Should Wrexham redouble now occur following prison approval?

[Green Lane]

Real figure for central is much higher its well known that conductors on the Bidston line issue tickets to general even though folkf go down to central which is much better for town centre.

Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know why they do that?

The reason I ask is because the other week, I specifically asked for a return to Wrexham Central, but was issued with a return to Wrexham General.

 

[Squaddie]

Real figure for central is much higher its well known that conductors on the Bidston line issue tickets to general even though folk go down to central which is much better for town centre.

But of course that means that the true footfall figure for Wrexham General is smaller by an equivalent amount, which rather undermines the argument that it needs more trains to Chester and Shrewsbury.

 

[merlodlliw]

The redoubling of the six miles of track between Cockett West Junction and Duffryn West Junction was planned before the proposed Wrexham redoubling and has removed a serious bottleneck west of Swansea. It is not as if only one service uses it. All destinations, west of Swansea, have to traverse this section of line and anyone who has used the line in recent years will have experienced many delays whilst waiting for the single line section to clear. In addition, the viaduct across the Llwchwr estuary was in a parlous state and needed to be replaced. The work, of course, meant that the disused platform at Gowerton needed to be reinstated. There has long been a need to increase the number of trains calling at Gowerton because, as has been pointed out elsewhere, it is not simply a ‘village station’ but serves as a railhead for a considerable catchment area. 95 extra trains a week might sound a lot but, when you break it down, it amounts to about six additional trains a day in each direction. These ‘additional’ services would have previously run through without stopping because of the constraints on timekeeping caused by the single line section.
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I have just had a look at the passenger figures for Gowerton. These have risen from 13,768 in 2006/07 to 77,854 in 2011/12. The footfall will, almost certainly, continue to increase thanks to the improved service now on offer. This compares with the 33,104 using Wrexham Central. Not bad for a village station.

The usual caveats apply; not comparing like with like etc

Thanks for the response,I appreciate the trains were already running through the station, Network Rail had to pay for the replacement of the rotting Loughor viaduct over the river at a cost of £20m,dual lines through Gowerton were probably hinted at years ago,like Wrexham,however it seems both the new viaduct & dual lines from planning to finish were completed within a three year timescale whereas NR took six years to plan & cost the Wrexham redouble,far too long NR should have been chased out of its anytime will do comfort zone in my opinion.
WG contribution was £28m for the dualing & work on Gowerton Station,I will be the first to agree if the equipment is on hand at the Viaduct to dual,go ahead at the same time.As for pax footfall at Gowerton,thanks for the explanation,it will automatically raise the numbers as extra services always appear to.Wrexham is of course a different area badly in need of extra capacity to travel North,NR phase one up here is almost completed between Shropshire and Bersham with new tracks & associated work by Amco rail, Phase two work was to commence between Wrexham and Saltney in October(NR letter to stakeholders),alas it looks like the funds for this have disappeared down a black hole,it will be interesting to hear what the Minister says when she is challenged & questioned in the Senedd later this month.

 

[paul1609]

A train leaving Wrexham would never make 75mph by Wrexham North Junction approaching the single line. 50 probably at most.
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The single line has some serious curves mid section that would have to be completely realigned/reprofiled to increase the line speed to 75mph
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3 miles is not the distance you need to brake comfortably in step 2, no more than a mile would be well sufficient. What is your source on "6 miles to reach 90mph"?

Im not suggesting that you need 3 miles to stop from 90 mph but assuming you build in some pathing allowance I would suggest it would be normal practise to deacclerate from about 3 miles out. 6miles is a calculation based on 260kw/38 tonnes per vehicle and an informed estimate of resistance. Acceleration would seem to fall steeply after 70 mph, if you have any better experiences I'd be interested to hear them.

 

[PHILIPE]

I think somebody asked where the ring-fenced money had gone under the FOI Act but do not know the outcome. Perhaps they used it for the uneccessary art work at Cardiff Wales Airport.

 

[Squaddie]

I think somebody asked where the ring-fenced money had gone under the FOI Act but do not know the outcome. Perhaps they used it for the uneccessary art work at Cardiff Wales Airport.

Why do you think it's unnecessary? Making airports attractive and pleasant is important when trying to attract business, and the total cost of the artwork was only half a million.

The number of passengers using the airport during the last three months is up by about 8% over the same period last year, which is welcome news.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know why they do that?

The reason I ask is because the other week, I specifically asked for a return to Wrexham Central, but was issued with a return to Wrexham General.

Central use to be more expensive than general and the conductors would let people ride cheaper I think it's a hangover from that old habits die hard.
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Why do you think it's unnecessary? Making airports attractive and pleasant is important when trying to attract business, and the total cost of the artwork was only half a million.

The number of passengers using the airport during the last three months is up by about 8% over the same period last year, which is welcome news.

Is this the same small airport which a which? Survey rated as being the poorest in the uk?

 

[Green Lane]

Central use to be more expensive than general and the conductors would let people ride cheaper I think it's a hangover from that old habits die hard.

Thank you for the reply!

 

[Squaddie]

Is this the same small airport which a which? Survey rated as being the poorest in the uk?

Quite possibly; I don't read Which?. All the more reason to try to improve the airport experience and attract more passengers. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't, but at least the Welsh Government is trying.

 

[Llanigraham]

Quite possibly; I don't read Which?. All the more reason to try to improve the airport experience and attract more passengers. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't, but at least the Welsh Government is trying.

Squaddie, I'd give up over the Airport. There are a few here who would criticise it if it were the best in the UK!!


Re the art work, this was ordered by the previous owners I presume so the order would have to be continued or a compensation payment made to get out of the contract. Better to have the art in that case.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Squaddie, I'd give up over the Airport. There are a few here who would criticise it if it were the best in the UK!!


Re the art work, this was ordered by the previous owners I presume so the order would have to be continued or a compensation payment made to get out of the contract. Better to have the art in that case.

I saw one of the new express airport coaches arrive at Cardiff bus station on Tuesday load of one passenger.

 

[merlodlliw]

I saw one of the new express airport coaches arrive at Cardiff bus station on Tuesday load of one passenger.

Thats an interesting observation,so the demand exists for extra WG financed services

Bob

 

[TDK]

Im not suggesting that you need 3 miles to stop from 90 mph but assuming you build in some pathing allowance I would suggest it would be normal practise to deacclerate from about 3 miles out. 6miles is a calculation based on 260kw/38 tonnes per vehicle and an informed estimate of resistance. Acceleration would seem to fall steeply after 70 mph, if you have any better experiences I'd be interested to hear them.

There are too many factors to accurately calculate the acceleration of a 158, Weight of fuel, loadings, railhead condition, driving styles etc. I think your suggestion is inaccurate for timings because if every train started braking at 3 miles out you would certainly never keep to the timings.

 

[edwin_m]

Based on actual recordings a 170 needs about 9km to get to 90mph on level track. However it is up to 80mph in about 5.5km. A 158 is pretty similar apart from having a lower maximum speed.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Thank you for the reply!

Unrecorded may be another factor see

http://www.wrexham.com/news/court-threat-for-teenager-over-60p-gwersyllt-train-fare-36232.html

Conductor only short space between stops.

 

[merlodlliw]

Unrecorded may be another factor see

http://www.wrexham.com/news/court-threat-for-teenager-over-60p-gwersyllt-train-fare-36232.html

Conductor only short space between stops.

had not noticed this Gareth when I put the story up on the main thread general discussion.

 

[anthony263]

Thats an interesting observation,so the demand exists for extra WG financed services

Bob

Keep an eye on things happening in the vale of glamorgan area.

The X91 operated by Cardiff bus no longer serves the airport and instead runs as an express service to Llantwit Major via Barry every 2 hours.

Bridgend council are looking at subsidising services V1/V2 Bridgend - Cowbridge - Llantwit Major on their own where as before it was done jointly with the vale of glamorgan council.

Service 90 Barry - Culverhouse cross only escaped withdrawal because it is financed by Marks & Spencers under a section 106 agreement

 

[Bevan Price]

A train leaving Wrexham would never make 75mph by Wrexham North Junction approaching the single line. 50 probably at most.
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The single line has some serious curves mid section that would have to be completely realigned/reprofiled to increase the line speed to 75mph
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


3 miles is not the distance you need to brake comfortably in step 2, no more than a mile would be well sufficient. What is your source on "6 miles to reach 90mph"?

The latter is probably not too far from reality. I was on a Class 158 from Wilmslow, which reached 88 mph by Chelford, 4.74 miles from Wilmslow. Add about another ¼ to ½ mile to get up to 90 mph, and you are talking about over 5 miles to attain 90 mph on almost level track. (For comparisn, on the same route, Class 175 can attain 90 mph within about 3 to 3½ miles. )

 

[paul1609]

There are too many factors to accurately calculate the acceleration of a 158, Weight of fuel, loadings, railhead condition, driving styles etc. I think your suggestion is inaccurate for timings because if every train started braking at 3 miles out you would certainly never keep to the timings.

To be honest my calculation came out at 5.79 miles and that was using fairly conservative estimates of vehicle weight. Driving style doesnt come in to as Im assuming maximum power is applied from the start.
Fuel accounts for less than 4% of vehicle mass. Im also assuming that all of the engine output is available to the wheels. I'm assuming that railhead conditions are perfect.
Im not assuming that the braking occurs at 3 miles out but Im not assuming that you go from full power to a step 2 brake application either as I dont think this would be used in practise.
Can anybody tell me what the line speed from Saltney Junction to Chester is?
However you look at it the earlier claim that increasing the line speed to 90 mph would increase capacity by 25 % is clearly incorrect, It would only have a very small effect if any.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Can anybody tell me what the line speed from Saltney Junction to Chester is?
However you look at it the earlier claim that increasing the line speed to 90 mph would increase capacity by 25 % is clearly incorrect, It would only have a very small effect if any.

It goes 50 at Chester South, 60 at Roodee Jn and then 75 just before Saltney Jn (not relevant for the Wrexham route which is 50).
I came up with the 25% figure. Basic maths.
You'd better tell NR not to bother with any other 60-90mph speed increases then, if they don't have any effect.
Such as Shrewsbury-Wrexham, or Ordsall Lane-Edge Hill.

 

[merlodlliw]

It goes 50 at Chester South, 60 at Roodee Jn and then 75 just before Saltney Jn (not relevant for the Wrexham route which is 50).
I came up with the 25% figure. Basic maths.
You'd better tell NR not to bother with any other 60-90mph speed increases then, if they don't have any effect.
Such as Shrewsbury-Wrexham, or Ordsall Lane-Edge Hill.

Good Evening LNW-GW Joint.
Any increase in line speed due to Amco rail replacing track between Salop & Wrexham will be lost at Wrexham if the line remains single to Saltney,it only takes a late freight or or late running ATW 150/158/175 to cancel any benefit in time saved but it will be a better ride on the plus side, no redouble,no extra services as Gowerton as proven.

Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

The latter is probably not too far from reality. I was on a Class 158 from Wilmslow, which reached 88 mph by Chelford, 4.74 miles from Wilmslow. Add about another ¼ to ½ mile to get up to 90 mph, and you are talking about over 5 miles to attain 90 mph on almost level track. (For comparisn, on the same route, Class 175 can attain 90 mph within about 3 to 3½ miles. )

There's a fairly decent slope down Gresford Bank, so accelaration northbound might be better? The southbound route is very flat until Gresford.

 

[TDK]

There's a fairly decent slope down Gresford Bank, so accelaration northbound might be better? The southbound route is very flat until Gresford.

There are some very decent curves as well!
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Can anybody tell me what the line speed from Saltney Junction to Chester is?

At Saltney Junction the speed is 75mph once on the main line (50mph off the junction from the single line), it drops to 50mph ar Roodee Junctions and then down to 30mph once through the tunnels, depending on platform the speed is 30mph or 20mph.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Any increase in line speed due to Amco rail replacing track between Salop & Wrexham will be lost at Wrexham if the line remains single to Saltney,it only takes a late freight or or late running ATW 150/158/175 to cancel any benefit in time saved but it will be a better ride on the plus side, no redouble,no extra services as Gowerton as proven.

Bob

You cannot judge a railways efficiency by taking into account late running services Bob. Do lets say you redouble the line? The only gain is possible one extra service each way per hour - 2 hours. Where will these trains go? Birmingham is out of the question, Cardiff is because you will most likely not get a path through? In the other direction Holyhead is out, Manchester is out and also so is Crewe! Maybe cancel the redoubling and have a fast shuttle from Wrexham to Shrewsbury ahead of a stopper to make a connection to Cardiff or Birmingham? This will take advantage of the increased line speed South of Wrexham and save loads of money redoubling the track.

It sounds good to redouble the line but only if it was redoubled in it's entirety without the passing loop from the new Gresford Junction to the new Rossett Junction because as you say all you need is a late running train to scupper the ideas.
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The latter is probably not too far from reality. I was on a Class 158 from Wilmslow, which reached 88 mph by Chelford, 4.74 miles from Wilmslow. Add about another ¼ to ½ mile to get up to 90 mph, and you are talking about over 5 miles to attain 90 mph on almost level track. (For comparisn, on the same route, Class 175 can attain 90 mph within about 3 to 3½ miles. )

I drove a 4 car 158 yesterday and reached 90mph at roughly the same location I would on a 3 car 175. I had a 4 car formation last week that never got to 90mph in fact only just got to 80mph. There are just too many variables to accurately calculate the acceleration of a unit as every unit is totally different, you get what we call a good set (acceleration) and a poor set, some of the 158's are very poor accelerating and you would not believe the difference.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Where will these trains go? Birmingham is out of the question, Cardiff is because you will most likely not get a path through? In the other direction Holyhead is out, Manchester is out and also so is Crewe!

The additional service I think would work best is to extend the proposed 2nd hourly Manchester-Chester to Wrexham.
This would connect Wrexham better to the regional job and leisure markets.
You might possibly run it to Liverpool via Runcorn if the Halton Curve existed, but the tag-on to Manchester will give the best business case as it would need less extra stock.
There's no need for extra frequencies in other directions except to London occasionally, as First/VT proposed in their WCML bids.
The "natural" route would be Wrexham-Chester-Birkenhead (Rock Ferry or Central) but I don't think that is practical any more with DMUs.
Might be a different story with electrification.

 

[merlodlliw]

You cannot judge a railways efficiency by taking into account late running services Bob. Do lets say you redouble the line? The only gain is possible one extra service each way per hour - 2 hours. Where will these trains go? Birmingham is out of the question, Cardiff is because you will most likely not get a path through? In the other direction Holyhead is out, Manchester is out and also so is Crewe! Maybe cancel the redoubling and have a fast shuttle from Wrexham to Shrewsbury ahead of a stopper to make a connection to Cardiff or Birmingham? This will take advantage of the increased line speed South of Wrexham and save loads of money redoubling the track.

It sounds good to redouble the line but only if it was redoubled in it's entirety without the passing loop from the new Gresford Junction to the new Rossett Junction because as you say all you need is a late running train to scupper the ideas. quote TDK

I appreciate your feeling over the redouble,if its not done now with the supposed funding of £32M ring fenced, it wont occur for years and will loose any chance of extra services by the new toc when ATW goes or reapplies for the franchise in five years, the route North in my opinion is where the custom is,the North East Wales taskforce funded by WG want the line redoubled as does Taith both give evidence for new custom. I would hate the funding to be lost on roads or a political black hole.
I have no idea what it as cost NR to work out the redouble over the past six years,many £ hundreds of thousands, but now it is ready to go, lets not waste it for operational reasons alone.



Bob

 

[The Informer]

Word is somebody in the WG said summat like this...

"Hey whats this 30 odd million quid doin sitting here doing bugger all?"...

"Its for NR, its been sitting here for 6 years whilst they make a decision on the re-double"...

"Stuff them, we cant wait any longer, were buying an airport with it in the morning!!!"

 

[anthony263]

Word is somebody in the WG said summat like this...

"Hey whats this 30 odd million quid doin sitting here doing bugger all?"...

"Its for NR, its been sitting here for 6 years whilst they make a decision on the re-double"...

"Stuff them, we cant wait any longer, were buying an airport with it in the morning!!!"

Why are we not surprised?

Truth be told I think everyone one of us guessed this is what had happened especially since the WG suddently found £50 million to buy Cardiff Airport.