Most amount of timetable padding?

[D6975]

The Night Riviera Sleeper. So much padding it has left Plymouth 102 late and arrived into Paddington 7 early!

I think the up riviera is timed to allow running via Bristol or Yeovil and arriving right time at Padd.
It quite often runs via Bristol, especially during Winter, and is sometimes actually timetabled to stop at TM and Swindon.

 

[pnepaul]

Today I was on the 13.10 Carlisle to London Euston via Birmingham (12noon ex Glasgow). We had a very leisurely journey between Stafford and Wolverhampton, I presumed we were stuck behind a slower train, however we arrived at Wolverhampton 3 mins early - so I guess a bit of padding in the schedule!

 

[crispy1978]

There seems to be a generous amount of time for the train between Seamer and Scarborough. Takes 4-5 minutes to get out there, but often 8-9 allowed on the return journey.

 

[Boysteve]

TPEx can be bad but it's combined over stops. Regularly Manchester to Newcastle trains stop at Leeds for about 6 minutes and then York for 10! That means arrival at Leeds to departure from York of over 40 minutes despite a 24 minute journey between the stops.

I think we should make a distinction with padding time. Some is genuinely to stop delays on one congested part of the nextwork being spread to another (TPEx maybe). Some are to keep clock face patterns when a service moves from one network/region to another, such as EC Highland Chieftan in which case it's not really padding. Genuine padding would mean the Southbound Inverness to LKX service would be scheduled to arrive at Edinburgh at 11:27 not 11:17 as at present.
However padding exists between Peterborough and LKX in spades and should be regulated or curtailed.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

I've noticed a reverse to padding on one of the Birmingham - Leicesters, in that it is booked to leave Water Orton 2 minutes later in the WTT than in the public timetable, however there is a 2 min path allowance at Landor Street Jn that would probably see it arrive at Water Orton 'on time' by the public TT anyway.

You're right about padding though, some of it is to regain a clockface timetable. I've noticed too in Open Train Times, there are some services that have 1-2 mins engineering allowances, however it seems to be the only train of the day that actually has an allowance but it does bring the times back to it's pattern, for example

Location A: Train 1 pass 08/01, Train 2 pass 09/01, Train 3 pass 10/00 (eng: 1)
Location B: Train 1 pass 08/03, Train 2 pass 09/03, Train 3 pass 10/03

 

[The Planner]

Two seperate things, the Landor St allwoance is for something coming across it from St Andrews.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Found it, it's 1 minute allowance at Landor Street Jn that adds the time to Water Orton. For at least the whole evening, that's the only XC Leicester that has 1 minute allowance there.

It might be because 1M95 Cardiff - Nottingham is 3 minutes ahead, otherwise nothing close by that crosses over at the junction. However surely that would be 1 minute pathing allowance either case, not 1 minute engineering allowance that it is given (Some TSR allowance that doesn't seem to affect any other train...)

 

[The Planner]

In which case that is the reason, 4 minute headway from Landor St to Water Orton IIRC. If 1M95 is 3 ahead then the following one needs bumping out. It is 1 minute pathing and not box time in the schedule.

 

[Taunton]

One of the more bizarre is Bidston to Wrexham where the hourly timetable shows all trains taking 60 or 61 minutes, departing at about the same time from each end, yet it just uses two trains, which consistently at Wrexham have to depart on the return journey before the incoming is due to arrive.

 

[D6975]

2200 Kings Cross to Newcastle is pretty bad. It sits at York for 26 minutes, and then has pathing allowances of 10 minutes between York and Darlington, and then 20 minutes between Durham and Newcastle. And even though it is set down only after York, the last time I was on it it waited time at Darlo and Durham

The padding to York is there for a good reason. This service is booked to run via Knottingley to maintain route knowledge. This means that it's at the mercy of the weekly schedule of coal trains and can get delayed as a result.

 

[D1009]

Of course! I have just realised that what I have read was referring to the Caledonian Sleeper which uses Class 90's

I would think similar rules would apply though. Is there anyone here who works on the Night Riviera?

I don't work on it, but I'm sure I heard the 57s are restricted to 70 mph on ATP (automatic train protection) fitted routes, because they are not fitted with ATP. Normally they go via the Berks and Hants route which means this is not relevant apart from Padd to Reading.

 

[edwin_m]

One of the more bizarre is Bidston to Wrexham where the hourly timetable shows all trains taking 60 or 61 minutes, departing at about the same time from each end, yet it just uses two trains, which consistently at Wrexham have to depart on the return journey before the incoming is due to arrive.

Discussed elsewhere on here recently. It's actually the same train - the turnaround is so short that the padding makes the arrival time later than the scheduled departure.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The padding to York is there for a good reason. This service is booked to run via Knottingley to maintain route knowledge.

RealTimeTrains says it goes straight up the ECML during the week, though I know it usually goes via Knottingley on a Sunday.

 

[SeanG]

The 2200 often arrives to Newcastle early, and hence to Heaton early.I should know, it often wakes me up

 

[D6975]

Real time trains says the 22:00 KGX-NCL runs via Knottingley every day - as it has done for a long time now. Knottingley S Jn at 00:08, Chuch Fenton 00:26, York 00:39/00:42. It is the ECML route that in this case is the diversion and causes the long wait at York when used.

 

[Martin_1981]

XC services on the NE-SW route have often been known to leave Birmingham New Street 20 mins late, yet are on time by the time they leave Exeter.

The 0900 Glasgow-Penzance was once 40 mins late leaving Birmingham, having been diverted from Derby via Leicester to Brum, yet it made up all but 2 minutes by St Erth and arrived in Penzance 3 mins early. Scheduled layovers at Bristol TM and Plymouth probably saved 20-25 mins.

A couple of years ago, the 12.24 Plymouth-Glasgow HST left Plymouth 55 mins late and arrived in Glasgow just 6 minutes late, though it did miss out its scheduled stops at Wakefield and Leeds, running instead Sheffield-York via Doncaster which saved around 25 mins.

 

[edwin_m]

XC services on the NE-SW route have often been known to leave Birmingham New Street 20 mins late, yet are on time by the time they leave Exeter.

The 0900 Glasgow-Penzance was once 40 mins late leaving Birmingham, having been diverted from Derby via Leicester to Brum, yet it made up all but 2 minutes by St Erth and arrived in Penzance 3 mins early. Scheduled layovers at Bristol TM and Plymouth probably saved 20-25 mins.

A couple of years ago, the 12.24 Plymouth-Glasgow HST left Plymouth 55 mins late and arrived in Glasgow just 6 minutes late, though it did miss out its scheduled stops at Wakefield and Leeds, running instead Sheffield-York via Doncaster which saved around 25 mins.

The "Operation Princess" timetable in 2002 accelerated the XC network to take advantage of the faster timings possible with Voyagers. However performance immediately collapsed and the timings were extended, perhaps too much. Hence the Voyagers have a lot of performance in reserve to recover from any delay.

Diversions to recover from delays are reasonably common, particularly if there is another train following that can take the passengers for the stations missed out. For example I've been on a Nottingham-Leeds diverted via Swinton and a Liverpool-Norwich diverted via Dore South Curve.

 

[The Planner]

The "Operation Princess" timetable in 2002 accelerated the XC network to take advantage of the faster timings possible with Voyagers. However performance immediately collapsed and the timings were extended, perhaps too much. Hence the Voyagers have a lot of performance in reserve to recover from any dealsy.

I would argue that a lot of XC running times are inadequate in places as they haven't been altered (and they haven't been altered much). The XC goal is A-B as quickly as possible with long layovers at B to make sure they have a good chance of their onward slot. They make up other time off engineering allowances, which they pick up a lot of on the routes they use and are also trying to get reduced.

 

[tony6499]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W72401/2013/10/04/advanced

First train from Brighton to London Victoria is shown to leave in the public timetable at 0350 but actually doesnt leave until 0415 - the time is there to allow for a diversion via Lewes.

No it is for when a bus is used between Brighton and Three Bridges so that the departing train into Victoria is not delayed