Sorry - Another Boundary Zone 6 thread - I hope an interesting question!

[AshValePsngr]

First question, does an outboundary travelcard have the exact same validity as a boundary zone 6 ticket and a travelcard combination? Is it just the price that is different?

I think we all agree that X to Boundary Zone 6 + travel card are valid to london terminals via permitted routes. In a previous thread of mine (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=68320) I read that if you want to go to a zone 6 (or any zone) station you just calculate valid routes to that station.

The advice that I received from ATOC is as follows
An external Boundary Zones 6 ticket is valid as below:

It is only valid if used with a valid Travelcard/Freedom pass that covers zone 6.
It is valid to the first crossing of the outer boundary of Zone 6, using any permitted route (observing any fare related restriction) to any station within zones 1-6 that the associated Travelcard/Freedom pass is valid to.

My question is, when choosing your route, do you have to select your final destination to plan the route, or can you choose a route to a zone 6 station the train passes (but doesn't stop at), and continue on that train (within the zones) even though the route you took to where it terminates would not be valid.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/season_tickets.aspx#London_Travelcard_Seasons Seems to indicate that [in the case of a season ticket] you can travel via any permitted route to the boundary of zone 6, and then unlimited travel within the zones, so the above would seem to be permitted.

For travel from a station outside the London Travelcard area...If you start your commute from a station outside the Travelcard area, your Travelcard season ticket offers unlimited travel between your starting station and the Zone 6 boundary of the Travelcard area (on the route shown on your Travelcard), plus unlimited travel on National Rail, London Underground, Docklands Light Railway, Tramlink....within your chosen Zones.....

I just wanted to confirm that if the route you are travelling is valid for the zone 6 station you pass, but isn't valid for the london terminal the train finishes at, does the train have to stop at the zone 6 station? For example, if I purchase a single from my station to West Drayton (zone 6) the route I want to take is valid, but a single from my station to Paddington is not valid via the same route. If I purchase a travelcard does my journey to paddington via that route, and via West Drayton become valid because it is valid to the boundary zone 6 station, then I can travel on the same train within the zone after that?

I hope that is clear, sorry for the wall of text, and maybe not finding the answer in existing threads (if it exists).

 

[LexyBoy]

I hope that is clear, sorry for the wall of text, and maybe not finding the answer in existing threads (if it exists).

I don't think there is an answer! The response you've quoted from ATOC is the closest I've found.

It's worth noting that NRE will give itineraries via routes permitted for any inboundary station with a Travelcard fare to that station.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....My question is, when choosing your route, do you have to select your final destination to plan the route, or can you choose a route to a zone 6 station the train passes (but doesn't stop at), and continue on that train (within the zones) even though the route you took to where it terminates would not be valid....

The trouble with Travelcards is that the combination of one and a boundary extension is, strictly speaking, one ticket (like an excess fare) and as such doesn't need to meet the criteria of NRCoC Condition 19 (some might argue that it can't because it is, strictly speaking, one ticket).

I rather suspect that the only reason you would actually have difficulty is if:

(A) The route taken is a permitted route to the boundary station the train does not stop at, but is not a permitted route to a station beyond it that the train does stop at, and;

(B) The Guard/RPI thinks it's not a permitted route.

Now (A) might not be a killer on it's own, but (B) could be, so be careful.

 

[maniacmartin]

I hate Boundary Zone questions. They are strange tickets lacking public information about their validity or what they really are. I wouldn't do this on a day travelcard, but might be tempted on a weekly or longer.

 

[AshValePsngr]

Thanks for the responses so far.

The trouble with Travelcards is that the combination of one and a boundary extension is, strictly speaking, one ticket (like an excess fare) and as such doesn't need to meet the criteria of NRCoC Condition 19 (some might argue that it can't because it is, strictly speaking, one ticket)....

I wasn't so much thinking in terms of NRCOC 19 whether the train needed to stop at the zone 6 station because the outboundary travelcard is just (maybe) one ticket, and that isn't where the ticket(s) meet anyway. More that it could then be argued you are making two journeys. One to the zone 6 station, and one to wherever you then go on to. I think this is perfectly fine. If the train doesn't stop then you can't really argue it's two journeys, so then it gets murky what the rules are, and hence the question.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I believe the instructions supplied to software developers along with the electronic version of the Routeing Guide say that, for out-boundary travelcards, the Routeing Guide only applies to the portion of the journey outside the zones and the permitted routes are therefore those between the origin and the boundary station, i.e. the first station you pass through inside zones 1-6. An appropriate boundary station is any station at the boundary of zone 6 to which a permitted route can be traced from the origin station, staying wholly outside the zones.

I think we all agree that X to Boundary Zone 6 + travel card are valid to london terminals via permitted routes.

I used to believe this, but not any more. As above I believe the official answer is that the permitted routes to London are irrelevant; you need to pick a boundary station and find the permitted routes to it. I was quite surprised when I realised this was the official view, as it opens up a few anomalies.

 

[AshValePsngr]

I believe the instructions supplied to software developers along with the electronic version of the Routeing Guide say that, for out-boundary travelcards, the Routeing Guide only applies to the portion of the journey outside the zones and the permitted routes are therefore those between the origin and the boundary station, i.e. the first station you pass through inside zones 1-6. An appropriate boundary station is any station at the boundary of zone 6 to which a permitted route can be traced from the origin station, staying wholly outside the zones.

Would there be anything one could point to that is publicly available to support this conclusion? Even something official that isn't publicly available would be great! Is it a good idea to ask ATOC, or someone else about this, or better not to?

 

[AshValePsngr]

I believe the instructions supplied to software developers along with the electronic version of the Routeing Guide say that, for out-boundary travelcards, the Routeing Guide only applies to the portion of the journey outside the zones and the permitted routes are therefore those between the origin and the boundary station, i.e. the first station you pass through inside zones 1-6. An appropriate boundary station isany station at the boundary of zone 6 to which a permitted route can be traced from the origin station, staying wholly outside the zones.

Sorry to resurrect a slightly old thread, but I wanted to tie a few loose ends. So it seems fairly obvious to me that the red section quoted above means the train doesn't have to stop at that station, is this interpretation correct? Again, is there any public documentation to support this? It seems that even 'the manual' wouldn't contain this information?

 

[Paul Kelly]

It is certainly available in "official but non-public" documents, and ATOC have also clarified the situation in correspondence with someone; I can't remember the exact details, but yorkie quoted it here: http://railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1587704&postcount=69

 

[zoneking]

I have had a reply to a query relating to this (an outboundary season travelcard, not a combination)

"To ensure that we provide accurate information I have sought advice from our Fares Strategy Manager, who has in turn contacted the Association of Train Operating companies (ATOC). I have now received a reply and can confirm that our website is correct and travel via Y is permitted.

The reason for the confusion is that zonal destinations are not recognised by the Routeing Guide. The validity via a given route can only be determined by a customer's intended origin and destination, which is taken on trust. So, as your destination (X) is within the zones and your ticket doesn't specify that it's not valid via Y, your ticket is valid for this journey".

 

[Paul Kelly]

The reason for the confusion is that zonal destinations are not recognised by the Routeing Guide. The validity via a given route can only be determined by a customer's intended origin and destination, which is taken on trust. So, as your destination (X) is within the zones and your ticket doesn't specify that it's not valid via Y, your ticket is valid for this journey".

Interesting; that conflicts with the advice ATOC give to developers of booking engines. They say that the first station stopped at or passed within the zones should be taken as the destination station to which permitted routes are calculated.

Since, once inside the zones, unlimited further travel is permitted, it makes sense (to me anyway) that the passenger's "actual destination" is irrelevant - how do you define the point at which travel switches from the out-boundary to the in-boundary part of the Travelcard? At the boundary of the zones seems the most obvious interpretation - but since the routeing guide is a point-to-point document only, choosing the first station inside the zones is the closest approximation that can be made.

 

[Harlesden]

Does anyone think my way is dumb or a good way of avoiding potential conflict?
Using the FCC GN route between Finsbury Park and Hertford North as an example.
Assuming I have a Z2-6 weekly, I would arrive at Finsbury Park in plenty of time to purchase a NR ticket Crews Hill (last station in Zone 6) to Hertford North.
Two separate tickets. No hassle

 

[maniacmartin]

That is fine, but for holders of Day travelcards, they can't use 19C so don't have that option