Why is British Rail Class 387 Dual Voltage?

[cslusarc]

In reading the TSGN ITT, it mentions a new class, British Rail Class 387. These are the the 116 carriages that were assumed to become Class 377/8. What I don't understand is why extra money is being spent to build Class 387 as Dual Voltage when already Dual Voltage Class 319s are being cascaded first? Why can't these Class 387s be built as AC only to allow the Class 317s to be cascaded north whilst retaining the existing Dual Voltage Class 319 where they belong on Dual Voltage routes?

 

[westcoaster]

Will they not eventually go on the southern Croydon- Milton Keynes service, enabling 8 car running.

 

[Manchester77]

So they can operate the Thameslink network allowing the 319s to come up North and then the 387s cascaded to either the Thames Valley or TPE following the introduction of the 700s
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Will they not eventually go on the southern Croydon- Milton Keynes service, enabling 8 car running.

Thought that was going to happen when Southern regain their 377/5s

 

[swt_passenger]

The 5 car running on the SN WLL service, along with some 8 car, is explained in the stakeholder briefing document as already happening by the time SN is absorbed into TSGN.

But that's prior to July 15, and so I think the 5 car services must be provided by part of the 377/7 order, and the 8s by doubling up existing 377/2s...

The 387s (assumed to formerly have been referred to as 377/8s) have always been stated by DfT as moving to routes elsewhere in the country following their short period on Thameslink, as pointed out in the previous post. They have never been intended for SN themselves, they are only acting as DfT's procurement agent.

 

[Eagle]

Maybe I was misreading the document, but I thought that 5-car WLL services referred to LO.

 

[swt_passenger]

Maybe I was misreading the document, but I thought that 5-car WLL services referred to LO.

Seems clear enough to me. Page 61 of the briefing:

4.147 The current Southern service via the West London line from East Croydon to Milton Keynes Central (where a range of connections can be made with West Coast main line services) will become part of the TSGN franchise from July 2015 and will continue throughout the franchise.
4.148 Southern will already have extended most trains to five carriages, and some to eight carriages before that time, as provided for in the Government’s rail investment strategy. To the south, bidders have the flexibility to extend services beyond Croydon to other destinations within the franchise area if they believe there is a case for doing so.

 

[D7666]

In reading the TSGN ITT, it mentions a new class, British Rail Class 387.

British Rail ????????????????????

I have not read the document.

Are you sure it says British Rail ?

Who be they ?



--
Nick

 

[WatcherZero]

The company that finally dissapeared today?

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/brb-residuary-ltd-has-been-abolished

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In reading the TSGN ITT, it mentions a new class, British Rail Class 387. These are the the 116 carriages that were assumed to become Class 377/8. What I don't understand is why extra money is being spent to build Class 387 as Dual Voltage when already Dual Voltage Class 319s are being cascaded first? Why can't these Class 387s be built as AC only to allow the Class 317s to be cascaded north whilst retaining the existing Dual Voltage Class 319 where they belong on Dual Voltage routes?

Because they need DC to work Thameslink/WLL services before they transfer north (or west).
Before long there will also be a high demand for dual-voltage EMUs to work on the stretches of Southern DC lines converted to AC (eg Reading-Southampton).

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

British Rail ????????????????????
I have not read the document.
Are you sure it says British Rail ?
Who be they ?

--
Nick

Wikipedia for some reason calls all the Classes "British Rail", both before and after privatisation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_387

British Rail Class 387

I suppose it means "British railways Class..." to distinguish them from any other country's classification.
Daft I call it.
"UK Rail Class xxx" might be more appropriate today.

 

[Eagle]

"UK Rail Class xxx" might be more appropriate today.

No it wouldn't because that would include Northern Ireland, which uses a different and incompatible classification system.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No it wouldn't because that would include Northern Ireland, which uses a different and incompatible classification system.

Well GB then. :-x
All this terminology will get even more difficult if Scotland goes independent...

 

[hwl]

Aren't TSGN taking over the current shared SE /TL services fairly early on in the franchise / management contract and hence TSGN have to provide extra dual voltage rolling stock very soon?


Dual voltage could be useful on Merseyside at some stage too if a bit more OHLE goes up.

 

[Eagle]

Aren't TSGN taking over the current shared SE /TL services fairly early on in the franchise / management contract and hence TSGN have to provide extra dual voltage rolling stock very soon?

They are taking over those services (at the first timetable change after the franchise starts), but being as they're already run with FCC stock then no new stock should be needed to run them.

 

[rebmcr]

All this terminology will get even more difficult if Scotland goes independent...

They'll still be on the island of Great Britain, thus still British regardless of whether they're part of the UK.

I think I remember reading the Wikipedia editors' discussion about this a while ago, this was deemed the best solution as there really isn't a name for it post-privatisation. Technically "British" + "Rail" isn't necessarily "British Rail" so it makes sense to just go with it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They'll still be on the island of Great Britain, thus still British regardless of whether they're part of the UK.

This is off-topic, sorry mods, but we are into semantics.
The geographic term British Isles includes GB, Ireland and all the smaller islands, so all that is technically "British".
However, the Irish don't use the term and I don't expect Scotland will either should the break happen, because of its association with London/Westminster.

For what it's worth, the term British is actually derived from the Celtic, and the Anglo-Saxons were the invaders.
The inhabitants of Brittany have a claim to be called British too (where the Britons/Bretons live).

 

[starrymarkb]

IIRC the use of "British Rail Class" isn't popular on Wikipedia but was adopted as a compromise as well as keeping it consistent pre and post privatisation. I guess "British Railways" (as in Railways of Britain) might be an option. "TOPS Class" was thought to be too obscure and BR wasn't the only user of TOPS

As for Dual Voltage, with most modern stock it's not a big issue to make them dual voltage. Most new EMUs are wired for both AC and DC operation, and in the case of the DC only Electrostars they carry ballast equivalent to a Transformer so if one is retro fitted the suspension doesn't have to be recalibrated.

IIRC if you buy a single voltage TRAXX locomotive from Bombardier you get a full Multisystem AC/DC locomotive with the extra pantographs removed and the extra voltages locked out in software.

 

[WatcherZero]

Indeed, I remember that discussion a few years back, there was an appeal for documentation evidence of what the classification system is called post privatisation and no one could find any reference to a name for the system, in post-privatisation internal documentation they just dropped the 'British Rail' and called them 'Class XXX' which was confusing as it clashed with already in use continental classes.

I suppose now that the pan-European TOPS system has been agreed you could put them in the longer number format but most trains will never carry the longer form numbers if they dont cross borders.

 

[starrymarkb]

Indeed "UIC Class 9270066" doesn't really have a good ring to it

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Why change the designation from 377/8 to 387 when the 377/6, which has as much in common with the earlier 377s, is still 377/6 and not, for example, 386?



PS I still use the designation "BR" in my personal notes because it's easier and clearer than using a multitude of TOC names...

 

[jopsuk]

I think it might be to do with the 110mph capability, despite the 350/1s not being renumbered... There's very rarely logic.

 

[G_A_C_C_C]

I thought the 377/6 and 377/7 aren't really 377s - they are 379s but with 377 software? maybe, as these are going to be a distinct set of units not linked to Southern in any way, that there's no need to pretend they are 377s any more.

 

[theblackwatch]

I'm not sure where the '377/8' designation which people keep referring to has come from, as it wasn't mentioned in the press releases back in July (see http://www.southernrailway.com/sout...rriages-for-thameslink-rolling-stock-cascade/ ). I suspect people just assumed they would be Class 377/8.

 

[Uzair]

What I don't understand is why the 377/7 are separate from the 377/6. The trains are exactly the same and the former was just an option order on top of the latter which was chosen to be taken up so why not class them as 377/6?

 

[swt_passenger]

Isn't the difference that the 377/7s are proper dual voltage, rather than just capable of conversion like the 377/6?

Likewise they wouldn't get 377/5 (like the last dual voltage batch), because they are 5 car rather than 4 car.

 

[thelem]

The new class could indicate that they'll be running the newer software, rather than the southern-compatible older version.

 

[Class377/5]

I'm not sure where the '377/8' designation which people keep referring to has come from, as it wasn't mentioned in the press releases back in July (see http://www.southernrailway.com/sout...rriages-for-thameslink-rolling-stock-cascade/ ). I suspect people just assumed they would be Class 377/8.

They've been referred to as /8 internally however its not been an official numbering. Especially as they are supposed to inter work with other 377s.

What I don't understand is why the 377/7 are separate from the 377/6. The trains are exactly the same and the former was just an option order on top of the latter which was chosen to be taken up so why not class them as 377/6?

Isn't the difference that the 377/7s are proper dual voltage, rather than just capable of conversion like the 377/6?

Likewise they wouldn't get 377/5 (like the last dual voltage batch), because they are 5 car rather than 4 car.

Yes, only difference is the /7 will have pans and use them.

The new class could indicate that they'll be running the newer software, rather than the southern-compatible older version.

I thought the 377/6 and 377/7 aren't really 377s - they are 379s but with 377 software? maybe, as these are going to be a distinct set of units not linked to Southern in any way, that there's no need to pretend they are 377s any more.

Which would make them actually pointless as they are to inter work with the 377/2 & /2 on Thameslink duties as having a third fleet that's incompatible when your about the bring on the 700s that would make diagramming a nightmare.

Don't forget there a single 377 database (or rather there was prior to the arrival of the 377/6s) that meant the FCC and Southern units were using a single database. Although there is a new version required for inter working with the 377/6s.

I think it might be to do with the 110mph capability, despite the 350/1s not being renumbered... There's very rarely logic.

That's a valid point actually.

 

[jopsuk]

What, the 110mph capability or the lack of logic in TOPS numbering in recent years?

 

[Chris125]

I think it might be to do with the 110mph capability, despite the 350/1s not being renumbered... There's very rarely logic.

Hasn't it been suggested the 350/2 fleet may also get rated for 110mph to maximise flexibility/simplicity? That would surely see the whole class 350 fleet with the same top speed, and avoid the need for any renumbering... though perhaps more by accident than design.

Chris

 

[Bayum]

Has anyone seen an artist's impression of the 387?

I've seen impressions of the Crossrail rolling stock, and the Thameslink rolling stock, but nothing of the more imminent stock we are getting...

 

[Class377/5]

Has anyone seen an artist's impression of the 387?

I've seen impressions of the Crossrail rolling stock, and the Thameslink rolling stock, but nothing of the more imminent stock we are getting...

The only thing we have is the techincal drawings. Basically they look like a 379 in a different livery.

http://sparkyscrum.wordpress.com/2014/03/04/class-3871-for-techincal-details/

The North are getting 319's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_319