Rolling stock after South Wales Valleys electrification

[carlejo]

Any idea of what stock ATW would be acquiring for when the lines are electrified in the next couple of years ?

 

[Manchester77]

Class 315s however I'd personally like 319s. 86 319s split between valleys and the north (36 & 50)

 

[ValleyLines142]

I'd like 379s!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The business case for electrification was made based on using 315s made redundant by Crossrail. The folks in Cardiff Bay may well try to make a case for new stock, but most previous electrification schemes outside London and the South East have used cascaded stock at least initially. In fact, I'm now wondering when and where the last 'provincial' electrification scheme that had new stock from the start was. I suspect the Glasgow area, though the new 350s for Manchester-Glasgow will be another example.

 

[anthony263]

Sewta have stated in their most recent reports that they expect the stock to be class 315's for the Cardiff Valley Lines network. Quite a lof of these units will be reduced to 3 carriages allowing them to work in pairs during the peaks and as single units off peak.

The enhanced Swanline service however is one which may or may not use class 315's in particular if it is extended as part of a enhanced Cardiff - Bristol TM south wales metro service. Rumours going around locally that it could be class 377's especially if afurther batch is ordered by southern/DFT due to the higher linespeeds on the SWML.

Local services on non electrified routes wiill most likely be class 150/158/175's with a plan to have an hourly Cardiff - Chepstow local service in addition to an enhanced Cardiff - Cheltenham service operating via the relief lines to Severn Tunnel Junction serving new stations at St Mellons & Llanwern. These are likely to be interworked with the Cardiff - Holyhead/Manchester services the latter being cut back to terminate at Cardiff rather than Milford Haven.

SEWTA are really pushing for the Pontyclun - Beddau line to be re-opened with a 2tph service to Cardiff serving Miskin and St Fagans along with a 2tph Maesteg - Cardiff service. The station at Miskin is expected to act as a major park & ride site and will be located on the Miskin loops which will be upgraded and entry and exit speeds increased.

The report from Sewta which I have attached should be a pretty good read

 

[Eagle]

Local services on non electrified routes wiill most likely be class 150/158/175's with a plan to have an hourly Cardiff - Chepstow local service in addition to an enhanced Cardiff - Cheltenham service operating via the relief lines to Severn Tunnel Junction serving new stations at St Mellons & Llanwern. These are likely to be interworked with the Cardiff - Holyhead/Manchester services the latter being cut back to terminate at Cardiff rather than Milford Haven.

Is there still also a plan for extra services from Cardiff to Cwmbrân and Abergavenny? I remember seeing something about a new station at Sebastopol/Griffithstown.

 

[anthony263]

Yes there is a plan for a local service between Cardiff/Newport & Abergavenny.

I suppose if timed right and the route is wired eventually perhaps the proposed Ebbw Vale/Caerphilly - Newport services could run there rather than terminate @ Newport.

This service was planed to be interworked with the Cardiff - Manchester/Holyhead services so the stock would be class 158/175's while the Cardiff - Cheltenham service would run hourly and be interworked with a new hourly Cardiff - Chepstow local service both of which would run over the relief line which would be upgraded to allow higher running speeds and free up capacity on the relief lines between Cardiff & Newport. The Cardiff - Nottingham trains are supposed to run non stop between Cardiff/Newport - Gloucester reducing journey times

One particular issue at Cardiff Central is the number of trains which terminate and need to reverse out of the station to the sidings at Canton before crossing back to platforms 0/1/2 the latter two are expcted to be made bi-directional along with platform 3 when network rail upgrade the signalling and track layout.

I suppose trains having quicker turnarounds at Cardiff would help the operators FGW's services from Portsmouth Hbr/Taunton have about 40 minutes turnaround is that was reduced to 15 minutes or so you could free up a unit or two for use elsewhere

By the time electrification has reached Swansea all the timetables around Cardiff will be recast taking into account sharply reduced journey times for example Aberdare/Merthyr Tydfil - Cardiff will be reduced from 61 minutes to just 48-50 minutes the same with services from Rhymney and Treherbert the latter expected to be further enhanced by running limited stop between Pontypridd and Cardiff Queen Street with a half hourly stopping service between Cardiff & Pontypridd calling ate the local stations between Pontypridd & Radyr.

 

[WatcherZero]

As said the business plan was based on the 315's though theres since been murmurings that they think they could only get another 5 years of life out them on the Cardiff Metro.

 

[Eagle]

As an interim solution that's not bad though.

 

[anthony263]

I agree I dont think the class 315's will stay long in south wales. At least the GA red & white livery will need little or no changing when they arrive in south wales.

I wouldnt be too surprised if we did end up getting displaced class 321's or something from London Midland/GA in the future if those franchises got new rolling stock.

Then again what happens if the C2C franchise got new rolling stock there will bea lot of class 357's to go around having travelled on them I think if they were fitted with 2+2 seating they would be great consdering they have fast acceleration and can do 100mph.


One of Sewta's idea's if the Beddau - Pontyclun branch is re-opened is for the services to run half hourly crossing each other @ Pontyclun and together with the 2tph from Maesteg provide a 15 minutely interval between Pontyclun & Cardiff.

The use of EMU's will release some capacity on the line between Bridgend and Cardiff so it will be possible to path these enehanced services along with the hourly FGW service to London and the two ATW services which operate non stop between Bridgend & Cardiff along with two freight paths.

The Miskin loops will be upgraded to allow local passenger and freight services to be overtaken by non stopping services.

As many of us have said previously in other threads the Beddau service is very likely to be very popular and the enhanced service between Pontyclun and Cardiff is likely to make Pontyclun station very busy during the peaks.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Then again what happens if the C2C franchise got new rolling stock there will bea lot of class 357's to go around having travelled on them I think if they were fitted with 2+2 seating they would be great consdering they have fast acceleration and can do 100mph.

Sorry to divert the topic, but have there been murmurings to suggest that 'Essex Thameside' is likely to recieve new stock only 15 years the 357s?

I suppose the development of the old "Misery Line" has been one of the successes of privatisation!

 

[Manchester77]

It's been rumoured that C2C might get additional trains to boost capacity but not a new fleet

 

[Michael.Y]

With regards to an earlier post, there are also murmerings about new stations at Caerleon (between Newport and Cwmbran), Pye Corner (Ebbw Jn and Ty Du) and as mentioned, St Mellons / Wentloog etc, as well as the well overdue extensions to Cwm and Ebbw Vale Town / Abertillery.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Where's SEWTA getting all this money from? WG is still committed to A465 dualling and M4 Relief Road this will consume the bulk of the capital budget for years to come. It's 315's on existing services unless the priority s change in Cardiff Bay.

 

[Eagle]

With regards to an earlier post, there are also murmerings about new stations at Caerleon (between Newport and Cwmbran), Pye Corner (Ebbw Jn and Ty Du) and as mentioned, St Mellons / Wentloog etc, as well as the well overdue extensions to Cwm and Ebbw Vale Town / Abertillery.

Pye Corner is more than murmurings; the station has got funding from Network Rail's "New Stations" moneypot (along with Kenilworth, Ilkeston, Lea Bridge and Newcourt).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Sorry to divert the topic, but have there been murmurings to suggest that 'Essex Thameside' is likely to recieve new stock only 15 years the 357s?

Not before the next franchise bids due in 2015.
The aborted bids last year (for a 15-year franchise) invited rolling stock proposals to run additional services, but that was canned like the others.
The current short franchise extension does not involve any rolling stock changes.

 

[SeanG]

I suppose trains having quicker turnarounds at Cardiff would help the operators FGW's services from Portsmouth Hbr/Taunton have about 40 minutes turnaround is that was reduced to 15 minutes or so you could free up a unit or two for use elsewhere

But this route is a long route, so the lengthy turnaround is handy.
At the moment, the incoming service can be 35, say, minutes late and still leave with the next service on time.

Cutting the turnaround time would surely lead to a greater possibility of knock on delays?

 

[anthony263]

Yes you do make a good argument but even with the long turnarounds at Cardiff services are still turned back at Newport if they are delayed sometimes.

Plus it is likely that with electrification that the services from Portsmouth Harbour/Taunton will be cut back to Bristol Temple Meads from 2017 in favour fo a new 3 or 4tph shuttle service running between Swansea/Cardiff - Bristol TM & Bath Spa.

 

[Michael.Y]

Plus it is likely that with electrification that the services from Portsmouth Harbour/Taunton will be cut back to Bristol Temple Meads from 2017 in favour fo a new 3 or 4tph shuttle service running between Swansea/Cardiff - Bristol TM & Bath Spa.

Not unless the ORR redraw the franchise map. Running diesel units under wires may be undesirable, but while the Marches remains unelectrified, it will still occur in ATW land, so a few FGW units here and there won't make any difference. Same as the XC Turbostars.

 

[edwin_m]

But this route is a long route, so the lengthy turnaround is handy.
At the moment, the incoming service can be 35, say, minutes late and still leave with the next service on time.

Cutting the turnaround time would surely lead to a greater possibility of knock on delays?

The turnaround may also be a mandatory staff break, in which case a 35 late arrival means a late departure.

 

[A0]

I agree I dont think the class 315's will stay long in south wales. At least the GA red & white livery will need little or no changing when they arrive in south wales.

I wouldnt be too surprised if we did end up getting displaced class 321's or something from London Midland/GA in the future if those franchises got new rolling stock.

Then again what happens if the C2C franchise got new rolling stock there will bea lot of class 357's to go around having travelled on them I think if they were fitted with 2+2 seating they would be great consdering they have fast acceleration and can do 100mph.


One of Sewta's idea's if the Beddau - Pontyclun branch is re-opened is for the services to run half hourly crossing each other @ Pontyclun and together with the 2tph from Maesteg provide a 15 minutely interval between Pontyclun & Cardiff.

The use of EMU's will release some capacity on the line between Bridgend and Cardiff so it will be possible to path these enehanced services along with the hourly FGW service to London and the two ATW services which operate non stop between Bridgend & Cardiff along with two freight paths.

The Miskin loops will be upgraded to allow local passenger and freight services to be overtaken by non stopping services.

As many of us have said previously in other threads the Beddau service is very likely to be very popular and the enhanced service between Pontyclun and Cardiff is likely to make Pontyclun station very busy during the peaks.

I reckon a better solution would be to consolidate all the class 323s from LM and Northern and move them to South Wales - when I suggested this on another thread it was reckoned there'd be enough of those.

LM could then take more 350s which would standardise their EMU fleet quite nicely. Northern could get a new build of whatever they wanted - which would add capacity in the Manchester / Liverpool area.

I could see the 321s heading to Northern as well, given they already have some of them. Either that or the GN side of FCC might see a few more of them.

 

[D365]

The 70s PEP type EMU is a solid build, better acceleration than the succeeding Mk3 EMUs. I reckon if the Valleys go for 315s, a wise choice imho (done up like the Mk3s are planned, perhaps - retrofit traction will somewhat improve the standing), they'll probably see out 5-10 years, until about or just after the GN (mostly Hertford/Moorgate), remaining Anglia (could soldier on till about Crossrail 2) and Scottish (380 replacement) fleets are replaced.

323s have been an idea but I reckon it more useful to consolidate at Northern. 13 GN, 7 Midland (post-350/4) to GA, replace 21 360s. Merged with HC 5, 26 like-for-like replace Birmingham 323s, to Northern. 3+5 Northern 321/322 to GA as well as 12 GN, 9 SX 317. Replace all 315s, to Valley and maybe somewhere else. 319 to Northern, 377/8 to GW and MML Corby, perhaps. Refurbished as required.

TGN shouldn't need any more after 700; 365s and 313s kept, latter replaced 7-15 years from now. If LTS needs more units, shouldn't be too much of a problem to add additional units to say, a Southern or GW Bombardier order, with 357 compatibility and a different cab. As Chiltern did with their 4 172/1s. And there you have it; once again, my plan.

 

[cslusarc]

What I don't get is why do the "powers that be" want to cascade the Class 315s when they will immediately make their 61 TSOs redundant by converting the 61 Class 315s to three-car units. I think that the Class 315s can be retained by the new TfL controlled West Anglia Metro concession holder and any surplus Class 315s can also run on the soon to be electrified GOBLIN.

What I'd like to see is the some of the three-car pre-privatization EMUs now operated by ScotRail head south to England and Wales if ScotRail began the process of standardizing their EMU fleet with Class 380 Desiros. The Valley Lines could have their choice of 16 Class 314s, 21 Class 318 and/or 22 Class 320s.

 

[anthony263]

Well the WG have said some peak hour services would be formed by by a pair of class 315's in other words a 6 carriage train.

At the moment only the platforms on the Treherbert and Rhymney lines have been lengthened to accomodate 6 carriage trains. It is proposed to do the Merthyr and Aberdare lines in the future however Bridgend platform 0 will not be able to be extended at you have a listed fottbridge & station building at the end of the bay and the junction between the Vale and SWML at the eastern end of the platform.

So 4 carriages with probably be the maximum you will be able to use on the Bridgend services for now.

 

[gwr4090]

Local services on non electrified routes wiill most likely be class 150/158/175's with a plan to have an hourly Cardiff - Chepstow local service in addition to an enhanced Cardiff - Cheltenham service operating via the relief lines to Severn Tunnel Junction serving new stations at St Mellons & Llanwern. These are likely to be interworked with the Cardiff - Holyhead/Manchester services the latter being cut back to terminate at Cardiff rather than Milford Haven.

I am told that there are no plans to remove or cut back the hourly Manchester-Carmarthen/Milford services, but that many stops west of Cardiff will be cut out to accelerate the service. Presumably these stops would be covered by the proposed hourly electrified Swanline service which is a SEWTA aspiration.

One slightly worrying issue is that DfT is apparently assuming that quite a few Swansea-Paddington services will be covered by 5-car IEPs, replacing 8-car HSTs, which I guess means a reduction in seats ?

 

[D365]

One slightly worrying issue is that DfT is apparently assuming that quite a few Swansea-Paddington services will be covered by 5-car IEPs, replacing 8-car HSTs, which I guess means a reduction in seats ?

Doubled up where needed I am sure, to increase capacity per service/path. A fair few people seem to struggle to recognise that. [I don't mean specifically in this instance]

 

[Eagle]

Or even 10-car to Cardiff, then 5-car to Swansea. (I have no idea if the loadings warrant doing that, but it's definitely something that could be done if required.)

 

[anthony263]

I am told that there are no plans to remove or cut back the hourly Manchester-Carmarthen/Milford services, but that many stops west of Cardiff will be cut out to accelerate the service. Presumably these stops would be covered by the proposed hourly electrified Swanline service which is a SEWTA aspiration.

Well they can accelerate the services now by removing some of the recovery time in the timetable. Services do have about 7-10 minutes at Swansea to allow staff to change ends but perhaps this could be reduced. Perhpas a good idea might be to get additional class 158's for the Manchester - Llandudno/Holyhead services allowing the class 175's to be concentrated on the Manchester/Holyhead - South wales services where their 100mph top speed would be better used.

Even with an hourly swanline service there is still going to be a demand for the Manchester - Milford Haven services to stop at Pyle during the peaks as they are very well used. (See how many passengers get on the 06:08, 07:31 & 08:10 Manchester services from Pyle and travel on the 17:04 & 17:39 from Cardiff and you will see what I mean)

Anyway I can understand why they have decided not to cut back this services as it is very well used by people traveling to Cardiff and beyond by passengers west of Swansea. I do hope though extra stock is brought in to enable the services which at present terminate at Carmarthen to be be extended to Milford Haven as the demand is there.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Anyway I can understand why they have decided not to cut back this services as it is very well used by people traveling to Cardiff and beyond by passengers west of Swansea. I do hope though extra stock is brought in to enable the services which at present terminate at Carmarthen to be be extended to Milford Haven as the demand is there.

I'm sure nothing has been decided about electric rolling stock or the franchise map post-electrification.
The aborted GW franchise spec is in the bin and will come round again in 2016. The W&B franchise is up for respecification/reletting in 2018.
It's too early to be definite about anything except that the GW wires will go up and IEP will be coming in, both around 2017.
We don't even know the dates for Valleys/Swansea wiring yet.
DfT is known to want to "maximise utilisation of new electric routes".
Every DMU running under the wires is one less to cascade elsewhere.

 

[jonners03]

Latest ive heard from within the company is that 357' a will be introducted