Latest atrocity in Iraq and Syria

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What sort of "martyr" drives a truck-load of explosives in the grounds of a primary school then causes it to explode ?

 

[Max]

Link please?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A news item heard on Radio 4. Not anything actually seen in print.

Is it forbidden to report anything heard on the radio on RailUK in case the BBC may be deliberately making deliberate mischief to upset its radio audiences ?

I can quote a notorious example of where making a quote from a banner headline in a newspaper was totally false. I refer you to the Manchester Evening News report of the Strangeways riot....20 DEAD

No such deaths occurred.

 

[455driver]

Here-
http://news.sky.com/story/1150915/iraq-children-killed-in-playground-bombing

A quick google search for @school explosion iraq' pulls up dozens of pictures.

I wont comment as I would be banned!

 

[Monty]

A news item heard on Radio 4. Not anything actually seen in print.

Is it forbidden to report anything heard on the radio on RailUK in case the BBC may be deliberately making deliberate mischief to upset its radio audiences ?

I can quote a notorious example of where making a quote from a banner headline in a newspaper was totally false. I refer you to the Manchester Evening News report of the Strangeways riot....20 DEAD

No such event occurred.

Well it is the BBC...

Speaking seriously though I'll reserve my comments as I really do dispair with that part of the world.

 

[Oswyntail]

What sort of "martyr" drives a truck-load of explosives in the grounds of a primary school then causes it to explode ?

A political martyr.:cry:

 

[yorkie]

Is it forbidden to report anything heard on the radio on RailUK in case the BBC may be deliberately making deliberate mischief to upset its radio audiences ?

No, but not everyone will have heard the news story on the radio, so we won't all know what the thread is discussing. So, in order to find out, we'd need to do our own search. For our blind members, and users of mobile devices and/or slow internet connections, that may be particularly tricky. Also if anyone views this thread in later years it may become impossible.

Hence we ask that a link, quote and appropriate comment are provided.

As you heard it on BBC Radio, I've had a look at the BBC News site, and found a link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24422436

And a quick copy & paste (Ctrl-C & Ctrl-V) and here's a quote (

button):

Iraq violence: Bomber hit primary school

A suicide bomber has attacked a primary school in northern Iraq, killing at least 12 children and their headteacher, police and medics say.

Another 90 people were injured in the attack near Tal Afar, some 420km (260 miles) north-west of the Iraqi capital Baghdad, the town's mayor said.

At least 12 people were killed as another suicide bomber hit pilgrims heading to a Shia shrine in Baghdad.

Iraq has seen a sharp rise in sectarian violence in recent months.

More than 50 people were killed on Saturday alone in Baghdad's Adhamiya district as pilgrims walked to a Shia shrine.

Almost 1,000 people were killed in Iraq during the past month alone, the UN has said, amid fears of a return to the sectarian conflict that peaked in 2008.

If it's not possible to provide a link & quote for some reason please contact us and we will be happy to assist

Back to the question though, I have no idea what sort of answer to give, because it's something so evil that we can't really begin to imagine or describe it. I don't agree with the term "martyr" and clearly anyone committing such acts isn't one anyway.

 

[asylumxl]

The majority of bombings in Iraq are performed by foreign nationals, in an attempt to create sectarian violence between the different religious sects and racial groups. Unfortunately it usually succeeds.

Al-Nusra, which is essentially Al-Qaeda by another name, has been sending people in to Iraq for years with support from extremist communities in Syria. Ironically, these same communities are now screaming bloody murder when the same people have started attacking them.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The term "martyr" is one applied by Islamic jihadists to those act as suicide bombers and actually die in the act.

I take heed of the forum link requirements for news events but if you saw the example that I quoted from the Manchester Evening News...20 DEAD...during the Strangeways prison riots, you will note that not all press links are correct. Perhaps I was so sickened by this news of the school playground atrocity in Iraq that my adherence to the forum requirements was somewhat subjugated. IT WILL NOT OCCUR AGAIN.

The Muslim recent current ignition of the eons-old Sunni v Shia battle is a matter that the blinkered American politicians and military have chosen to ignore in their hoped-for "democratisation" of Muslim areas of the world which is anathema to the Islamic theocrats and leads to events as the one that I heard on Radio 4. Events such as the one I have drawn attention to are examples ones that confirm the hatred of all things Western even to the slaying of their own young brethren at an agricultural college at midnight whilst they slept, as recently occurred in the Muslim majority area of Northern Nigeria by the Boko Haram jihadist group. I shall not post details of this event as it was well reported in the media at the time.

 

[SS4]

One who has been indoctrinated to think a certain way from birth and that their reward awaits them in the afterlife, conveniently intangible and incommunicado from the current one.

 

[Oswyntail]

The term "martyr" is one applied by ..... jihadists to those act as suicide bombers and actually die in the act.....

The ...... recent current ignition of the eons-old Sunni v Shia battle is a matter that the blinkered American politicians and military have chosen to ignore in their hoped-for "democratisation" of ..... areas of the world which is anathema to the ..... theocrats and leads to events as the one that I heard on Radio 4. ....

You could have written that, and made it more factual, by omitting any reference to Islam or Muslims. True Islam does not sanction violence, and the idea of a suicide bomber getting blessings in the afterlife is generally laughed at.
The conflict is almost purely tribal/racial and hence political rather than religious. Your "Theocrats" are politicians who have perverted traditional loyalties to get their own power, in the same way as Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Blair () etc. They simply use the imagery of Islam, and the power of the Imams.

One who has been indoctrinated to think a certain way from birth and that their reward awaits them in the afterlife, conveniently intangible and incommunicado from the current one.

I am sure that there must be at least one or two of those. Of course, Islam also indoctrinates the vast majority from birth that the reward that awaits killers is eternal damnation and torment.
It is not Islam (or religion per se) that is causing this violence. It is power-mad psychopaths, and it only gets in the way of addressing the problem if we ignore that fact.

 

[kylemore]

What sort of "martyr" drives a truck-load of explosives in the grounds of a primary school then causes it to explode ?

A "kid-on" one or a programmed one maybe?

In the Strategy of Tension even schoolkids are expendable.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The idea of a suicide bomber getting blessings in the afterlife is generally laughed at.

If you will care to note, it was not I who referred to what may occur in the afterlife. All I did was to clarify the term "martyrs" as those who die in the enactments of certain events prior to and leading to their death.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The conflict is almost purely tribal/racial and hence political rather than religious.

Much as I normally admire your postings for the thought that you put into them, I regret to say that your comment above is far too simplistic in its explanation of the deep division that has ensued for nearly 1,500 years between the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam.

One interesting matter, that currently affects the situation in Syria, is the Alawite sect of whom Assad is a member. Those particular Muslims are viewed as heretics by certain Islamic factions.

 

[SS4]

I am sure that there must be at least one or two of those. Of course, Islam also indoctrinates the vast majority from birth that the reward that awaits killers is eternal damnation and torment.
It is not Islam (or religion per se) that is causing this violence. It is power-mad psychopaths, and it only gets in the way of addressing the problem if we ignore that fact.

Indeed, whilst I admit I had religion in mind when writing it, it's merely a subset of trying to get more power. Unfortunately these power-mad psychopaths use religion to further their means perhaps because it's prone to misquoting and I also believe it's because little overt criticism of religion is allowed.

I can't help but think that part of the world would be a more peaceful place if there were no religion

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I can't help but think that part of the world would be a more peaceful place if there were no religion

This posting immediately brought the song "Imagine" by John Lennon to mind, that had your point as one of its verse lines.

 

[Oswyntail]

...
Much as I normally admire your postings for the thought that you put into them, I regret to say that your comment above is far too simplistic in its explanation of the deep division that has ensued for nearly 1,500 years between the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam....

Why, thank you!
I know too little about the detail of Shia/Sunni. However, I have a gut feeling that the main cause of the stresses in the area goes back a lot further than Islam, and is rooted in the geography of the area. Vast areas of semi-desert, interspersed with the river areas of lush fertitility, coupled with the intersections of trade routes make for almost certain conflict. Go back beyond Parthia, Macedonia and Persia (each of which were remarkable in their different approaches to population management), and you find the Hittites with exactly the same problems.
In the final analysis, one can do little better than read Gulliver's Travels, and the history of the BigvLittle endians.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I know too little about the detail of Shia/Sunni. However, I have a gut feeling that the main cause of the stresses in the area goes back a lot further than Islam, and is rooted in the geography of the area. Vast areas of semi-desert, interspersed with the river areas of lush fertitility, coupled with the intersections of trade routes make for almost certain conflict. Go back beyond Parthia, Macedonia and Persia (each of which were remarkable in their different approaches to population management), and you find the Hittites with exactly the same problems.

I note that you have chosen the ancient civilisations of the region in your quote that I studied in depth as ancillary personal private study to the Mathematics degree I studied at Manchester University up to 1966, where I was fortunate to have the antiquities professorial staff to help with my queries. I note that you made no mention of the Scythian empire. I suppose that being a Classics scholar at grammar school, taking both Greek and Latin for six years, grounded me in that interest.

However, the Islamic expansion into the Indian sub-continent and areas to the north-east of this and then onwards into the area that is now generically termed Indonesia, as a result of their traders, brings a different geographical dimension to the well-known areas shown in your posting then ranging from high mountainous areas to rain-forest areas.

Howsoever, we must only look back over the last 1400 years and I most earnestly ask you to read of the immediate post-Mohammedan time, as this was when the division in the beliefs and of the historical beings who are now revered by both the Sunni and Shia sects. Regretfully, for many years in many areas, it has been their pilgrims of either sect who have been targeted by opposing sect members when making their way to the sacred sites applicable to them at particular feast days.

 

[Johnuk123]

http://news.sky.com/story/1151071/taliban-vows-new-malala-murder-attempt

Pakistani schoolgirl Malala Yousafzai was shot last year by the Taliban for campaigning for defying a ban on female education - and now the group is threatening to kill her again.

As this girl now lives here she will surely have to live a somewhat Salman Rushdie like existence as Britain had an estimated 144,000 Muslims who are "hardcore Islamists" according to this poll 4 years ago which can only be more now.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06

NOP Research survey reports, "hardcore Islamists" constitute nine percent of the British Muslim population.

 

[Oswyntail]

...when making their way to the sacred sites applicable to them at particular feast days.

And this week sees the time of the Hajj

 

[DynamicSpirit]

What sort of "martyr" drives a truck-load of explosives in the grounds of a primary school then causes it to explode ?

It is extremely sad, and obviously devastating for the people affected by this kind of attack, and their families.

There are unfortunately a lot of people in the world who see nothing wrong with deliberately doing things that destroy other people's lives.

I think perhaps the best response we can have is to let awful incidents like this - where there's obviously little that we can do to directly help - serve as a reminder of the need to try to do good rather than harm. To try to make sure that everything we do in our lives makes the world a better place, rather than the reverse.

 

[Butts]

Indeed, whilst I admit I had religion in mind when writing it, it's merely a subset of trying to get more power. Unfortunately these power-mad psychopaths use religion to further their means perhaps because it's prone to misquoting and I also believe it's because little overt criticism of religion is allowed.

I can't help but think that part of the world would be a more peaceful place if there were no religion

I wonder if the advance of secular states will eventually encompass the muslim world as it has the christian one, and lead to less fervent belief coupled with hopefully less violence.

ps I'm suprised you have reprised "Sweep" after the ribbing you got last time

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder if the advance of secular states will eventually encompass the Muslim world as it has the Christian one, and lead to less fervent belief coupled with hopefully less violence.

Before the first Gulf War, Iraq was reasonably secular and Syria was also a secular country. Both of these two Muslim states will now have the threat of Salafist ideology hanging over them. Egypt now finds itself in the mire of the after-effects of the rule of the Muslim Brotherhood and matters that have since occurred since the intervention of the armed forces.

The mind-set of the Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan hard-line Islamists is a constant reminder to all of us that democracy is totally rejected by those who see Islam as the sole true religion.

Let us all hope that Turkey never falls victim to such ideology, after the efforts of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk in the 1923/4 period to establish Turkey as a secular state.

 

[talltim]

A point that was brought up earlier in the thread, and many times by many people over the years, after each atrocity.
People say that the extremists (at present normally Muslim, but any religion) do not represent the true meaning of the religion. However, as the faith is in your head, is anyone particular version of it more 'correct' than another?
The suicide bomber is no more or less Muslim than the gentle help-everyone local businessman, the Rev Fred Phelps is no more or less Christian than the old lady who does the flowers at church, a Tibetan monk who live his life in study is no more or less Buddhist than those Buddhists in Myanmar who killed a 94 year Muslim lady.
How can any one group claim to be the 'true' version of a religion and claim that other's versions aren't?

 

[Oswyntail]

....The mind-set of the Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan hard-line Islamists is a constant reminder to all of us that democracy is totally rejected by those who see Islam as the sole true religion......

I think that is an exaggeration. True, the groups such as the Taleban, who are using Islam as the flag under which they attempt to gain power, have no wish for democracy. But there are many millions more of Muslims who embrace democracy.
In a substantial number of countries where Islam is the predominant religion, democracy is not the traditional method of government. They occupy the full range from absolutist monarchy to benign oligarchy, and any combination within those spectrums. It could be argued that Islam thrives in those countries because it is more suited to undemocratic systems; it has also been argued that Islam demands such systems be maintained. Neither argument is actually true of Islam, but may be of particular leaders or cliques. One could, however, find states dominated by other religions, or by secularism, where exactly the same is true.
Another question that is often hedged about is whether "democracy" is actually a universal good. In cultures where it is not indigenous (say China) is there any right to try to foster it? Are not the proponents of democracy as wrong in insisting that it be the system of government of choice in such countries as are those who use violence to try to spread their own views, religious or not?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...How can any one group claim to be the 'true' version of a religion and claim that other's versions aren't?

A good point. But, for example, if a religion's basic writing says "Thou shalt not kill", then an interpreter who then tries to justify killing in the name of that religion is not as near to it's spirit as he might be.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think that is an exaggeration. True, the groups such as the Taleban, who are using Islam as the flag under which they attempt to gain power, have no wish for democracy. But there are many millions more of Muslims who embrace democracy.

Let us therefore then move to both sides of the African continent and examine the Salafist beliefs of both the Boko Haram and the Al Shabaab movements. Do you honestly believe that either of these two movements would care one jot for the Muslims in those territories who wanted to follow the peaceful path of democracy ?

To use your example of the Taleban, how did you think that life was like for the people in Afghanistan when they were in power ?