My idea for AC conversion of Euston to Queen's Park

[joeykins82]

Just a thought, would it make sense for the Watford DC line between Euston and Queen's Park to be converted to OHLE AC? It'd eliminate the requirement for all of the dual voltage infrastructure in and around Euston (instead just having a changeover in the platforms at Queen's Park). Same applies for Willesden to South Acton and Imperial Wharf; as far as I know all of the passenger services that operate on those lines are AC capable. Would it make sense or am I missing something major?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Euston-Queens Park can't be done as far as I'm aware because of clearances in one of the sets of tunnels between the two (Primrose Hill I think) - to install OHLE you'd need to do a lot of major restructuring and track lowering etc.

Edit - This may help, particularly post 13 + http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=82544&highlight=euston

 

[Muzer]

You can't convert the Watford DC line to AC, or they'd have to find a new name for it. Everyone knows that's much more important than any practical reasons.

 

[edwin_m]

You can't convert the Watford DC line to AC, or they'd have to find a new name for it.

I don't see why. Liverpool Street still has two lines designated "electric" despite the other four also having been electric for the past half century or so.

 

[yorkie]

Would it make sense or am I missing something major?

I'd be interested to see a cost-benefit analysis for this...!

 

[mr_jrt]

You can't convert the Watford DC line to AC, or they'd have to find a new name for it. Everyone knows that's much more important than any practical reasons.

Weeeeell, strictly speaking the original name would suffice: the "New Lines". They weren't electrified to start with!

 

[OxtedL]

Same applies for Willesden to South Acton and Imperial Wharf; as far as I know all of the passenger services that operate on those lines are AC capable.

Willesden Jn to South Acton is already AC.

The peak Southern WLL shuttles are trains that are often DC only and runs as far north as Shepherds Bush, so Imperial Wharf is too far south.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't see why. Liverpool Street still has two lines designated "electric" despite the other four also having been electric for the past half century or so.

Curiously, all 4 lines to Shenfield were electrified at the same time (brought into service 31/12/1949). But they were still renamed Mains and Electric, presumably as the electric service usually used those lines.

Back OT, it is indeed the primrose hill tunnels that would need expanding to get the wire in.

 

[moggie]

Not sure that LUL stock out of Stonebridge Pk depot will fit on the Bakerloo with a pantograph stuck on the top of it.

 

[causton]

Not sure that LUL stock out of Stonebridge Pk depot will fit on the Bakerloo with a pantograph stuck on the top of it.

Presumably that's why it's only Queens Park then and they could keep the fourth rail up to Kilburn High Road I guess?

 

[Nym]

Presumably that's why it's only Queens Park then and they could keep the fourth rail up to Kilburn High Road I guess?

So what about when LUL reverses at Kilburn High Road?

 

[causton]

So what about when LUL reverses at Kilburn High Road?

Let me think about that one...

and they could keep the fourth rail up to Kilburn High Road I guess?

Oh yes, I did!

 

[Nym]

Let me think about that one...



Oh yes, I did!

And where do you see LUL stock operating within 2.75m of OHLE?

 

[snowball]

You can't convert the Watford DC line to AC, or they'd have to find a new name for it. Everyone knows that's much more important than any practical reasons.

I don't see why. Liverpool Street still has two lines designated "electric" despite the other four also having been electric for the past half century or so.

I believe the DC Euston-Watford lines too continued to be known as "the electric lines" for years after the WCML was electrified.

 

[Eagle]

The lines through Sutton are still called the Portsmouth lines, even though Portsmouth services haven't gone that way in a very long time (possibly not since the early 1980s).

 

[Trog]

There are still the Up and Dn North London Electrics at Chalk Farm / South Hampstead.

 

[WestCountry]

And where do you see LUL stock operating within 2.75m of OHLE?

But...his proposal doesn't involve any LUL stock operating under OHLE? Queens Park has separate LO and LUL platforms.
EDIT: I should make sure I remember what order stations are in before posting...

Different argument - why would there be a problem operating Tube stock under OHLE? The loading gauge is smaller, so there should be significantly more clearance.

-------

Would it be possible to install this newfangled bar stuff in Primrose Hill tunnels, or is it too tight even for that?

 

[edwin_m]

And where do you see LUL stock operating within 2.75m of OHLE?

What's the hazard?

 

[alex17595]

What's the hazard?

The possibility of arcing?

 

[edwin_m]

The possibility of arcing?

As pointed out above, clearances are several times larger with Tube stock.

 

[ert47]

Different argument - why would there be a problem operating Tube stock under OHLE? The loading gauge is smaller, so there should be significantly more clearance.

Wouldn't it have the same problem as running both 3rd Rail DC and OHLE together over great distances? Something to do with track circuits?

 

[edwin_m]

Wouldn't it have the same problem as running both 3rd Rail DC and OHLE together over great distances? Something to do with track circuits?

Any route with DC and AC electrification on the same track or even in close proximity needs special measures to do with earthing and track circuits. The type of train that operates on them makes very little difference. While this proposal might introduce some track with both types of electrification south of Queens Park it would eliminate the same on the approaches to Euston where the amount of complication is much more. It would also open up the possibility of converting Queens Park to Watford to OLE, retaining third rail as far as Harrow and from High Street to Watford Junction.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Presumably if TfL ever accomplish their longstanding ambition to re-route the Watford DC line to Highbury and Islington, the complications arising from DC at Euston would be solved anyway?

 

[34D]

And where do you see LUL stock operating within 2.75m of OHLE?

Surely they're well within tolerance, being as they're smaller?

 

[OxtedL]

If you were going to have Watford trains switching to AC for the last leg into Euston it'd be much easier to have the switchover at South Hampstead, where all the complications around the Bakerloo are removed.

Alas, the problem tunnel is to the east (quasi-south) of South Hampstead so no good.

Presumably if TfL ever accomplish their longstanding ambition to re-route the Watford DC line to Highbury and Islington, the complications arising from DC at Euston would be solved anyway?

Do you know anywhere that TfL have spoken about this ambition? It feels a little speculative of them if they have.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Not quite sure what you really gain - the DC operation into Euston is not perceived as problem - or very rarely so .....? - the bores off the slows onto the DC at South Hampstead are the constraint concrete lined and quite steep gradients.

 

[Chris125]

Presumably if TfL ever accomplish their longstanding ambition to re-route the Watford DC line to Highbury and Islington, the complications arising from DC at Euston would be solved anyway?

I'm not aware that TfL have expressed any such ambition, certainly not in recent years, for there's no obvious business case - even if they had, it can't really be accommodated alongside the current plans for HS2.

As for wiring the DC Line, only the section up Camden Bank would seem a likely candidate.

Chris

 

[Bald Rick]

Forgot to say in previous post, we looked at this in the feasibility stage for Euston Remodelling. The saving in third rail and substations was nowhere near enough to pay for the work in the DC tunnels at Primrose Hill.

 

[edwin_m]

Forgot to say in previous post, we looked at this in the feasibility stage for Euston Remodelling. The saving in third rail and substations was nowhere near enough to pay for the work in the DC tunnels at Primrose Hill.

Sounds like a definitive answer from someone who knows!

 

[Trog]

As for wiring the DC Line, only the section up Camden Bank would seem a likely candidate.

Chris

So much so that it was done in the 1960's.