Police presence on late night trains.

[Mugby]

I've never travelled on a late night train in train in the Manchester area before but on Saturday I was on the 23.20 Northern service from Oxford Road to Liverpool which I boarded at Warrington. There was a strong BT police presence on the 2 x 150 units and they remained until Lime Street.

How prevalent is this? Is it applied to all last trains or certain selected services and is it just a Saturday night thing? Happily their services were not required on the train I was on!

 

[BestWestern]

Highly likely that they were there at the request of the TOC, either - most probably - by prior arrangement because it is a 'problem' train, or perhaps due to a particular incident or an event that evening. It would be superb if every saturday night train had a copper in every carriage, alas sadly not. Some services suffer from significant issues so frequently that arrangements are made for the train to be accompanied every time (sometimes only after the crews have refused to work it otherwise). There are also a fair few which are double crewed, with two Guards or similar as an extra precaution. The 20.20 from Weymouth on a saturday when showing a full quota has two Guards, two Drivers, BTP and the area on call manager on board, plus a booze ban. Sometimes they manage to find space for a few passengers too! And usually a few idiots will still kick off :-l

 

[sammyg901]

Could be related to this

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-town-centre-QUIETER-Friday-night-usual.html

 

[Clip]

Could be related to this

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-town-centre-QUIETER-Friday-night-usual.html

Looks like I need a night out in Warrington. But I bet its the same and full of people who have gone out in Manchester from Liverpool and places in between. Same between a few big cities and towns all over but some places just dont have the resources to have cops on every train. Oh how I wish we could out of London on a friday/saturday night though as just having themat the station is never enough.

 

[156441]

Deffo a one off.
BTP do regularly travel the lines though. Sadly when you consider how many of them there is and how many late night trains there are you are less then likely to regularly come across them!!

That train is notoriously horrific as is the one coming the other way, 2338 off Lime Street is easily the one train that sends shudders down train crews spines!

 

[Harlesden]

An old fart's point of view.
The two services - the 2320 ex MCO and the 2338 ex LIV - should both be withdrawn on the basis that the cost of policing them far outweighs the revenue earned, and the users of the two services seem to have repeatedly proved that they cannot be trusted to behave in a decent and socially acceptable manner.
The legal minimum age for purchasing alcohol and consuming alcohol in any public place including the street should be raised to 25.

 

[Robinson]

The legal minimum age for purchasing alcohol and consuming alcohol in any public place including the street should be raised to 25.

No. Just no.

I believe the reason we have a binge drinking culture is because young people have been spoon-fed a pseudo-prohibition attitude to alcohol right up until they turn 18, and then as soon as they're "legal" they go crazy for it, because by then they can't wait to try it. Plenty of other countries seem to not have a problem with alcohol abuse which don't all have a legal minimum age of 25 :roll:

 

[yorksrob]

Is it possible to say how much revenue an individual train will contribute, particularly where there are no reserved tickets for that train.

Last trains have an enormous effect on how useful and viable the whole service is, and the benefits of removing them are likely to be negligible as their problems will move to the next earlier train and inconvenience established passengers on those services.

 

[Robinson]

I would add to my earlier post, that we already have enough people buying and drinking alcohol before they turn 18, so what on earth makes anyone think no one will buy or drink it before they turn 25 if the limit was raised?

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed. It would be pretty ridiculous if an 18 year old were able to get married, fight in a war, vote etc but not buy a beer !

 

[ainsworth74]

Indeed. It would be pretty ridiculous if an 18 year old were able to get married, fight in a war, vote etc but not buy a beer !

See the US, drinking age is 21 meaning they can do all of the above but not buy alcohol. Also note it doesn't appear to prevent any problems around excessive drinking. Indeed there is a school of thought growing over there that making the age 21 is making the problem worse...

Prohobiting drinking until 25 will do nothing, at all, to prevent the current issues we face.

 

[156441]

With regards to revenue those services make a fortune. Friday and Saturday both services are very busy. I did a revenue exercise on the 2338 ex-LIV in conjunction with BTP and was surprised that the above train had a high number of users on valid return tickets.

Only around 10% were ticketless and we only had 2 people with no intention of paying which BTP quickly removed.

So as far as revenue is concerned they certainly pay!!

 

[DarloRich]

An old fart's point of view.
The two services - the 2320 ex MCO and the 2338 ex LIV - should both be withdrawn on the basis that the cost of policing them far outweighs the revenue earned, and the users of the two services seem to have repeatedly proved that they cannot be trusted to behave in a decent and socially acceptable manner.
The legal minimum age for purchasing alcohol and consuming alcohol in any public place including the street should be raised to 25.

:rollf course that will help :roll: what happens if it turns out those "who can't be trusted" are over the age of 25?


As for the BTP they often ( but not always ) turned up on the last Northern Newcastle - Darlo train on a Friday/Saturday night as i assume this was well known for "problems". There also semeed to be 2 gaurds on the train on a regular basis.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The legal minimum age for purchasing alcohol and consuming alcohol in any public place including the street should be raised to 25.

I see far more drunks who are over 25 than under.

 

[Clip]

The legal minimum age for purchasing alcohol and consuming alcohol in any public place including the street should be raised to 25.

It's also worth pointing out that a lot of shops and pubs/clubs now actually state that you must carry ID if you look under 25 before they will sell you the stuff. Still doesnt seem to stop it does it and it comes with hefty fines too if they are wrong so raising the age isnt going to do anything.

Just like raising the age of smoking still doesnt stop kids from having a tab or two after school. And just like the case of weed being illegal to possses and smoke doesnt stop it from being prolific in every town and city up and down the country. In fact prohibition on lots of things just doesnt work so your arguement - whilst does have its merits, just doesnt work in practice to stop this sort of behaviour.

 

[ainsworth74]

As for the BTP they often ( but not always ) turned up on the last Northern Newcastle - Darlo train on a Friday/Saturday night as i assume this was well known for "problems". There also semeed to be 2 gaurds on the train on a regular basis.

Oh wonderful, I'm planning on taking this train on Saturday

 

[broadgage]

Highly likely that they were there at the request of the TOC, either - most probably - by prior arrangement because it is a 'problem' train, or perhaps due to a particular incident or an event that evening. It would be superb if every saturday night train had a copper in every carriage, alas sadly not. Some services suffer from significant issues so frequently that arrangements are made for the train to be accompanied every time (sometimes only after the crews have refused to work it otherwise). There are also a fair few which are double crewed, with two Guards or similar as an extra precaution. The 20.20 from Weymouth on a saturday when showing a full quota has two Guards, two Drivers, BTP and the area on call manager on board, plus a booze ban. Sometimes they manage to find space for a few passengers too! And usually a few idiots will still kick off :-l

I can see the point of 2 guards, plus police, and a manager, but why 2 drivers ?

 

[Mugby]

The article about Warrington surprised me. As I walked from Bank Quay to Central on Saturday night, it didn't seem unduly wild, well no more than any other place at the weekend.

The train was packed (and 10 mins late) as it entered Warrington, a lot got off but I would guess there were only about 20 to get on. I was very surprised at larger numbers getting on at smaller places such as Sankey and Widnes.

 

[jon0844]

See the US, drinking age is 21 meaning they can do all of the above but not buy alcohol. Also note it doesn't appear to prevent any problems around excessive drinking. Indeed there is a school of thought growing over there that making the age 21 is making the problem worse...

Prohobiting drinking until 25 will do nothing, at all, to prevent the current issues we face.

Making the drinking age 25 will just create more illegal underage drinkers! It's not the solution in any way whatsoever.

We have a society problem that is the cause of our problems, including anti-social behaviour. That's what we need to 'fix', but goodness knows how.

One thing that might help is being a bit tougher on people, to get the message out there that not only is it unacceptable but you won't get away with it. Yet successive generations seem to think that this is too harsh. I'm not talking about the death penalty here, just a firm and fair punishment.

This is why I believe many other countries don't have the same level of problems. It's by no means unique to Britain of course, but we are still a nation that seems to have the belief that you go out on a mission and to get wasted - and that's a great night out. And when you get into trouble, it's not your fault as you were drunk and just trying to have fun...

 

[Robinson]

I believe the best way to tackle alcohol abuse is to encourage people to use their pubs. Sound bizarre? Well think about it - the pub is a different sort of environment to a club, it (to me at least) drives positive associations with drink, and in my experience it's more common to enjoy it sensibly in that sort of environment.

(Plus, I'm a real ale fan...)

 

[TheKnightWho]

Would the proposal of mimicking Germany, and making the legal age 16 for beer, cider, lager and the like, with 18 being for stronger stuff like vodka sound true with any of you?

I'm not sure where wine would fit, but I can't think of many 16 year olds who even want to drink it. It would certainly help to keep people on the weaker stuff, as spirits were definitely the drink of choice a few years ago when I was 16 and 17; we wouldn't have bothered if we could have just got our hands on some alcopops or lager.

 

[jon0844]

Many pubs in city centres are of course trying to be like clubs, so the traditional pub where people go to socialise are gradually disappearing.

Not least, in other areas, because the tax makes it harder to profit from booze, and many pubs are preferring to sell you food or soft drinks (the latter often the same prize as alcohol!). I guess in the city centres, they try and do both.. food in the day, and then the 'club' at night where they can make money from drink because of the quantity sold.

Lots of the massive night clubs that were big in the 1990s seem to have gone, either to become retail outlets or even a soft play centre that my 19 month old son now uses in Stevenage. It's hard to imagine that 20-odd years ago, I was the one playing in there - with a drink or two in hand!

I really don't know why we have the problem or how to fix it, but when you go abroad (and by that I don't mean to somewhere full of Brits) and go out for a drink, it's a totally different atmosphere. And you can stay out drinking even later into the night/morning.

I do wonder if one of the big problems is the various promotions on drinks and our desire to mix drinks and knock back shots (and the cultural thing that means someone will buy a round of shots and you're compelled to drink them).

 

[DarloRich]

Oh wonderful, I'm planning on taking this train on Saturday

TBH I didn’t see any trouble above people being boisterous
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
@jonmorris0844 - it is a cultural thing - we are still in the mind set of going out at 7 or 8 and trying to drink as much as possible by closing time at 11 - even though you dont need to anymore!

 

[sd0733]

At LM we have our last liverpool- crewe on a Friday (23:34) and saturday (22:04) are horrendous trains to work with numerous pass-com activations, threatening behaviour and occasionally fighting. Unsurprisingly they are the dreaded unwanted shifts and BTP were supposed to have a presense on these services however they now seem to steer well clear and so as a trial an outside security firm is being sourced to patrol these services.
The under-25 rule wouldn't make a blind bit of difference on these services, the average passenger age is probably not far off double 25 on these services.

 

[jon0844]

we are still in the mind set of going out at 7 or 8 and trying to drink as much as possible by closing time at 11 - even though you dont need to anymore!

Well, given few pubs are actually taking advantage of the new laws, to a lot of people it still is a case of drinking up by 11pm or perhaps midnight!

I rarely go out in central London any more, but as there are many more places to go that stay open really late (or all night), I assume there are less problems. I have to admit that I can't say I've seen anything like the problems in and around London as you see on these programmes in other towns and cities.

Clearly Londoners aren't all brilliantly behaved, but perhaps being in a 24-hour city does make people think slightly different? Please note, I'm talking more about the west end than all of London.

 

[Aldaniti]

Making the drinking age 25 will just create more illegal underage drinkers! It's not the solution in any way whatsoever.

We have a society problem that is the cause of our problems, including anti-social behaviour. That's what we need to 'fix', but goodness knows how.

One thing that might help is being a bit tougher on people, to get the message out there that not only is it unacceptable but you won't get away with it. Yet successive generations seem to think that this is too harsh. I'm not talking about the death penalty here, just a firm and fair punishment.

This is why I believe many other countries don't have the same level of problems. It's by no means unique to Britain of course, but we are still a nation that seems to have the belief that you go out on a mission and to get wasted - and that's a great night out. And when you get into trouble, it's not your fault as you were drunk and just trying to have fun...

I couldn't agree with this more. A lot of the country's problems seem to come from a lack of discipline and respect for others. Its about time things changed. There are plenty of people who enjoy a drink and do so responsibly, but I suspect that even they would have to admit there is a problem in this country. The cost of dealing with the effects of alcohol abuse also needs to be tackled and to this extent I would like to see a levy on the drinks industry, just as there is on the banks, to contribute towards it. Of course this will be passed on to the consumer - because we all know that corporate 'shareholder value' needs to be maintained. Politically of course, its a no go-er - too many dipso's, not enough votes and too many MP's in the pockets of said industry.

 

[TheKnightWho]

It also just ends up being a tax on the poor, as any flat-rate tax is.

 

[jon0844]

I wouldn't want to see drink get any more expensive, as we've already broken the £4 barrier for a pint in most places.

If the problem is a cultural one, as well as people feeling the need to consume as many happy hour drinks or shots as they can, we need to try and address that.

Why should you or me have to pay £5 a pint in a pub, when it almost certainly won't stop the idiots getting wasted - albeit having had to pay a bit more in the process. In fact, look around Europe and they'll probably pay a lot less for booze and they're not drinking loads more. In fact, quite the opposite.

And if prices went up more in pubs, we'd have more people pre-loading at home which isn't a great alternative, but one that is becoming increasingly popular.

I can drink for Britain at times, but I only do so socially. Therefore I drink hardly anything at home, unless people are around, and don't feel the need to 'get going' with a few drinks before heading out.

 

[dave55uk]

Perhaps making alcohol less easily available might help - i.e., supermarkets and the like not being allowed to sell the stuff - so that people do have to go to pubs or off licences to buy it. Or, alternatively, making the supermarkets charge the same price as a pub - with no discounts or offers allowed.

 

[simon7929]

TBH I didn’t see any trouble above people being boisterous
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
@jonmorris0844 - it is a cultural thing - we are still in the mind set of going out at 7 or 8 and trying to drink as much as possible by closing time at 11 - even though you dont need to anymore!

Not that much trouble but lots of noise! Still try to avoid when possible! Saturday is busier as the train continues to Middlesbrough rather than terminating at Darlington.