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Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

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Class377/5

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How reilable is open train times for dates in the new timetable December 2013 onwards) ? When I looked earlier tonight, it was showing full weekday services operating on 25 and 26 December 2013.

It will be showing the normal timetable as the internal railway system does. Only later does the changes get inputted. So or example a bank holiday will contain the base timetable which is later cancelled with new trains added, original cancelled trains are not removed.

So in this sense it won't show all the engineering works ahead properly yet.
 
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RichmondCommu

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I counted 10 on the Up (didn't do the full circuit today).
Not sure how they will fix the supports on the Up (north) side in the main part of the Olive Mount cutting, which is very close to the running line.
Maybe they will cantilever over both tracks from the south side where there is a lot more room (where there used to be two more tracks).
In Lime St cutting around 1960 they excavated the cutting walls and fastened portal structures in them directly, saving a lot of steelwork.
There's another (shorter) sheer sandstone cutting like that near Thatto Heath on the Wigan line.

But wouldn't this be a barrier to any capacity improvements in the future?
 

Dunc108

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How long is the 4 tracking? is it just Huyton - Roby or all the way to Broad Green? Wavertree Technology Park could accomodate 2 extra platforms..
 

LNW-GW Joint

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But wouldn't this be a barrier to any capacity improvements in the future?

Well they could span the whole 4-track solum as in Lime St cutting, but I imagine this would be very heavy on the steel costs.
The same applies really to the entire route up to Roby where the new 4-tracking will start (except the bit where the M62 elbows in at Broad Green).
It should soon become apparent as they move eastwards from Wavertree.

No provision seems to have been made for the new Port Salford branch, although having said that, there was some engineering activity this week on the south side of the line west of the M60 bridge.
That also used to be 4-track (or maybe sidings) in the distant past.
If they are going to put the junction in, the best time is now!
 

Bevan Price

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How long is the 4 tracking? is it just Huyton - Roby or all the way to Broad Green? Wavertree Technology Park could accomodate 2 extra platforms..

Eventually, 4 tracks from Huyton to a location between Roby & Broad Green. Unfortunately 4 tracks through Broad Green is impossible, due to a connecting road adjacent to the M62, which occupies part of the former fast lines trackbed.

There might (just) be space for through lines on either side of the current platforms at Wavertree Technology Park, but I suspect there might not be enough space to put platforms on them.
 

Wavertreelad

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Eventually, 4 tracks from Huyton to a location between Roby & Broad Green. Unfortunately 4 tracks through Broad Green is impossible, due to a connecting road adjacent to the M62, which occupies part of the former fast lines trackbed.

There might (just) be space for through lines on either side of the current platforms at Wavertree Technology Park, but I suspect there might not be enough space to put platforms on them.

There is probably sufficient space to put a third track through Wavertree Tech Park station on the south side of the station which would be at platform level. However, on the north side the ramp which runs from Olive Mount junction to the point where a bridge that used to cross the Chat Moss lines to a ramp under which the London lines now pass would prevent this. This route was used by freight trains up to the late 1960s accessing the extensive sidings and tunnels to the south side of Edge Hill station as well as the Gridiron with a reversal at Edge Hill. The route avoided slow moving freight trains crossing the fast London and Manchester lines at the eastern end of Edge Hill station. The route apart from the bridge was preserved for planned extensions to the Merseyrail network using the existing tunnels and new links near the city centre. At the moment the route is blocked by the road bridge providing access to the Tech Park, but could be removed if alternative access was gained from Rathbone Road. Alternatively, the ramp could be excavated to allow a fourth track on the north side of the station to be put in place at platform level which would allow four tracking to be restored but a lack of funds to build the M62 on the original straight alignment into Liverpool resulted in the present ridiculous layout. It would require some extensive engineering work to the bridge and the present station facilities to be demolished to restore four tracking throughout to Huyton.
 

Dunc108

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Eventually, 4 tracks from Huyton to a location between Roby & Broad Green. Unfortunately 4 tracks through Broad Green is impossible, due to a connecting road adjacent to the M62, which occupies part of the former fast lines trackbed.

There might (just) be space for through lines on either side of the current platforms at Wavertree Technology Park, but I suspect there might not be enough space to put platforms on them.

Yes its a shame about the road at Broad Green which will keep it as a permanent bottleneck, otherwise you could have 4-tracked all the way to Edge Hill!
 
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Re Port Salford,you refer to 4 track at M60 location that is where a tempory 2 track diversion was laid alongside construction of M60 bdg 1980ish and the ballast used for track still in situ.
Well they could span the whole 4-track solum as in Lime St cutting, but I imagine this would be very heavy on the steel costs.
The same applies really to the entire route up to Roby where the new 4-tracking will start (except the bit where the M62 elbows in at Broad Green).
It should soon become apparent as they move eastwards from Wavertree.

No provision seems to have been made for the new Port Salford branch, although having said that, there was some engineering activity this week on the south side of the line west of the M60 bridge.
That also used to be 4-track (or maybe sidings) in the distant past.
If they are going to put the junction in, the best time is now!
 

WatcherZero

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Few details of the TPE Scotland impact on Bolton, and impact of the additional 185 Liverpool-Newcastle services to share, tbh these details would do well in several different threads but I only have the energy to type them once.

Bolton

Firstly Northern has tried and failed to source additional diesel units to strengthen the Bolton corridor, its come up with a plan to shift in a little extra capacity from May 2014 through timetable changes and rearranging diagrams from the May 2014 timetable change, its limited in the formations it can use for the strengthening because of platform length limitations elsewhere limiting the potential unit combinations. This should add enough capacity to mitigate the final switchover of Bolton to Wigan services in May 2014 though it wont be enough to cover the initial Dec 13 switches.

In the 3 hour morning peak on the Bolton corridor from Dec 2013 there will be 4,201 seats, -362 or 8% reduction rising to 4,171 a 9% reduction by May 2014. There is a similar reduction percentage in the high peak.

In the 3 hour evening peak from Dec 2013 there will be a 5,724 -181 3% reduction rising to 9% from mid feb 2014 and 13% from May 2014. High peak services will be unaffected with initially a 10% increase in capacity from Dec 2013 falling to 0% from mid Feb 2014 onwards.

From Manchester to Preston via Wigan there will initially be 362 more seats in the morning peak a 31% increase rising to 36% from mid feb 2014, in the high peak there will be a 45% increase from Dec 2013 rising to 52% from mid feb.

In the evening peak there will be a 13% increase from Dec, rising to 15% in mid feb and 31% from May 2014, in the evening high peak there will be no change because the 17:00 Manchester Airport to Glasgow wont call at Wigan because TPE anticipates it would be otherwise packed with Wigan passengers not leaving enough room for Scottish passengers.

All Friday and Sunday services will be formed of either a double 185 or a double 350.

The effect the TPE service change will have on Manchester Victoria to Wigan Wallgate via Bolton passengers is currently unknown, they dont know how many will switch to using Piccadilly to North Western or how many new passengers would be attracted by the new service and decreased journey times.


The service strengthenings Northern will put on to tackle the Bolton reductions are:

New 05:40 Blackpool – Manchester replacing the TPE 05:39 Blackpool to Manchester Airport
17:23 from Preston to Hazel Grove extended to cover the previous TPE 17:45 from Preston via Bolton
15:33 Hazel Grove – Preston extended to cover the previous 16:00 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh
New 06:50 Manchester - Preston to cover the previous 07:25 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh via Bolton


Transpennine

From May 2014 there will be a fifth hourly TPE train between Manchester and Leeds including the Liverpool to Newcastle service being diverted via Victoria. This is a 22% increase in services and a 34% increase in seat capacity. Anticipated time savings are


Manchester - Liverpool 46 minutes reduced to 31 a 15 min saving
Manchester - Leeds 55 minutes reduced to 48 a 7 min saving
Liverpool - Leeds 107 minutes reduced to 82 a 25 min saving
Liverpool - Newcastle 210 minutes reduced to 173 a 37 min saving

With the exception of the Manchester – Rochdale and West Yorkshire and Manchester – Ashton – Stalybridge and Huddersfield corridors Northern has managed to fit in these extra services with only minor timetable and clockface adjustments though origin and destination terminal may change. This process is still ongoing and should be finished in October.

The positives from the timetable change are that the Manchester Victoria to Huddersfield service will be linked to the existing Blackpool to Manchester to give a through service. The Huddersfield service to Victoria will be linked through to Wigan Wallgate (Is that the first time a Wallgate service will cross the Pennines in modern times even if it is one way?). Improved connectivity between Ashton, Salford and Stalybridge and the Liverpool-Newcastle service will enjoy good connection times at Victoria including a 25 minute time saving from Ashton to Liverpool from 1hr25 to 55m.

The main issue identified by TfGM is that the Newcastle to Liverpool service takes the path used by the recent extension of Liverpool-Victoria services to Stalybridge funded by TfGM and theres no alternate path to continue it west of Victoria, reducing Victoria-Stalybridge frequency back down to 2tph from 3tph.


All these connections by Northern will form part of the base timetable and will not require additional PTE subsidy. Four options have been drawn up on how to address the frequency reduction between Victoria and Stalybridge though no final decision has yet been made.

Option 1: Continue the Liverpool-Manchester local service through to Stalybridge. As the existing Stalybridge to Kirby service enjoys good Stalybridge to Salford passenger numbers and revenue and they both arrive at the same time its prefered for the Kirby connection to continue.

Option 2: Extend Southport-Manchester service to Stalybridge. Northern was asked to investigate this option and found that there was insufficent dwell time at Victoria to provide a reliable service, as the Southport line already has pretty poor punctuality it was thought this might make a bad service even worse.

Option 3: Have the TPE services call at Ashton or Stalybridge. TPE was asked to consider this and put forward several concerns. That it wouldnt attract enough passengers, that it would slow the service, that it might introduce delays, that it could only call at one not both, that TPE passengers could already change for Stalybridget at Victoria and finally that it might attract too many short distance passengers to a long distance service.

Option 4: Manchester Victoria-Ashton/Stalybridge shuttle. When asked to investigate continuing services westwards from Victoria to Stalybridge Northern was unable to find a path for an existing service however they suggest a new shuttle service that could run between the two but be unable to continue east of Victoria. This would be more expensive than a addon to an existing service as it would require a additional crew and set as well as generating unnecsary mileage. The connection times would also be worse than the existing service. Northern is unable to guarentee that it would have a free train crew and be able to source a unit to operate the service from May 2014.

Based on the above option 4 is the only workable option however with the costs involved and poor connections it would have to be extremely good value for money to justify subsidising it. Northern and TfGM will continue to work together to work up a price for the service though they arent confident they will choose to take up the option.


Calder Valley
As you may recall Northern was proposing to drop station calls from the line to accomdate the extra TPE service. Its not a very popular plan among users and local politicians. Northern have therefore bowed to pressure and adjusted their proposal introducing a skip-stop service. Its virtually a complete recast of the timetable for services on the line but does preserve if not increase services with the exception of Moston and some peak calls at Castleton. Its a big improvement for Littleborough and Smithy Bridge who would go from 20/40 splits to a 2tph even split.

Smithy Bridge and Littleborough would enjoy a hourly service through Salford and on to Wigan via Atherton until early evening however apart from a single train in the morning and evening peaks lose the direct connections to Rochdale, Castleton, Mills Hill and Bolton.

The original proposals there would no longer be through trains from Mills Hill, Castleton, Smithy Bridge and Littleborough to Halifax and Bradford forcing a change in Todmorden. TfGM objected particuarly about the loss of peak trains and Northern as accomdated the objection with add additional calls at Smithy Bridge, Walsden and Littleborough for commuter flows to and from Bradford. It is proposed that the 06:16 and 07:16 from Manchester Victoria will depart at 06:12 and 07:12, and call at all three stations, providing arrivals into Bradford at 07:20 and 08:20. The 16:51 and 17:51 from Leeds (17:14 and 18:14 from Bradford Interchange) will also call at all three stations.


Todmorden


The Todmorden Curve will be completed in February, Lancashire CC has agreed to TfGM request that the new Blackburn, Accrington, Burnley, Manchester via Todmorden service will call at Littleborough offpeak however there wont be any DMU available to operate these extra services through to Blackburn until Dec 2014. So from May 2014 until Dec 2014 as an interim measure the Kirkby-Wigan-Rochdale service will be extended to Todmorden and then reverse on the curve, in addition the two evening Victoria-Rochdale services will be extended to Todmorden. From Dec 2014 the Manchester-Todmorden service would be extended to Blackburn though it isnt clear if that would continue as an extension of Wigan/Kirkby-Rochdale or an entirely new service between Manchester and Blackburn.


(Sorry if I made any typos, I dont know the East lancashire area that well)
 
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snowball

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Re Port Salford,you refer to 4 track at M60 location that is where a tempory 2 track diversion was laid alongside construction of M60 bdg 1980ish and the ballast used for track still in situ.

I assume that by "bdg" you mean bridge!

This section of the M60, then known as M62, opened in 1960. The original bridge carrying the Chat Moss line over the motorway was 4 tracks wide. By the time the motorway (by then known as M63) was widened in the 1980s, only 2 tracks were in use, which made it possible to build a new longer 2-track bridge which I think was more or less within the original footprint, but as you say a temporary diversion was required.
 
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Welshman

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The Huddersfield service to Victoria will be linked through to Wigan Wallgate (Is that the first time a Wallgate service will cross the Pennines in modern times even if it is one way?).

Calder Valley
As you may recall Northern was proposing to drop station calls from the line to accomdate the extra TPE service.

A very informative post, and thank you for taking the time to submit it.

Just a couple of responses, if I may:-

i]I wonder why Northern proposed dropping station calls on the Calder Valley line to accommodate the extra TPE service?
I thought that extra service from Liverpool Lime St to Newcastle via Manchester Victoria would then go through Stalybridge & Huddersfield and so not affect the Calder Valley services.

ii]Regarding cross-Pennine services to Wigan Wallgate, I suppose it depends on how you define "modern times"
I well remember through expresses from Leeds, Bradford, and the Calder Valley to Manchester Victoria, Wigan Wallgate, Liverpool Exchange and Southport. However, these ceased around 1970! :)
 

WatcherZero

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Timing issues from only slightly adjusting services to create the path I think, in their second plan they more heavily adjusted services which has a lower actual impact on the passenger.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....From May 2014 there will be a fifth hourly TPE train between Manchester and Leeds.....This is a 22% increase in services....

22%? Presumably that figure accounts for early morning and late evening services?

....Liverpool - Leeds 107 minutes reduced to 82 a 25 min saving
Liverpool - Newcastle 210 minutes reduced to 173 a 37 min saving...

Presumably the 12 extra minutes are because people won't have to change trains anymore?

....The main identified by TfGM is that the Newcastle to Liverpool service takes the path used by the recent extension of Liverpool-Victoria services to Stalybridge funded by TfGM....

Recent? It's been that way since before I moved to Manchester, nearly a decade ago!
 

WatcherZero

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Sorry, should have been clearer on that, in the Dec 2012 timetable change they funded the extension of Kirkby/Southport Victoria services to Stalybridge to increase the frequency from 2tph to 3tph including the direct liverpool service and a shuttle to catch the other liverpool service.

From May 2014 the Kirby - Manchester and Liverpool Manchester arrive at Manchester Victoria on different routes but at the same time. Therefore only one of these services can go forward to Ashton and Stalybridge and the shuttle becomes redudant. The patronage data supports the Kirby service as being the one to continue but that drops the off peak frequency down to 2tph basically undoing the work of the recent PTE sponsored frequency boost.

The 22% service boost is a rise from 126 to 154 services per weekday and an increase in seats of 15,502 to 20,731.

Extra 12 minute journey time saving to Newcastle is about the same time as the 13 minute interchange time in York on the fastest service yes.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Sorry, should have been clearer on that, in the Dec 2012 timetable change they funded the extension of Kirkby/Southport Victoria services to Stalybridge to increase the frequency from 2tph to 3tph including the direct liverpool service and a shuttle to catch the other liverpool service.

From May 2014 the Kirby - Manchester and Liverpool Manchester arrive at Manchester Victoria on different routes but at the same time. Therefore only one of these services can go forward to Ashton and Stalybridge and the shuttle becomes redudant. The patronage data supports the Kirby service as being the one to continue but that drops the off peak frequency down to 2tph basically undoing the work of the recent PTE sponsored frequency boost.

Messy though this is, I should think it will only be for a short time until the Victoria-Stalybridge stretch is wired.
I should imagine we will then see 2tph Liverpool-Stalybridge stoppers, and no DMUs.
EMUs might also run through from the Bolton direction when that line is wired.
Then it'll change again when the Northern Hub is finished.
 
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8A Rail

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Four tracking is effectively from the 4¾ mile post to Huyton Jn at 6 miles.
Which is basically 400yds away from Roby Station / Bridge heading towards Broadgreen. So basically most of the embankment to Broadgreen remains two track.

Check these links if they have not been posted before:
http://moderngov.merseytravel.uk.ne...Roby and Huyton stations expansion enc. 1.pdf
http://moderngov.merseytravel.uk.ne...te for Roby and Huyton stations expansion.pdf

As for taking it beyond Broadgreen - just say its impossible not unless you wish to create major traffic problems for a considerable period of time and more importantly the sheer cost of the project to widen the section under the M62 motorway approaching the Rocket. Just not feasible sadly. Likewise, Wavertee Technology Park is not really on either for either side of the station. Some one mentioned the south side of the station and putting a track there - again not wthout major works to reduce the embankment which supports the Techonlogy Buildings built on ex Edge Hill MPD site = probably need considerable supporting walls for starters.
 

snowball

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Those links talk about adding a third track as part of the electrification, and then a fourth track later as part of the Northern Hub. I think I've read somewhere that it's now planned to add both new tracks as part of the electrification. Which certainly seems more compatible with common sense.
 

OxtedL

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Those links talk about adding a third track as part of the electrification, and then a fourth track later as part of the Northern Hub. I think I've read somewhere that it's now planned to add both new tracks as part of the electrification. Which certainly seems more compatible with common sense.
They seem to date from July 2012 (and have indeed been posted in this thread before).

Doing it incrementally is sensible enough if you want the extra capacity but don't have the funding/land to do it all at once. It can clearly be seen that the 2 phase approach was designed in such a way that you weren't really undoing much of the stage 1 work at stage 2, which was going to essentially be just throwing in an extra track and a touch more pointwork.

Thinking may well have moved on since then, and as you say doing it all at once if possible is also sensible, and is consistent with the week long blockade that appears to be planned for July 2014.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Did any of those Yorkshire services take the cut-off line south of Hindley to avoid the need for accessing Wigan Wallgate station ?

They certainly did, several a day. My sole journey that way at the time took the by-pass route and was non-stop Victoria-Liverpool Exchange (having started at York).
From what I remember the "cut off" was the main line and Wallgate was effectively a loop off it.
This was a similar setup to that at Warrington Central.
Sadly the present route through Warrington still includes 50mph speed limits round the old junction curves (now plain-lined) at Padgate and Penketh.
 

Welshman

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I can just remember one train which used the Pemberton loop. This was the 6.30pm [as it was then] from Liverpool Exchange to Leeds Central, and I used it several times after it had been turned-over to diesel units in 1962. On one occasion, the driver recognised me, and invited me to sit in the cab with him, so that journey has special memories for me!

It used to arrive in Manchester Victoria about 7.15pm - a very creditable time of 45 minutes from Liverpool via the ex L&Y route, which was the longest of the three through routes then available.
 
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DJH1971

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Whilst travelling into Manchester this morning, I noticed some recent excavation work between Salford Central and Victoria station, which may well be for foundation work.

There is still a small gap in the OHL at Glazebury though.
 

Wavertreelad

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Which is basically 400yds away from Roby Station / Bridge heading towards Broadgreen. So basically most of the embankment to Broadgreen remains two track.

Check these links if they have not been posted before:
http://moderngov.merseytravel.uk.ne...Roby and Huyton stations expansion enc. 1.pdf
http://moderngov.merseytravel.uk.ne...te for Roby and Huyton stations expansion.pdf

As for taking it beyond Broadgreen - just say its impossible not unless you wish to create major traffic problems for a considerable period of time and more importantly the sheer cost of the project to widen the section under the M62 motorway approaching the Rocket. Just not feasible sadly. Likewise, Wavertee Technology Park is not really on either for either side of the station. Some one mentioned the south side of the station and putting a track there - again not wthout major works to reduce the embankment which supports the Techonlogy Buildings built on ex Edge Hill MPD site = probably need considerable supporting walls for starters.

Agree any change to the road system at Broadgreen would likely cause considerable traffic congestion and not be cheap. However, I would point out that the majority of the obstruction is caused by the present eastbound slip road. If this could be re-sited nearer the junction with Rocky Lane and the start/end of motorway regulations moved to the next junction in both directions the start/end of the M62 would likely be a lot safer and the obstruction removed, see about 52.47 mins in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyiRWuV92qY
The next bridge under Queens Drive would also require widening as the video shows, and those embankments at Wavertree would require works although today with all the vegetation it is difficult to determine exactly how much. The existing two lines were slewed when the station was built but prior to it's construction I am fairly sure the banks were steeper as the alignment of the Rathbone Road bridge and retaining walls towards Edge Hill Station would suggest In fact, the twin tracks which formed the coal depot which were removed when Wavertree Tech Park station was constructed used to be the fast lines through the cutting and connected to the London line as this old picture shows.
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e90/michaeldelz/45075_edge_hill.jpg

Sadly I cannot see restoring the four tracking being restored through Broadgreen in the immediate future but if Merseyrail extend the existing system through one of the tunnels at Edge Hill and/or the amount of freight using the Bootle Branch increases considerably there would clearly be a capacity issue on this part of the line.
 

The Planner

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Those links talk about adding a third track as part of the electrification, and then a fourth track later as part of the Northern Hub. I think I've read somewhere that it's now planned to add both new tracks as part of the electrification. Which certainly seems more compatible with common sense.

Still two phases as far as I know.
 
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