 Turbostars currently used by ScotRail are limited both in capacity and engine power to maintain principal intercity services into the future.

“Replacement diesel trains would have with faster acceleration and higher performance on gradients.

“Tilt operation to increase speed on curves - as used on the west coast main line - could save time in Fife, between Dundee and Aberdeen, and on the [Perth-Inverness] Highland Main Line.

“Speeds up to 20 per cent higher can be maintained on curves by tilting trains.”

Dr McCormick said the improvements would make train journeys from Edinburgh to Aberdeen nearly half an hour quicker than by car, and to Inverness around 15 minutes faster.

SAPT said other measures could include a new, more direct line between Inverkeithing in Fife and Perth, to cut a further 25 minutes from Edinburgh-Inverness journeys, and upgrades to other lines through Fife to reduce journeys to Aberdeen and Inverness by another seven minutes.

However, Network Rail told The Scotsman that tilting trains, which have heavier carriages than current trains on the routes, may not be any quicker because they may have to go slower over bridges with weight restrictions.

The Scottish Government’s Transport Scotland agency, said it would be seeking improvements to the services as part of the next ten-year ScotRail franchise from 2015.

A spokesman said: “Bidders for the next ScotRail franchise will be required to demonstrate how they will improve the comfort and suitability of trains operating on longer distance routes, including services from the Central Belt to Inverness and Aberdeen.”

He said there would also be “substantial improvements” to the [Perth-Inverness] Highland main line and Aberdeen-Inverness route by 2019.

A Network Rail spokesman said: “We are currently working with Transport Scotland to identify and implement initiatives which will enable journey time improvements on the Highland main line.”

He said by 2019, “we are committed to reducing journey times by ten minutes and delivering one service an hour between Inverness and Perth, extended onwards to either Glasgow or Edinburgh.”

 

[tbtc]

SAPT chairman Dr John McCormick said: “The Class 170 Turbostars currently used by ScotRail are limited both in capacity and engine power to maintain principal intercity services into the future

Hmm, does he know that a four coach Voyager would have fewer seats than any of FSR's 170s?

Also, interesting that he sees 158/170 operated Edinburgh/Glasgow to Inverness/Aberdeen as an "intercity" service (when compared to comments on the InterCity thread)

 

[marks87]

Hmm, does he know that a four coach Voyager would have fewer seats than any of FSR's 170s?

Also, interesting that he sees 158/170 operated Edinburgh/Glasgow to Inverness/Aberdeen as an "intercity" service (when compared to comments on the InterCity thread)

The Edinburgh-Aberdeen/Inverurie fasts stop only at Haymarket then Leuchars before Dundee, with some then missing out Montrose. In other words, fewer stops than the "InterCity" services operated by East Coast. There's no direct comparison from Glasgow, but the Chieftain stops at Glenaegles before Perth, while most Glasgow-Aberdeen services are Stirling only.

The distance involved is also comparable to some InterCity journeys down south.

So I'd say as routes, Edinburgh/Glasgow-Aberdeen fit the InterCity criteria. In fact, thinking about it more, Glasgow-Aberdeen links 5 of Scotland's 7 cities - surely InterCity by definition!

 

[Class83]

The Edinburgh-Aberdeen/Inverurie fasts stop only at Haymarket then Leuchars before Dundee, with some then missing out Montrose. In other words, fewer stops than the "InterCity" services operated by East Coast. There's no direct comparison from Glasgow, but the Chieftain stops at Glenaegles before Perth, while most Glasgow-Aberdeen services are Stirling only.

The distance involved is also comparable to some InterCity journeys down south.

So I'd say as routes, Edinburgh/Glasgow-Aberdeen fit the InterCity criteria. In fact, thinking about it more, Glasgow-Aberdeen links 5 of Scotland's 7 cities - surely InterCity by definition!

The Scotrail Edinburgh-Aberdeen services did used to stop at both Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy until the Teuchters took over the Scottish Parliament and decided that the best way to reduce journey times by 6 minutes (Scotrail are 55, East Coast are 61, and I suspect the slam doors on the HSTs cost an extra minute at each stop) was to remove the stops in the 3rd and 4th biggest urban areas on the route. There are also some of the Glasgow to Aberdeen services which skip Stirling.

 

[Liam]

The Scotrail Edinburgh-Aberdeen services did used to stop at both Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy until the Teuchters took over the Scottish Parliament and decided that the best way to reduce journey times by 6 minutes (Scotrail are 55, East Coast are 61, and I suspect the slam doors on the HSTs cost an extra minute at each stop) was to remove the stops in the 3rd and 4th biggest urban areas on the route. There are also some of the Glasgow to Aberdeen services which skip Stirling.

They also stopped at Cupar, Ladybank and Markinch, one even stopped at Springfield. Only every second one stopped at Inverkeithing.

Wasn't it in an effort to reduce overcrowding on the Southern part of the journey by taking the shorter journeys out? I would imagine most passengers from Kirkcaldy, Markinch, Ladybank and Cupar are only going as far as Edinburgh or Dundee. I know from experience how difficult it was tryng to get a seat on an Aberdeen-Edinburgh service at Markinch or Kirkcaldy.

At the same time they improved the service from Markinch and Ladybank to Edinburgh. 1 per hour from Perth/Inverness, 1 from Dundee.

 

[tbtc]

The Edinburgh-Aberdeen/Inverurie fasts stop only at Haymarket then Leuchars before Dundee, with some then missing out Montrose. In other words, fewer stops than the "InterCity" services operated by East Coast. There's no direct comparison from Glasgow, but the Chieftain stops at Glenaegles before Perth, while most Glasgow-Aberdeen services are Stirling only.

The distance involved is also comparable to some InterCity journeys down south.

So I'd say as routes, Edinburgh/Glasgow-Aberdeen fit the InterCity criteria. In fact, thinking about it more, Glasgow-Aberdeen links 5 of Scotland's 7 cities - surely InterCity by definition!

East Coast are hamstrung in that any attempt to speed up their token services north of Edinburgh would see complaints about how "Montrose/ Gleneagles etc can't lose its direct link to London" (cue politicians moaning about how their town is going to cut off somehow).

The reason for mentioning "InterCity" was that a lot of the posters in the InterCity thread suggested that a 100mph 170 (with 2/3rds doors) couldn't be classed as InterCity.

 

[Altnabreac]

I understand the main south of Edinburgh demand on the Aberdeen and Glasgow XC services are Newcastle and Leeds. Anywhere south of that and people tend to fly.

Obviously the Chieftain covers the Newcastle service but you could potentially see there being demand for an Inverness service that called at Leeds.

The market is probably quite small though and I doubt there are enough passengers to justify it. Another London service would probably make more sense if you felt extra English services were needed.

 

[Liam_Hendry]

I understand the main south of Edinburgh demand on the Aberdeen and Glasgow XC services are Newcastle and Leeds. Anywhere south of that and people tend to fly.

Obviously the Chieftain covers the Newcastle service but you could potentially see there being demand for an Inverness service that called at Leeds.

The market is probably quite small though and I doubt there are enough passengers to justify it. Another London service would probably make more sense if you felt extra English services were needed.

I feel there should more England services. I think there should be 2 INVSS and 2 ABDN daytime services from England, Instead of the 1 INVSS and 3 ABDN. If there is never going to be an extra Highland Mainline service from England would you think it would be better to divert an England to Aberdeen service via Falkirk, Stirling, Gleneagles and Perth ?? It would make stronger connection between Perth-Inverness (as Glasgow/Edinburgh to Inverness services both call at Perth) and also Falkirk, Stirling and Gleneagles. With the Ryder Cup coming up next year, it would be a good idea.

 

[Martin_1981]

What about reintroducing the 'Clansman' which ran back in the 80's and early 90's from Euston to Inverness via Birmingham? Run it with a Voyager/ double Voyager and it could even serve Manchester. Although it wouldn't be operated by XC it is kind of an XC service in a way, especially if it links Inverness with Carlisle, Preston, Manchester, Birmingham and Coventry.