Class 350 on WCML between Preston and Carlisle

[EltonRoad]

I saw London Midland 350 252 on the WCML today around Oxenholme, I heard First TPE are using it for driving training, is that correct?

 

[387star]

surprised there are NO pictures of a fleet of trains set to enter service in december or am I missing something

Will they be painted in TPE colours?

 

[ATW Alex 101]

I assume so

 

[ainsworth74]

surprised there are NO pictures of a fleet of trains set to enter service in december or am I missing something

TPE have posted pictures of them in Germany being built and I believe they're due to be heading over here in the near future at which point I'm sure they'll be more pictures.

 

[Eagle]

They've posted pictures of the first of the completed units being tested on the track at Wildenrath (that was in August; I suspect more progress has been made since). Still seem to be in a basecoat grey livery, so I assume that the TPE livery will be vinyled on at a later stage.

Problem is that they only seem to put their photos on Google Plus, which no one uses so no one's seen the photos

 

[387star]

Be interesting if TPE use the dynamic lines vinyl or the newer version which is predominantly dark blue paint

The seat upholstery has also changed since the original builds as well as there being no green in the interior

 

[ainsworth74]

Problem is that they only seem to put their photos on Google Plus, which no one uses so no one's seen the photos

They do and I really think that's why they've not got more coverage!

 

[swt_passenger]

surprised there are NO pictures of a fleet of trains set to enter service in december or am I missing something

Will they be painted in TPE colours?

You asked this on 25th of September.

Why should anything have changed from the reasonable answer you got then?

 

[CJ]

Be interesting if TPE use the dynamic lines vinyl or the newer version which is predominantly dark blue paint

The seat upholstery has also changed since the original builds as well as there being no green in the interior

I imagine they'd use the current livery (as the image ATWalex101 posted was from their 'introducing new trains...' video TPE posted not too long ago) and it would go with the rest of fleet that's used in TPE.

Wouldn't be surprised if they did use the 'new' livery though.

 

[Class 92]

I assume so

I think the livery suits and fits well on the 350 looks good in purple! :roll:

 

[Beveridges]

Shame they sound more like a flying saucer when they power off from a platform than the rather pleasant sound generated by the 185 engines!

 

[DXMachina]

Shame they sound more like a flying saucer when they power off from a platform than the rather pleasant sound generated by the 185 engines!

I'd rather stand downwind of 2000hp of traction motors than 2250hp of turbo-diesels though

 

[notadriver]

I'd rather stand downwind of 2000hp of traction motors than 2250hp of turbo-diesels though

On paper that makes a 185 more powerful. But I think the 350s have 4 traction motors of 250kW on each driving car giving a total of 2000 kW or nearly 2700 hp or a very nice power to weight ratio of 15.4 hp/ton based on a weight of 175 tons.

For comparison a 9 car Pendolino has 5100 kW (6840 hp) and this gives a power to weight ratio of 14.6 hp /ton based on a weight of 466 tons.

 

[D365]

I think the livery suits and fits well on the 350 looks good in purple! :roll:

Had First retained GE/GA this is what the 360s might have ended up looking like.

They do and I really think that's why they've not got more coverage!

G+ hasn't done as well as Google would have liked, has it?

 

[TheGrew]

On paper that makes a 185 more powerful. But I think the 350s have 4 traction motors of 250kW on each driving car giving a total of 2000 kW or nearly 2700 hp or a very nice power to weight ratio of 15.4 hp/ton based on a weight of 175 tons.

For comparison a 9 car Pendolino has 5100 kW (6840 hp) and this gives a power to weight ratio of 14.6 hp /ton based on a weight of 466 tons.

I would expect the 350s to have a better power to weight ratio even if they were theoretically less powerful simply because they aren't shipping round a load of fuel. I imagine the 185s transmission would probably be less efficient as well.

 

[IanXC]

surprised there are NO pictures of a fleet of trains set to enter service in december or am I missing something

The other consideration is that they will gradually enter service, rather than all 10 being available from December.

 

[jopsuk]

there should be very little to do between delivery to the UK and entry to service- all the running is being done on the test track whilst the drivers should all have been trained using the borrowed unit. It's a proven in service design, they've done all the clearance, sighting etc work using an LM unit, so really it is hardly surprising that there's no pictures

 

[northwichcat]

The other consideration is that they will gradually enter service, rather than all 10 being available from December.

Yep I think the ORR have said that a couple of services must be class 350 operated from December in the approval of the track access application (or be truncated) but the rest can be either 185 or 350. The morning peak southbound services and evening peak northbound services will remain via Bolton until May 2014 so they will definitely be 185s.

What's perhaps surprising is a 100mph 350/2 has been loaned and TPE are saying the new trains will be 100mph, when the 350/4s could be capable of running at 110mph.

 

[Nym]

Proberbly because they'll be timetabled as 100mph initially so that it can take a 185 if required? (And TPE are a bit thick)

 

[The Planner]

there should be very little to do between delivery to the UK and entry to service- all the running is being done on the test track whilst the drivers should all have been trained using the borrowed unit. It's a proven in service design, they've done all the clearance, sighting etc work using an LM unit, so really it is hardly surprising that there's no pictures

I presume that is the fault free mileage accumulation then? They aren't strictly cleared north of Preston yet.

 

[DXMachina]

On paper that makes a 185 more powerful. But I think the 350s have 4 traction motors of 250kW on each driving car giving a total of 2000 kW or nearly 2700 hp

I did get that wrong - but as anyone who's ever tried to race a naturally aspirated GTi against a medium turbo-diesel will testify, its torque not horsepower that counts. I'd expect a 4-car 350 with less horsepower than a 3-car 185 to be considerably faster anyway just due to the superior starting power of electric motors.

 

[Bevan Price]

I did get that wrong - but as anyone who's ever tried to race a naturally aspirated GTi against a medium turbo-diesel will testify, its torque not horsepower that counts. I'd expect a 4-car 350 with less horsepower than a 3-car 185 to be considerably faster anyway just due to the superior starting power of electric motors.

Plus, electric trains are usually shown as the continuous power rating, which they can safety exceed for short periods, whereas diesel trains are normally unable to exceed their booked power output by very much.

 

[notadriver]

Now this is interesting. Whilst that is true of older multiple units with DC traction motors, I'm not sure if AC motored units have that characteristic. What they do have is the ability to maintain full power at higher speeds where a DC motored unit would tail off.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yep I think the ORR have said that a couple of services must be class 350 operated from December in the approval of the track access application (or be truncated) but the rest can be either 185 or 350. The morning peak southbound services and evening peak northbound services will remain via Bolton until May 2014 so they will definitely be 185s.

What's perhaps surprising is a 100mph 350/2 has been loaned and TPE are saying the new trains will be 100mph, when the 350/4s could be capable of running at 110mph.

Interesting. But still the question remains what happens when they move to Wigan permanently?

 

[WatcherZero]

Answers in their FAQ
http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/campaigns/new-trains/faqs/

How quick will the new trains be?
The new trains will be able to travel at speeds up to 100mph where the track and line permit. As such journey times are expected to be at least 3 minutes quicker between Manchester and Scotland and intermediate stations. The trains have a faster acceleration to 100mph than the current class 185s. We are working with Siemens and Network Rail to enable the trains to operate at 110mph in the future. We hope to achieve this by May 2014

I also approve this question!

Is ten trains enough – it is really busy – why can’t you buy more?
Train travel is more popular than ever before and certain trains are very busy at peak times. The provision of ten new trains will definitely help to improve capacity. There will be 80% more capacity on the Manchester to Scotland route and an overall increase of 30% across the whole of the FTPE network. We hope that our fleet can be expanded further to cope with increasing demand. There will be opportunities to do this created by the electrification of other parts of our network over the next few years

Has the high speed pantograph design for the 350 to allow it to operate mulitple pantographs at 110mph without excessive oscillation been completed yet? Is that the reason for the delay in approving higher speed as TPE will be operating them in pairs at weekends?

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

There's been one in Preston for a few weeks, is it this 350?

 

[Boothby97]

There's been one in Preston for a few weeks, is it this 350?

That is 350252

 

[Class377/5]

Right few answers to the questions posed on here.

The units are to be delivered in all over grey as when the deal was signed the TPE franchise would have ended shortly after delivery so money was saved by not painting them.

However as TPE have had their franchise extended, they are now going to livery the units between delivery and in service as long as it does not delay units entering passenger service. tender for this went out in spring I believe.

The 350/4 were never really expected to all be delivered by Dec 13 as they were ordered too late. Rail did report that 3 units may now be in service by end of the year.

The 350/4 are 100mph units currently as they don't currently have the paper work to run at 110mph yet they are geared to do so.

The reason for this is LM is conducting the trials and they decided to skip the 8 car permission and go straight for 12 car clearance (which includes 8 car trains anyway). However this has been delayed as NR had concerns at three pans evenly spaced. Reported that the trials have been successful its just paperwork not cleared yet.

TPE decided not to put the 350s in service at 110mph as they are going to diagram multiple units early on (so you'll have 4, 6 & 8 car Scotland services at weekends) but wait for LM to gain clearance first.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Right few answers to the questions posed on here.

The units are to be delivered in all over grey as when the deal was signed the TPE franchise would have ended shortly after delivery so money was saved by not painting them.

However as TPE have had their franchise extended, they are now going to livery the units between delivery and in service as long as it does not delay units entering passenger service. tender for this went out in spring I believe.

The 350/4 were never really expected to all be delivered by Dec 13 as they were ordered too late. Rail did report that 3 units may now be in service by end of the year.

The 350/4 are 100mph units currently as they don't currently have the paper work to run at 110mph yet they are geared to do so.

The reason for this is LM is conducting the trials and they decided to skip the 8 car permission and go straight for 12 car clearance (which includes 8 car trains anyway). However this has been delayed as NR had concerns at three pans evenly spaced. Reported that the trials have been successful its just paperwork not cleared yet.

TPE decided not to put the 350s in service at 110mph as they are going to diagram multiple units early on (so you'll have 4, 6 & 8 car Scotland services at weekends) but wait for LM to gain clearance first.

The LM 12-car paperwork was signed off last week.

The first 350/3 will be delivered to LM next April.

 

[northwichcat]

The units are to be delivered in all over grey as when the deal was signed the TPE franchise would have ended shortly after delivery so money was saved by not painting them.

AFAIK the TPE franchise end date has officially been March 2015 since mid-2011. Although, there was a clause inserted saying the franchise could be terminated early in April 2014, although TPE have been working on the May 2014 changes for some time. The franchise extension until Feb 2016 hasn't been signed off so there could still be an interim franchise between March 2015 and Feb 2016.

I imagine they'll do like they did with the 158s they originally had and give them a blue skirt vinyl to brand the trains as First TransPennine Express units.