Ticket barriers to be unused at Kings Cross

[swt_passenger]

Well, barriers can't be replacing staff, as every barrier needs at least two people to work them (they are not allowed be on their own).

There's a number of SWT barrier lines I see regularly that have only have one member of staff in attendance. They aren't the only staffer on the station, but the only one near the barrier.

So that 'two man rule' may be only an FGW requirement.

 

[tbtc]

Perhaps there is a belated realisation that the McNulty report was a waste of time?

I think that McNulty was unfairly criticised by most enthusiasts.

We all complain about the stupidly high costs of the railway, and the fact that it seemingly needs more and more subdisy despite the huge growth in passenger numbers, yet everyone complains about the one report that sought to tackle some of those costs.

You'd think it was Serpell Two, by some of the reaction to it...

My personal view of ticket barriers, backed up by several years experience, is that they are the single most effective tool in combating fare evasion and ticketless travel. This is echoed by every one of my colleagues who I have ever discussed it with.

But, the one thing I have learned working for the railway is that the people doing the job are the last to be asked. Management know best!

I'm happy to take my opinions from those at the coal face - if someone who deals with ticketless travel (and all of the other "antisocial" problems that this can encourage) says that barriers are the most effective tool then I can't argue.

 

[Flamingo]

There's a number of SWT barrier lines I see regularly that have only have one member of staff in attendance. They aren't the only staffer on the station, but the only one near the barrier.

So that 'two man rule' may be only an FGW requirement.

ATW as well, I believe, from talking to them.
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I'm happy to take my opinions from those at the coal face - if someone who deals with ticketless travel (and all of the other "antisocial" problems that this can encourage) says that barriers are the most effective tool then I can't argue.

Thank you.

Barriers are not effective unless backed up by on-board checks, but they make the on-board checks a lot easier by filtering out the "pay when challenged" brigade, and the knowledge they are arriving into a station where they will not be able to exit without a ticket concentrates minds wonderfully!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not all railway staff agree with ticket barriers as being the best thing for revenue protection. The RMT threatened to call the boys out in 2010 because of "loss of commission" due to the barriers. The TOC in question? EastCoast.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8703362.stm

It's odd that EC are saying this about the Kings Cross barriers though, given just how determined they were to crowbar the barriers in at Darlington, Durham, Newcastle and Grantham, none of which really had the circulation space for them. The ones at Newcastle are particularly bad; only one of the three gatelines is ever open, resulting in 5-10 minute queues to get out of the station in the morning peak or after a London arrival.

I think the main issue with the KGX gateline is reliability, especially their inability to read tickets properly. It's been on more than one occasion I've wanted to put my foot through the damn things when they've spat out my ticket as "not valid at this location" and I've had to queue with the other 350 people it's happened to to get out of the station.

 

[Flamingo]

Well, the RMT complaining about "loss of commission" is not rail staff saying barriers make revenue protection worse, quite the opposite in fact - barriers mean that passengers who would otherwise be buying on board (or walking out the other end without paying) are now being forced to buy tickets before boarding, meaning the on-train staff are not selling as many.

Selling tickets on-board distracts the guard from their primary role, and provides a major tirgger-point for conflict and confrontation with passengers and as lone workers our work pattern should be designed to minimise the risks to our safety.

 

[CockneySparrow]

My personal view of ticket barriers, backed up by several years experience, is that they are the single most effective tool in combating fare evasion and ticketless travel. This is echoed by every one of my colleagues who I have ever discussed it with.

But, the one thing I have learned working for the railway is that the people doing the job are the last to be asked. Management know best!

It doesn't combat fare evasion not as much as you think it does, yes it does at the point they are installed but they do push the problem of fare evasion elsewhere

 

[Flamingo]

It doesn't combat fare evasion not as much as you think it does, yes it does at the point they are installed but they do push the problem of fare evasion elsewhere

Nothing will be 100% effective, given how the trains and networks are set up, but barriers are a relatively simple and acceptable solution to the most basic "walk-in & walk-out" evasion.

 

[yorkie]

It's odd that EC are saying this about the Kings Cross barriers though, given just how determined they were to crowbar the barriers in at Darlington, Durham, Newcastle and Grantham, none of which really had the circulation space for them. The ones at Newcastle are particularly bad; only one of the three gatelines is ever open, resulting in 5-10 minute queues to get out of the station in the morning peak or after a London arrival.

Out of interest, whose idea do you think it was to install barriers at East Coast stations?

(It's only odd if you don't know the answer: the DfT, not the operator!)

 

[yorksrob]

I think that McNulty was unfairly criticised by most enthusiasts.

We all complain about the stupidly high costs of the railway, and the fact that it seemingly needs more and more subdisy despite the huge growth in passenger numbers, yet everyone complains about the one report that sought to tackle some of those costs.

The section concerning the Regional Railway was particularly ill conceived in my opinion.

 

[moogal]

I don't know who pays for manning the gates or how it's split (GC and HT wouldn't want to contribute and it seems EC isn't bothered - leaving just FCC to stump up) but it seems like a bit of a mess.

That's a good point - HT always used to advertise that you could buy tickets on the train (haven't used them in a while so don't know if that's still the case) - how would this work with barriers?

 

[swt_passenger]

They let you through if you ask - just like they do (and have done) for GC as well ever since the barriers went in.

It is a none issue.

 

[ryan125hst]

They let you through if you ask - just like they do (and have done) for GC as well ever since the barriers went in.

It is a none issue.

Doesn't that defeat the object of ticket barriers though? A fare dodger could just ask to be let through the barriers and they would be in!

 

[Urban Gateline]

Doesn't that defeat the object of ticket barriers though? A fare dodger could just ask to be let through the barriers and they would be in!

Indeed, but it could be that EC/FCC RPI's are sometimes looking out for the people doing this, it's easy to watch where the person claiming to want GC or HT goes to!

I think the whole thing is unfair on FCC, who end up losing a lot of revenue from lost fares, they barrier some of their platforms but if people can just get out on the EC side because it is always open that is indeed pointless!

Ideally FCC should work together with EC to staff all the Barriers consistently and share the cost or maybe FCC pay slightly more as they have a higher need for the Barriers!

Also I've never seen an EC RPI, do they even employ RPI's or are they from an agency? Whenever the EC Kings Cross barriers are in use then its only CSA's to be seen who can't sell tickets anyway! (Pointless as they will just let ticketless travellers go out to buy a ticket, which probably won't happen!)

 

[jon0844]

How long were they just accepting any ticket? As in literally anything? Not sure it was all the gates, but I recall they accepted anything through the readers for a bit.

 

[Deerfold]

How long were they just accepting any ticket? As in literally anything? Not sure it was all the gates, but I recall they accepted anything through the readers for a bit.

Certainly for several weeks.

 

[northwichcat]

One thing I experienced yesterday:

LM barriers at Bletchley - I inserted a Milton Keynes to Bletchley ticket and it was returned to me.

LM barriers at Milton Keynes - I inserted a Bletchley to Milton Keynes ticket and the barrier kept it.

Why do TOCs program their barriers to do different things? Some one who normally uses Bletchley station might be using Milton Keynes during disruption and then might assume the ticket barrier will return the ticket for a delay repay claim but it doesn't.

 

[pethadine82]

FCC to maintain a heavy RPI team and they tend to check tickets when they stand at the entrance of Peterborough regardless of TOC

Do East Coast use the FCC revenue team, as there has been a couple of times when 2 east coast trains have pulled in North and Southbound, and the guy leading the team has said not our trains and pax were let through.

 

[CockneySparrow]

FCC to maintain a heavy RPI team and they tend to check tickets when they stand at the entrance of Peterborough regardless of TOC

Do East Coast use the FCC revenue team, as there has been a couple of times when 2 east coast trains have pulled in North and Southbound, and the guy leading the team has said not our trains and pax were let through.

Bit of an odd one, but perhaps someone will answer it

If FCC give an individual a penalty fare at Peterborough for travel from say York and it went down the route of court action, where would FCC stand in that scenario as the alleged fare dodger hasn't committed the crime against FCC

Also would FCC benefit in any way shape or form if the alleged individual paid any penalty fare
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Perhaps a solution might be for DFT to have a RPI type of company/franchise that checks tickets on any/all operators trains

 

[yorkie]

The PF would be utterly invalid, hopefully a Court would see that, but it would be important to get proper legal representation.

FCC have a habit of wrongly taking people to Court, so I wouldn't say it's impossible, but unlikely to happen.
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Why do TOCs program their barriers to do different things?

I don't know, but I am used to EC who give tickets back, and I (and others) have had a telling off by rude FGW barrier staff who said it was obvious that tickets should not be put through the barrier if you may need to use the ticket for a delay compensation or expenses claim.:roll:

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know, but I am used to EC who give tickets back, and I (and others) have had a telling off by rude FGW barrier staff who said it was obvious that tickets should not be put through the barrier if you may need to use the ticket for a delay compensation or expenses claim.:roll:

While Northern claim tickets cannot be retained by the passenger for the purpose of an expenses claim and you need to ask for a receipt.

I personally think ticket barriers should do like some continental examples and print on the back of the ticket when you insert it and then return it to you. So, for instance print "EXIT MKC 07.10.13 09:42" and obviously program the machines to not print over what another ticket barrier has already printed.

 

[Deerfold]

King's Cross being annoying again this morning.

Passengers who headed to the right to exit were made to return and exit from the front of the station so increasing the distance for anyone heading for Thameslink.

This is the first time I've known there not to be any gates on the gateline to be set to exit.

 

[stut]

This morning was (hopefully) a one-off for crowd control, given the disruption.

 

[Deerfold]

This morning was (hopefully) a one-off for crowd control, given the disruption.

When I was there, I wasn't aware there had been any disruption - I arrived a little after 0930.

 

[stut]

When I was there, I wasn't aware there had been any disruption - I arrived a little after 0930.

Ah, you were lucky

There was a breakdown at Ally Pally followed by a signal fault at Hatfield. Half the rush hour stuff went down the Hertford Loop and was over 30 minutes late. There were several arrivals just gone 9, and it was pretty crowded...

 

[crispy1978]

I've been to Kings Cross a number of times, on various days of the week, at various times of the day, and think I've only on a couple of occasions been required to use my ticket to activate the gate.

I've always thought this quite strange for one of the largest stations in the country.....

 

[Deerfold]

Ah, you were lucky

There was a breakdown at Ally Pally followed by a signal fault at Hatfield. Half the rush hour stuff went down the Hertford Loop and was over 30 minutes late. There were several arrivals just gone 9, and it was pretty crowded...

Yes, I found out about it later - a work colleague got a train an hour earlier than usual which got him in 6 minutes later than usual. If I'd caught my normal train I'd have been 10 minutes later than I was as it was sent round the loop and we weren't.

Kings Cross wasn't particularly busy when I went through but they were definitely not letting anyone out on the West side..

 

[stut]

Hmm, barriers still like that this evening. Really hope this isn't a trend - it'll be tedious beyond belief to have to walk round from York Way to Pancras Rd to get back to platform 0 every day!

 

[Goatboy]

My personal view of ticket barriers, backed up by several years experience, is that they are the single most effective tool in combating fare evasion and ticketless travel. This is echoed by every one of my colleagues who I have ever discussed it with.

I'm genuinelly interested to know how a ticket barrier is more effective than a full on-train check on a long distance service?

You can operate a ticket barrier with a cheap single. You can't get past the gripper on a first-stop York express with that same single!

 

[Flamingo]

How many staff would be required to check every ticket on a train between stops? On a busy train with eight carriages (average 70-80 people in each), if I have no hold-ups I can check a full carriage in about 8-10 minutes, quicker if all season tickets, slower if weekend leisure travellers. On my line most stops are 15 minutes apart, a few 25. If I have to actually stop and sell tickets, that gets slower again. And don't forget, my primary role is NOT to check and sell tickets.

As I said in other posts, barriers will stop the large number of "pay when challenged" passengers, which will free my time up from selling tickets to them. On-train checks are necessary as well, but they are much more effective if passengers boarding have some sort of ticket in the first place, as when forced to, most people will buy the correct ticket.

I've often pointed out the ticket sales for Grangetown station in Cardiff, the closest unbarriered station to Cardiff Central. Ticket sales to and from Grangetown dropped by over 500k a year after ATW barriered the main stations in South Wales. Passengers still turn up at barriers in Cardiff asking for a ticket from Grangetown, they have very often come from another unbarriered station much further away (Stapleton Road in one case a week ago).

Nothing works on it's own, Revenue Protection is a complex task, and requires a multi-prong approach. Barriers are a simple and proven deterrent, but sometimes are a victim of their own success as after they are in operation for a while, word gets around, the majority of passengers buy tickets, fewer passengers purchase tickets at excess fares windows, and some bean-counter decides there is no need to employ barrier staff as they are not taking revenue.

Working any peak-time train from Paddington, and/or weekend train, if a barriered platform, pretty much everybody will have a ticket. If an unbarriered platform, I'll expect to sell anything up to a dozen, in the two or at most three STD class carriages I'll get done before Reading. When asked, they will invariably have a story about running for the train - some of them I will have clocked on-board 20 minutes before departure. Some of them will be violent when asked to buy a ticket.

Barriers are a big, big deterrent to ticketless travel, in my opinion the single biggest one. Checking tickets is the biggest cause of conflict and assaults to on-train staff (lone workers). Anything that reduces that risk to staff should be increased, not removed.

 

[AndyLandy]

I'm genuinelly interested to know how a ticket barrier is more effective than a full on-train check on a long distance service?

You can operate a ticket barrier with a cheap single. You can't get past the gripper on a first-stop York express with that same single!

I think the point is that you idealy need both.

If you board Flamingo's train without a ticket because the barriers are open, you can have the whole argument about running late/thought it was OK to buy on-board/whatever.

If you board Flamingo's train with a cheap single because the barriers are closed, the moment he reaches you and asks for your ticket, you're instantly in deep s**t. Either you lie "I haven't got one" at which point he asks "How'd you get through the barriers then, eh?" or you reveal your invalid ticket, at which point it's open-and-shut that you were trying to avoid paying the correct fare.