Example of prosecutions (from local media, Cornwall)

[richw]

Just looking through the website of my local paper. Came across this article which could provide an example of the fine that could be imposed by a court for fare dodging.

Passenger B was convicted in his absence at Truro Magistrates' Court on September 20 of failing to pay a fare on the railway at St Austell on March 16, and was fined £400 and told to pay compensation of £5.10

Read more: http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Fare-dodger-fined/story-19874214-detail/story.html#ixzz2gsYAvldG
Follow us: @thisiscornwall on Twitter | thisiscornwall on Facebook

£400 for the sake of saving a fiver. 78 times the original fare.

Another example same site.

Passenger S was convicted in his absence by Truro magistrates on September 20 of failing to pay a railway fare at Truro on May 13, fined £500 and told to pay compensation of £5.50

Read more: http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Fare-dodger/story-19874216-detail/story.html#ixzz2gsZQkchU
Follow us: @thisiscornwall on Twitter | thisiscornwall on Facebook

Looks like FGW had a little crack down!

 

[Sleepy]

Very good - hope we see more of it in new franchise !

 

[richw]

Very good - hope we see more of it in new franchise !

Me too, and I think publishing it in the "crime" section is a good deterrent to others to see such big fines, and also like they've made clear the amount of the fare that was dodged

 

[RPI]

Just looking through the website of my local paper. Came across this article which could provide an example of the fine that could be imposed by a court for fare dodging.


£400 for the sake of saving a fiver. 78 times the original fare.

Another example same site.

Looks like FGW had a little crack down!

Not a crack down, the two boys in Cornwall do a hell of a lot of MG11's day in day out, it's just that a) a lot get settled out of court and b) they don't always get published! Nice to see the Magistrates giving out some decent fines!

 

[bnm]

Not a crack down, the two boys in Cornwall do a hell of a lot of MG11's day in day out, it's just that a) a lot get settled out of court and b) they don't always get published! Nice to see the Magistrates giving out some decent fines!

Just 2 RPIs? Are there more between Exeter and /Paignton/Plymouth? I only ever see the lad with blond spiky hair and have also seen him working HST services between Reading and Bristol.

Will FGW start taking a more robust approach to fare evasion over the next two years now that they no longer have the DfT picking up 80% of any revenue shortfall?

Anecdotally, fare evasion appears rife across FGW and there appears to be too few RPIs. Will we get some more in the coming months?

 

[richw]

Not a crack down, the two boys in Cornwall do a hell of a lot of MG11's day in day out, it's just that a) a lot get settled out of court and b) they don't always get published! Nice to see the Magistrates giving out some decent fines!

I've never come across revenue protection down here, hence why I believed it was a crack down, guessing as only 2 of them the odds of bumping into them are pretty slim. I see it as a good thing publishing the fines, as surely will act as a deterrent.

 

[CC 72100]

Just 2 RPIs? Are there more between Exeter and /Paignton/Plymouth?

That was my thought.... Cornish main line with long trains and frequent stops to cover, let alone all the branches. No wonder fare evasion is so rife with numbers so thin on the ground.

 

[LateThanNever]

That was my thought.... Cornish main line with long trains and frequent stops to cover, let alone all the branches. No wonder fare evasion is so rife with numbers so thin on the ground.

Absolutely agree but those prosecuted must be hardcore - it must otherwise be difficult to prove evasion when you pay on the train!

 

[Yew]

Good, As long as they where 'real' fare evaders, and not people who fell victim to our complex and often counterintuitive railway regulations

 

[RPI]

We have 4 RPI'S and about 7 ATE'S at EXD, 2 RPI'S and one ATE at PLY, 1 RPI at Truro and 1 RPI and 1 ATE at PNZ, all only cover west of TAU. The blonde lad referred to is now in the West but was in the Central area before. The Exeter boys generally cover the "Metro" around Exeter plus exd-tau and the Plymouth people generally cover HSS services in Devon.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

In February 2012 i traveled from Penzance to St Austell. (FGW operate PFs)
On the 2 coach DMU there were 2 conductors. They were very friendly, and sold tickets to whoever boarded the train. (Few unmanned stations)
At Truro (Barriered station) a new conductor appeared. I guessed there was a sting ahead!
When we left Truro he slowly walked, making eye contact, up the train saying any more tickets?
At St Austell, the RPI's etc were in force, with BTP.
They had several in their 'net'. Most looked like they could well afford the £5 fare! Expensive clothes etc.
I must say how polite they all were checking tickets. Smile and thank you etc. Very professional operation.
At that point I don't think the ones without tickets realized what a serious offense they had committed.

 

[Deerfold]

In February 2012 i traveled from Penzance to St Austell. (FGW operate PFs)
On the 2 coach DMU there were 2 conductors. They were very friendly, and sold tickets to whoever boarded the train. (Few unmanned stations)
At Truro (Barriered station) a new conductor appeared. I guessed there was a sting ahead!
When we left Truro he slowly walked, making eye contact, up the train saying any more tickets?
At St Austell, the RPI's etc were in force, with BTP.
They had several in their 'net'. Most looked like they could well afford the £5 fare! Expensive clothes etc.
I must say how polite they all were checking tickets. Smile and thank you etc. Very professional operation.
At that point I don't think the ones without tickets realized what a serious offense they had committed.

Seems very sound too - no one can realistically argue they didn't have a chance to buy a ticket.

 

[Flamingo]

We'll occasionally get pager messages telling us that a sting is in operation at X, give every opportunity to buy.

 

[Be3G]

You know, that sounds like the perfect system to me (aside from the fact it requires twice the number of staff). Precede every RPI with someone who just sells tickets to whomever wants one, making sure that everyone is made aware of his (the ticket-seller's) presence. That way, nearly anyone who had a genuine reason to not buy a ticket before boarding gets to buy their intended ticket without judgement, and it becomes a whole lot clearer for the RPI a few minutes behind to deduce who was trying to deliberately evade their fare.

 

[sheff1]

You know, that sounds like the perfect system to me ...

Agree it sounds like a good system, certainly better than Northern's.

In the OP, I notice that both were convicted in their absence. How difficult is it actually get the fines from such people ? I have the thought that they might just 'disappear'.

 

[jon0844]

Very good - hope we see more of it in new franchise !

One reason why it's important for TOCs to not always seek a nice easy out of court settlement, as this is when (hopefully) you can begin to deter people from trying in the first place.

 

[Clip]

One reason why it's important for TOCs to not always seek a nice easy out of court settlement, as this is when (hopefully) you can begin to deter people from trying in the first place.

I agree with this. The easy buck is the out of court settlement but that will dop nothing to deter people.

Other TOCs should do this sort of thing in the media too

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if they should even Tweet the latest hall-of-shame every now and then?

Making sure to point out that these people are getting a free ride at the expense of the passengers, of course.

I'm sure a few people would write back along the lines of 'well if you didn't charge so much' and 'if you ran your trains on time people might pay' and other nonsensical arguments - but that would only serve to show how many people seem to think it's okay not to pay... and all of them would have to start considering if they might one day feature on the next list.

 

[34D]

Agree it sounds like a good system, certainly better than Northern's.

In the OP, I notice that both were convicted in their absence. How difficult is it actually get the fines from such people ? I have the thought that they might just 'disappear'.

It is done by the police in conjunction with mags court staff. A warrant Will be put out for their arrest

 

[jon0844]

But not actively enforced it seems, especially when people move around from address to address (and their mates/family deny any knowledge of where they are).

 

[34D]

But not actively enforced it seems, especially when people move around from address to address (and their mates/family deny any knowledge of where they are).

Not at all. I had a matter of my own a few years ago (non railway). Police visited my home

 

[richw]

But not actively enforced it seems, especially when people move around from address to address (and their mates/family deny any knowledge of where they are).

a warrant is valid for several years, normally with an arrest on sight clause, and often stipulate no bail if they've no showed to court. I can't remember how many years the warant is valid for, but I'd imagine it difficult to stay hiding for long enough.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

It is done by the police in conjunction with mags court staff. A warrant Will be put out for their arrest

With a dismal success rate.

Even if the non-paying Offender can be traced, and does re-attend Court to explain themselves, and the case officer can obtain statements, and the Bench determines an Order, it doesn't take much for the Offender to default, and after a few more of these, the process will repeat and perhaps the next time the offender will be given a custodial Sentence. After that, all payment orders are cancelled.

Not at all. I had a matter of my own a few years ago (non railway). Police visited my home

No doubt, but please don't assume that all cases are maanged in the same way as this one.

 

[richw]

I wonder if they should even Tweet the latest hall-of-shame every now and then?

Making sure to point out that these people are getting a free ride at the expense of the passengers, of course.

I'm sure a few people would write back along the lines of 'well if you didn't charge so much' and 'if you ran your trains on time people might pay' and other nonsensical arguments - but that would only serve to show how many people seem to think it's okay not to pay... and all of them would have to start considering if they might one day feature on the next list.

rail travel is very cheap in Cornwall, so down here at least I don't think that could be an excuse. A journey I often make, Redruth to Truro is £4 (less my railcard discount if applicable) for a peak return, a journey of 10 miles, each way I can't cover my petrol and park in Truro that cheaply, do I deem the fare to be cheap, as its cheaper than alternative travel options

 

[bnm]

A warrant will stay active on the PNC until it is enforced.

Sooner or later the long arm of the law will catch up with you.

Take it from someone who knows. 4 years after an alleged offence, saw me arrested after a routine stop and taken to the force area where the alleged offence was committed. Initially booked in with no bail, but released without charge following interview. I did have some 'history', but for this particular offence I was entirely innocent.

Arrest, custody, interview. All par for the course. What was really annoying though was being released at 4am, in shorts and t-shirt, and with no money, 80 miles from home. Took some serious negotiation between my solicitor and the duty Inspector to get me back home.

Should finally add, I'm a good boy now. RoOA time-served, and an occasional volunteer and mentor helping young offenders.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But not actively enforced it seems, especially when people move around from address to address (and their mates/family deny any knowledge of where they are).

Depends on the coppers and how busy they are. Certainly in Cumbria they're hot on arresting people for non payment of fines, and they normally try to do it at 12 noon on a Saturday too. The reason? The non-payer will be in custody until the next court session, 10am on a Monday.

 

[soil]

Just looking through the website of my local paper. Came across this article which could provide an example of the fine that could be imposed by a court for fare dodging.


£400 for the sake of saving a fiver. 78 times the original fare.

Another example same site.

Looks like FGW had a little crack down!

I would be surprised if these fines were not avoidable by taking action after getting caught.

Same thing with TV licence non-payment. You get people up before the courts all the time, but if you pay the bill immediately after being caught without a licence, they don't prosecute.

These are almost undoubtedly the result of stupid, lazy people not responding to letters and taking the opportunity to mitigate their losses, and getting hammered in court as a result.

 

[reb0118]

These are almost undoubtedly the result of stupid, lazy people not responding to letters and taking the opportunity to mitigate their losses, and getting hammered in court as a result.

All true, but we can add in the usual suspects who have nothing to lose in the first place. The type of people who have no declared income and who are already paying fines at £5 a week so their benefits can't be stopped any further. Jailing these people costs more than the original fines - so what is the answer?

My answer would be this: Many Scottish Islands once supported a much larger population (you can see where I'm going with this.....) but due to economic and other factors, not least the Highland Clearances, many are now uninhabited (not uninhabitable). Fine defaulters and other low level criminals should be sentenced to time on a Scottish Island. They would be given facilities to build their own homes and instructed on how to live of the land (& sea) and then basically left to it. Platoons of Redcoats would be stationed at strategic points on the mainland to ensure no escape was possible. A helicopter should fly over from time to time to check that the inmates had not resorted to cannibalism but apart from that no formal supervision would be required as a natural hierarchy would evolve. Inmates would be encouraged to stay on the Island after completion of their sentence.

There are probably a few flaws with the above proposal but it should work as long as the do-gooders and pinko-liberals don't find out.

 

[Flamingo]

By Redcoats, you mean the Butlins. Entertainment folks?

 

[jon0844]

There are probably a few flaws with the above proposal but it should work as long as the do-gooders and pinko-liberals don't find out.

Only a few minor ones, so nothing to worry about.