FCC fined £75k over "absolute shambles"

[RichJF]

Although this was 2x class 377; I have been on an FCC class 319 that got stuck behind a broken down train outside Redhill once +plus signalling problems (a different occasion to a similar occurrence on a Southern train). I will share my brief experience.

The two classes differ, but in terms of the FCC staff; the driver did all he could to keep the passengers informed every 10mins, however he had no information & repeatedly said FCC control would not update him. I recall the driver's words being "Southen have informed me".

Passengers did get annoyed, but because the FCC train crew tried to do their best, I think that helped to an extent.

 

[Mark_H]

Door screens are an interesting idea. I hadn't even heard of them before this report came out. It's a lot of extra workload for the driver stuck with the stranded train when he/she is already going to be overwhelmed by the situation, so I'd be a little cautious about using them. Frankly, my own number one priority would be to get the train moving as soon as I can.

Southern have them, apparently. They're probably not intended for the driver to use, which I agree would be a big job for a lone driver. A strong point in the report was that FCC ought to have had extra staff out to manage the situation within the hour (under FCC's own procedures, if not just under common sense), and that is exactly the sort of thing that a liaison officer could have done, freeing up the driver to help get the situation fixed.

 

[ess]

£75000 is peanuts though. Less than 13 PBO - KGX season tickets (FCC Only).

 

[Chrisgr31]

Surely part of the problem in this case is that the driver has to liase with control about the safety of the train and passengers and whats going to happen to them, and they have to liaise with the passengers, tell them whats going to happen etc, and has to find the fault on the train and try and fix it, discussing it with engineers etc.

Surely therefore the solution has to be to get additional staff out to the train to provide support to the driver and to reassure the passengers. They can get to the train by driving to the nearest track access point and then walking. On a number of occasions their journey will be superflous and the train gone before they get there but the times they are needed they are definitely needed.

I was on a Class 171 Southern train the other evening, was the last service to Uckfield out of London Bridge and we came to halt just short of Oxted. For some reason it was a 2+4 train rather than the usual 4 car unit only. Being diesel the engines and thus the air con, lighting and PA remained operational. However the guard and driver made regular annoucements as to what was happening and why we werent moving and what they were doing to try and get us moving. The guard also passed regularly through the rear carriages and it transpired the driver had done the same through the front 2 carriages.

As it was a late friday evening train a number of the passengers were worse for wear and therefore potentially more likely to cause trouble but the actions of the crew kept everyone calm.

The incident was caused by someone tresspassing on the track between Oxted and Uckfield, the power was off and an electric unit thus stranded in the platform at Oxted.

However our driver was eventually able to persuade those in charge that he should be allowed to bring the diesel unti into Oxted behind the stuck electric as the front unit would fit entirely and the driving cab of the rear unit would fit on the platform. This then enabled all the passengers to get off discuss what was happening with the traincrew, platform staff, and others who had been called in. It was an excellent example of the train crew doing all they could to keep the passengers informed and enable them to take decisions regarding their onward journey. In the event afer we had been in the platform for 30 minutes or so the trespasser was apprehended and the power restored and we could carry on, albeit 2 hours late by which time Southern also had a fleet of taxis as an alternative means of transport.

In reality all there was little else Southern could have done, unless they could have magiced tea, coffee or beer from somewhere!

 

[jon0844]

Well, FCC wouldn't be paying for their own season tickets - but, still, it's not a tiny amount of money.

In fact it seems a lot of money given nobody died, and I am not aware of any that suffered such extreme heat exhaustion that they were rushed to hospital. That and the fact that the situation was hindered by people getting off.

But, FCC certainly isn't coming out this looking like an innocent victim and hopefully the fine will focus their minds a little more.

They produce some excellent leaflets for passengers on how to cope during disruption at any given station, and I'd have expected they'd have very detailed guides for internal use on how to deal with incidents that happen at any station (and in between) so they can instantly fire up 'plan x' without having to do loads of assessments that could be done well in advance.

I know I'm simplifying things a little here, but the concept is sound. What would you do with a train stuck in any given location - how would you get access to it from the road - where would these people need to come from etc.

 

[dk1]

£75000 is peanuts though. Less than 13 PBO - LKX season tickets (FCC Only).

Around 10 minutes takings

 

[Mark_H]

£75000 is peanuts though. Less than 13 PBO - LKX season tickets (FCC Only).

The legislation appears to have a maximum fine of £20k per offence. Presumably at least 4 offences were involved to get to £75k. The true penalty is the bad publicity.

 

[Murph]

Well, FCC wouldn't be paying for their own season tickets - but, still, it's not a tiny amount of money.

In fact it seems a lot of money given nobody died, and I am not aware of any that suffered such extreme heat exhaustion that they were rushed to hospital. That and the fact that the situation was hindered by people getting off.

Sure, people getting off did add to the rescue time, but it's important to consider WHY they got off. I humbly suggest that it's because they had (not unreasonably) lost all faith/confidence in FCC to rescue them, and felt that they had to self-rescue. That somewhat redirects the blame squarely back at FCC (had they handled things adequately within the first 60-90 minutes, it's far less likely that people would have resorted to self-rescue).

 

[causton]

Sure, people getting off did add to the rescue time, but it's important to consider WHY they got off. I humbly suggest that it's because they had (not unreasonably) lost all faith/confidence in FCC to rescue them, and felt that they had to self-rescue. That somewhat redirects the blame squarely back at FCC (had they handled things adequately within the first 60-90 minutes, it's far less likely that people would have resorted to self-rescue).

Presumably they have little faith that FCC can even get them to and from work every day, so depending on them to rescue you and save you is a step too far for them! :roll:

 

[Mark_H]

Sure, people getting off did add to the rescue time, but it's important to consider WHY they got off. I humbly suggest that it's because they had (not unreasonably) lost all faith/confidence in FCC to rescue them, and felt that they had to self-rescue. That somewhat redirects the blame squarely back at FCC (had they handled things adequately within the first 60-90 minutes, it's far less likely that people would have resorted to self-rescue).

The report agrees with you. The passengers feeling they had to get out is laid squarely at the feet of FCC's collapse in communications and delays. FCC's own policy states that detraining should be finished within 90mins of breakdown, and should be begun the moment it becomes clear that the delay will go over 60mins.

(It's worth pointing out that the passengers disembarking happened 2hrs 37mins into the breakdown and passengers had been in the train for 30mins before that)

 

[sarahj]

Yes, we have door screen for hot weather use. There is one per unit. Once used, they have to be manned at all times by someone who is responsible, ie other rail staff, police or HM forces. Once set up it cannot be left unmanned by said person. Its like a canvas/plastic yellow thing with poles to keep upright. Goes up to about waist height.

I've been on trains that have lost power, you just have to walk through the train and talk to people. Some are fine, others less so. You have to try and not get bogged down with someone who wants your attention 100% of the time. On a packed DOO train, this get difficult to do, but even as a passenger, or just passing, I've helped out when needed.

One day I was up shopping in London, coming home (on a southern service). Train halted. Driver make a small anouncement. So i locked up my shopping in a cupboard. Used my keys to open a panel and chat to the driver. Left him to get on with the issues and kept the pass informed. Made life easier. Also handy that I have spare train keys on my main house keys key ring. Plus my work phone, to keep me UTD with any delays on my day out, so was able to chat to control. Funny thing was, even though i was in civis, and my only ID was my staff rail pass (with my PTS and licence card). Not one person questioned me as I opened panels and even popped into the back cab. The only odd look was when I first got up and locked my shopping away.

 

[Chrisgr31]

One day I was up shopping in London, coming home (on a southern service). Train halted. Driver make a small anouncement. So i locked up my shopping in a cupboard. Used my keys to open a panel and chat to the driver. Left him to get on with the issues and kept the pass informed. Made life easier. Also handy that I have spare train keys on my main house keys key ring. Plus my work phone, to keep me UTD with any delays on my day out, so was able to chat to control. Funny thing was, even though i was in civis, and my only ID was my staff rail pass (with my PTS and licence card). Not one person questioned me as I opened panels and even popped into the back cab. The only odd look was when I first got up and locked my shopping away.

I suspect there are a number of Southern guards that would do what you did, there are definitely some that are better than others. One evening the 18.08 ex LBG to UCK got stuck at OXT due to a door issue. The guard rushed around flapping and it wasn't until James appeared who was the guard on a train that came up from UCK and was due to operate the shuttle back that the situation was taken control off, and we all detrained on to the shuttle to leave the stuck train behind. Had James not appeared I suspect we would have been stuck for hours.

 

[jon0844]

The only odd look was when I first got up and locked my shopping away.

Every little helps!

 

[broadgage]

The report agrees with you. The passengers feeling they had to get out is laid squarely at the feet of FCC's collapse in communications and delays. FCC's own policy states that detraining should be finished within 90mins of breakdown, and should be begun the moment it becomes clear that the delay will go over 60mins.

(It's worth pointing out that the passengers disembarking happened 2hrs 37mins into the breakdown and passengers had been in the train for 30mins before that)

Indeed, after 2 hours and 37 minutes I would be seriously considering escape, especialy in an urban area.
As others post, the top priority in case of serious delay seems to be to keep everyone on the train for as as long as possible, and when they escape to try and blame the whole episode on the escapees.

I am not one who believes that everything is better overseas, but on the other hand I have NEVER heard of French or German rail passengers being trapped on a local/urban train for 3 hours, in the dark as a result of a single breakdown.

(it may have happened in remote places, that is more understandable, it may also have occured in case of say a regional power failure. But so far as I am aware, elswhere in Europe, 3 hour+ delays simply do not happen on local services as a result of a single faulty train.)

 

[455driver]

Of course if Network Rail had maintained the trees at the side of the railway correctly then none of this would have happened would it!

 

[NSEFAN]

I am not one who believes that everything is better overseas, but on the other hand I have NEVER heard of French or German rail passengers being trapped on a local/urban train for 3 hours, in the dark as a result of a single breakdown.

(it may have happened in remote places, that is more understandable, it may also have occured in case of say a regional power failure. But so far as I am aware, elswhere in Europe, 3 hour+ delays simply do not happen on local services as a result of a single faulty train.)

How likely is it that such incidents would be reported in the UK press? What are the odds that I can find someone from France or Germany who says that their trains are the worst in the world, always breaking down, stuck for ages, etc?

 

[EM2]

I am not one who believes that everything is better overseas, but on the other hand I have NEVER heard of French or German rail passengers being trapped on a local/urban train for 3 hours, in the dark as a result of a single breakdown.

(it may have happened in remote places, that is more understandable, it may also have occured in case of say a regional power failure. But so far as I am aware, elswhere in Europe, 3 hour+ delays simply do not happen on local services as a result of a single faulty train.)

Oh really? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eatment-trapped-high-tech-train-50C-heat.html

A group of schoolchildren were among 52 people who needed medical treatment after they were trapped inside three high-tech trains in Germany in temperatures up to 50C.

The air conditioning in the three trains failed during the heatwave and around 1,000 people had to switch to another train, national rail company Deutsche Bahn said.

All three modern ICE trains - which has windows that do not open - were headed west from Berlin.

http://www.thelocal.de/national/20130402-48873.html

A bird is being blamed for trapping hundreds of passengers in a train for most of Monday night - stuck in a tunnel while en route from Frankfurt to Cologne.
The ICE train was near the town of Idstein in the central state of Hesse when it ground to a halt in the tunnel - and stayed there for nearly four hours.

http://connexionfrance.com/tgv-pass...gaulle-link-power-cut-12942-view-article.html

TRAIN passengers were trapped for four hours in a tunnel yesterday after their TGV broke down.

The blocked train was carrying 300 people from Paris to Besançon and came to a halt in the tunnel in Limeil-Brévannes, in the Val-de-Marne, shortly after 7.00.

About 30 SNCF staff tried to fix the fault, before the passengers were evacuated at about 11.00 on to a replacement train.

Three minutes on Google, searching 'Deutsche Bahn trapped' and 'SNCF trapped'.

 

[broadgage]

Interesting, not certain if I find that re-assuring or not !

 

[A-driver]

Indeed, after 2 hours and 37 minutes I would be seriously considering escape, especialy in an urban area.
As others post, the top priority in case of serious delay seems to be to keep everyone on the train for as as long as possible, and when they escape to try and blame the whole episode on the escapees.

I am not one who believes that everything is better overseas, but on the other hand I have NEVER heard of French or German rail passengers being trapped on a local/urban train for 3 hours, in the dark as a result of a single breakdown.

(it may have happened in remote places, that is more understandable, it may also have occured in case of say a regional power failure. But so far as I am aware, elswhere in Europe, 3 hour+ delays simply do not happen on local services as a result of a single faulty train.)

Don't be so stupid. You say that with nothing to back it up whatsoever. So the uk is the only country in the world to have breakdowns leading to incidents? What a stupid thing to suggest. As others have already pointed out, it happens just as often in Other countries, including France and Germany as it does here.

And it's hardly a regular occurrence here, despite how the press try to report it.

 

[broadgage]

I do not consider my remarks to be stupid at all.
Of course other countries have breakdowns and delays, including the ones linked to above.
These things happen.
I am not however aware of delays of 3 hours or more on intensively used metro type services, as a result of a single train failure.
I have no doubt that French or German suburban trains break down, but I suspect that they are hauled or propelled, or otherwise moved, or evacuated in a lot less than 3 hours.

The FCC incident refered to was one of the worst, hence the prosecution, but delays of over an hour, on crush loaded trains, in the dark, below ground seem to be a regular event.
A delay of say 90 minutes, seated, at a reasonable temperature, and with lighting and toilets, is merely iritating. A delay of 90 minutes standing in the dark on a crush loaded train, without ventilation or toilets is, or should be an emergency.

One of the incidents linked to above was about potentialy dangerous internal temperatures due to air conditioning failure. Such events have also occured in the UK.

 

[jon0844]

With all due respect, how the hell are you going to know about every delay that might happen, or have happened, throughout Europe?

Things happen every day in the UK that don't get widely reported.. not even in local newspapers, let alone a nice website that shows European (or global) railway delays that you can easily refer to.

However, if I was a gambling man, I'd say the chances are pretty high that there have been problems - and as you go further east, I'd say the chances increase further as there's still some very old rolling stock in use in some places.

Sure, health and safety rules seem to be taken a lot less seriously in many EU states (rightly or wrongly) so you might find that it's considered okay just to jump off the trains - but it still doesn't mean every incident is dealt with like clockwork. Especially in rural and inaccessible places.

I'd guess that some old trains probably have equally high chances that emergency equipment might fail, or not even exist in the first place.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Trains break down and cause delays everywhere. It isn't a problem specific to the UK and anyone who says it is is being a bit foolish.

But in the rest of Europe you don't have the same disconnect between the operator and the track owner- with a few isolated examples in Germany, they're the same company, so you don't get the peeing contest about who should pay for the delays.

The fact remains that passengers were trapped on a crush loaded train in a tunnel for nearly three hours, solely because of the incompetence of First Capital Connect. The RAIB report couldn't have been more damning. Trying to blame passengers for what happened is pathetic, to be honest, and the sort of thing you'd only expect of the grubbiest of money-grabbing companies (so First then). The only surprise is that passengers didn't do it sooner, and that more of them weren't at Kentish Town station after walking up the track.

The RAIB report couldn't have been more damning. Never mind the fines, they go to the Treasury anyway, every single person on that train should have been issued with a complimentary annual season ticket in compensation for what they were put through.

 

[Mark_H]

The fact remains that passengers were trapped on a crush loaded train in a tunnel for nearly three hours, solely because of the incompetence of First Capital Connect. The RAIB report couldn't have been more damning. Trying to blame passengers for what happened is pathetic, to be honest, and the sort of thing you'd only expect of the grubbiest of money-grabbing companies (so First then). The only surprise is that passengers didn't do it sooner, and that more of them weren't at Kentish Town station after walking up the track.

Agreed. Without data, the comparisons with Europe are a red herring, but the fact remains that by any objective criteria FCC made a catalogue of erors for which they have been rightly castigated. The public opprobrium will hopefully induce them to improve things, because I doubt £75k in fines will.

 

[jon0844]

@Arctic Troll, The RAIB did lay some blame on passengers, and for better or worse - FCC has now made some big changes. Question is, have all the other TOCs taken note or will you be saying the same when it's another operator in a similar situation in the years to come?

And what about East Coast? Not a private operator there, but has had problems which has resulted in windows being smashed for ventilation. Are they another money-grabbing company?

Like the snow, the industry can sometimes underinvest in things that aren't considered very likely or frequent problems. That's an issue it needs to address, but it will inevitably increase costs and that means WE pay for it. I mean, I'm sure we could have helicopters on standby throughout the UK with an army of rescue workers that are allowed on the tracks, and get to people (not just in a city, but also the incidents that happened in rural areas) in minutes - but how many times a year would they be called upon?

As for the complimentary season ticket bit - have you been smoking something dodgy?! That's a ridiculously huge compensation for something that wasn't as serious as it admittedly could have been. You don't pay out for things that could have happened though.

 

[Tetchytyke]

EastCoast has some pretty shocking crisis management too (and despite being technically state-owned, they're just as money-grabbing as National Express were), but I don't recall a situation where they've left a crush loaded train stuck in a cramped tunnel for over three hours 300yds from a station without any management or control.

RAIB said the actions of the passengers were a "contributing factor" for the reason why the train moved with doors open, which is a fair comment. They were not a contributing factor to the main issue: that FCC control failed to support their driver, who was left to attempt to manage an unmanageable situation on a train he did not understand how to operate. RAIB also blamed FCC for the passengers actions, commenting on several occasions that passengers did what they did due to "intolerable conditions" and a complete failure of FCC control to be anything more useful than a chocolate teapot.

As for your comment about trains stranded in difficult locations to reach: that would be a valid argument if this train was stranded in a difficult to reach location. It wasn't. The train was barely out of St Pancras station. It was also not far from Kentish Town. It would have been perfectly safe to detrain and walk passengers back to either station, if only FCC control had stopped dithering and made a decision.

I really hope FCC have learned from this and that they share their lessons with the rest of the industry. And if it happens again then yes, I will be scathing about whichever operator causes it to happen. It is not acceptable. As for compensation, yes it is a lot of money to compensate someone. What of it? TOCs and NR should be hit where it hurts when they screw up.

 

[Domh245]

@Arctic Troll, The RAIB did lay some blame on passengers, and for better or worse

Well, technically, they said that the actions of some of the passengers was a casual factor, as the RAIB never lay blame on anyone [/pedant]

As for the incident, most of the problem, in my opinion lay with the FCC controllers, who a) chose to use a 377 to pull out the train, rather than using a 319, which I seem to remember, is a valid option, amongst other poor choices, but in a high pressure situation, you can't really lay the blame on them, they also had to deal with turning trains around either side of the incident.

 

[A-driver]

Well, technically, they said that the actions of some of the passengers was a casual factor, as the RAIB never lay blame on anyone [/pedant]

As for the incident, most of the problem, in my opinion lay with the FCC controllers, who a) chose to use a 377 to pull out the train, rather than using a 319, which I seem to remember, is a valid option, amongst other poor choices, but in a high pressure situation, you can't really lay the blame on them, they also had to deal with turning trains around either side of the incident.

319s and 377s are not compatible. Different couplers for a start so would need a fitter to bring an adaptor in a van for that to work.

 

[Domh245]

319s and 377s are not compatible. Different couplers for a start so would need a fitter to bring an adaptor in a van for that to work.

In the report it stated that an emergency adapter was located on the platform at St. Pancras, and this was provided for just such an eventuality

 

[A-driver]

In the report it stated that an emergency adapter was located on the platform at St. Pancras, and this was provided for just such an eventuality

Indeed but putting yourself in the shoes of the decision makers on that day it would still be quicker to get the 377 a few trains ahead turned around and run back to attach to the dead unit than get the emergancy coupler to the site, get the RSI there, get it all bolted up etc (attaching an emergancy coupler takes longer than just banging 2 units together) and its also not the safest option with passenger trains as you would be dead hauling a unit, running into issues with brakes, safety systems etc

The complications with the rescue 377 couldn't be predicted. It would have been frowned upon if they just sent the emerg coupler there straight away.

And then of course lets face it that if they had gone for towing the unit away with a 319 and something had gone wrong causing injury or worse then they would still have been fined and people on this forum would be saying "why on earth did they decide to use an emergancy coupler when there was a 377 not far away which could have just turned around and run back to safely and properly rescue the stranded train" so without a crystal ball, which ever decision you make has a 50/50 chance of being the wrong one.

Like other recent threads on here people don't seem to appreciate that its very different to comment after the event than to be there juggling everything trying to make the right calls (I know you have already stated that control would have been swamped and its true). As well as dealing with that one stranded train FCCs SDC would also be trying to keep some sort of service running-trying onto get trains turned around elsewhere, sorting out ticket acceptance, trying to get info out to stations and staff etc etc.

 

[Murph]

Like other recent threads on here people don't seem to appreciate that its very different to comment after the event than to be there juggling everything trying to make the right calls (I know you have already stated that control would have been swamped and its true). As well as dealing with that one stranded train FCCs SDC would also be trying to keep some sort of service running-trying onto get trains turned around elsewhere, sorting out ticket acceptance, trying to get info out to stations and staff etc etc.

Ok, this is probably going to be controversial to some, but I feel compelled to say it…

It's a fundamental and critical part of their job to handle what should be a routine failure. If they allow it to get to the stage where conditions inside the train are expected to be "intolerable" (RSSB / RAIB's choice of word, not mine), they have fundamentally failed, and failed severely in meeting their duty of care and responsibilities. They deserve the extremely harsh criticism that they are getting!

Yes, some people do criticize in a way that makes it seem like they expect FCC to wave a magic wand, but that doesn't change the fact that they did fail very badly in this case.

("They" being FCC as a whole, and their senior management, not hard working people on the front lines trying to do their best in a situation that's spiralling downwards.)