Flint - London - Issue of unpaid fair notice

[LNW-GW Joint]

For what it's worth, the VT journey planner offers the Off-Peak SVR fare for that train (0829 from Crewe). The connection from Flint is at 0721.

I use this train sometimes (starting from Flint) and you do hear of issues with the BoJ on the outward journey because that fare (restriction VK) is not available from Chester/Wrexham (which have the usual 2C 1129 restriction into Euston).
This means that starting short at Chester/Crewe is not allowed.
Shouldn't be a problem when it is the return leg though.

 

[Greenback]

Is your clever pun an official position of RailUK Forums or just your personal opinion? Either way, I don't think it looks good for a forum moderator to be using it.

Doesn't look good to who?

If Virgin don't want to be called known by such alternative names they should ensure that their staff are fully trained in double checking what they think they know rather than believing they have some God given powers to be right all of the time!

It's only human to make mistakes, what is worse than making a mistake in my book is to refuse to acknowledge the possibility that you may be mistaken, and not look it into further.

 

[Welshman]

Doesn't look good to who?

If Virgin don't want to be called known by such alternative names they should ensure that their staff are fully trained in double checking what they think they know rather than believing they have some God given powers to be right all of the time!

It's only human to make mistakes, what is worse than making a mistake in my book is to refuse to acknowledge the possibility that you may be mistaken, and not look it into further.

I'm afraid I agree.

A while ago, my wife, who holds a Senior Railcard and boarded the 0549 from Rhyl to London, had to argue with the conductor who insisted she should pay full fare despite the fact that Virgin allows railcard holders to travel at the concessionary off-peak rate for journeys wholly on Virgin trains, and the booking-office, and TVM situated in the booking hall, are both inaccessible before 0620, making it impossible for her to buy a ticket before boarding.

She stood her ground, whereas others may not have done so, and the conductor went away, presumably to telephone his superiors. On his return, he issued the ticket she'd requested but there was no word of apology - just an arrogant "You've been lucky this time"

She was distressed by this incident and I complained to Virgin Trains, but have yet to receive an apology. I'm not holding my breath. Now when she uses this service I try to book her off-peak ticket in advance, or supply her with photocopies of the relevant easements and opening-hours of the station booking-office and TVM.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Similar case is EUSTON/LANCASTER... off peak valid any train out and back.. could one technically board at Manchester on return journey for arrival in Euston pre 1130 ?
LANCASTER tickets valid via Manchester so theoretically..

I know many people 'break' their journey at Preston in the evening peak :roll:

 

[island]

No, it's not valid on "any train". It's valid to Euston southbound arriving before 0430 or at or after 1005 and from Euston northbound before 0430 or at or after 0905.

There is nothing to stop a passenger on the return leg of a London Terminals to Lancaster starting their journey at Manchester at 0815, as this arrives at 1023. However, the outbound leg of a Lancaster to London Terminals ticket may not be used to start a journey on this train as it has a prohibition on break of journey.

 

[rb124]

Well, a few weeks on I have had a letter back from RPSS (nothing back from Virgin Customer Services - not even an acknowledgement).

In amongst what looks like a standard wording the substance of their response is:

"I have spoken with Virgin Trains who have confirmed that the Unpaid Fare Notice was issued correctly, and that the restrictions apply from Crewe (the point where the journey was broken) and not the origin station shown on the off peak ticket."

This was a possible response (as I mused in a previous post). Interested to hear people's views on this response.

I am minded to now pay the amount demanded to RPSS BUT accompany it with a letter stating that I still think I was in the right and will be pursuing the matter further with Virgin Trains.

On one hand VT might be able to argue that that is the rule, but on the other how on earth was I supposed to know that rule given it is not published anywhere? At the very least I would like recompense on the basis that I had no possible means to find out this "rule". Overall though it still feels like they are trying it on here and that if I did take this to a small claims court I would win as the wording of the published information does not make any caveated distinction about the boarding station as opposed to the station on the ticket.

Thanks for reading. :roll:

 

[nedchester]

Well, a few weeks on I have had a letter back from RPSS (nothing back from Virgin Customer Services - not even an acknowledgement).

In amongst what looks like a standard wording the substance of their response is:

"I have spoken with Virgin Trains who have confirmed that the Unpaid Fare Notice was issued correctly, and that the restrictions apply from Crewe (the point where the journey was broken) and not the origin station shown on the off peak ticket."

This was a possible response (as I mused in a previous post). Interested to hear people's views on this response.

I am minded to now pay the amount demanded to RPSS BUT accompany it with a letter stating that I still think I was in the right and will be pursuing the matter further with Virgin Trains.

On one hand VT might be able to argue that that is the rule, but on the other how on earth was I supposed to know that rule given it is not published anywhere? At the very least I would like recompense on the basis that I had no possible means to find out this "rule". Overall though it still feels like they are trying it on here and that if I did take this to a small claims court I would win as the wording of the published information does not make any caveated distinction about the boarding station as opposed to the station on the ticket.

Thanks for reading. :roll:

Don't pay the UFN as it is Virgin/RPSS who are wrong here. Pursue it further.

It doesn't matter where you broke your journey the ticket is valid from any intermediate station en route at the time you used it.

 

[jkdd77]

I agree with Nedchester- don't pay! Once you've paid, you'll find it extremely difficult to get any money back.

RPSS are telling untruths, the ticket was wholly valid, you don't owe a penny, any prosecution is certain to fail and would not be attempted, and it merely shows the appalling bias (or, at the very least, lack of training) of RPSS and Virgin.

I would advise writing to Virgin reaffirming that the ticket was valid, denying any alleged debt, and stating that any prosecution will be vigorously defended. Beyond that, I would advise ignoring any 'debt collection' letters, but not, of course, any actual court papers, which would need to be defended.

Restrictions apply to Off-Peak tickets based on the restriction code applying to the actual ticket purchased. The use of such tickets at intermediate stations would depend on the precise wording (including any BoJ restrictions) of that restriction code. In your case, the ticket was valid to start short at Crewe on the return leg on trains arriving at Euston at or after 1000.

 

[bb21]

Well, bear in mind that RPSS are incompetent, not independent, and run by a bunch of bullying clowns.

I was not the least bit surprised by the response.

I am almost tempted to let Vermin take you to court.

 

[jkdd77]

Well, bear in mind that RPSS are incompetent, not independent, and run by a bunch of bullying clowns.

I was not the least bit surprised by the response.

I am almost tempted to let Vermin take you to court.

If I were in the OP's position, with a choice between paying the non-existent "debt" and letting Virgin take me to court (and lose), I would unhesitatingly choose the latter option, especially given the relatively large sum of money involved, in the knowledge that at least some of the costs incurred could be reclaimed after the prosecution (or, in theory, county court claim) inevitably fails.

In practice, I suspect that Virgin and RPSS know perfectly well that the ticket is valid, further believe that they are trying to extract money from the OP by deliberately or recklessly making false statements as to validity in an attempt to make a gain for themselves by inducing him or her to pay a non-existent debt, and that they would never actually go to court.

 

[John @ home]

I boarded the 08.29 departure from Crewe, arrival at Euston 10.04. My ticket was a return portion of an off peak return from London to Flint and was within the one month validity period.

the [RPSS] response is:

"I have spoken with Virgin Trains who have confirmed that the Unpaid Fare Notice was issued correctly, and that the restrictions apply from Crewe (the point where the journey was broken) and not the origin station shown on the off peak ticket."

I would send a polite response stating that:

• it is unfortunate that RPSS have been misinformed by Virgin Trains that "the Unpaid Fares Notice was issued correctly", and
• the restrictions which apply to an Off-Peak Return ticket London Terminals - Flint are available for RPSS to inspect at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SVR_VN.pdf, and
• neither these restrictions nor the National Rail Conditions of Carriage indicate that the restrictions relevant to a ticket to or from anywhere else may apply to this ticket in any circumstances, and
• you continue to deny that you owe any money to Virgin Trains, and
• you will not enter into any further correspondence with RPSS on this matter, and
• any Court action to seek to obtain money from you relating to this matter will be defended vigorously.

 

[RJ]

rb124 - if you would like some assistance in having this farcical case short circuited, please do not hesitate to contact me by PM.

 

[island]

I would send a polite response stating that:

• it is unfortunate that RPSS have been misinformed by Virgin Trains that "the Unpaid Fares Notice was issued correctly", and
• the restrictions which apply to an Off-Peak Return ticket London Terminals - Flint are available for RPSS to inspect at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SVR_VN.pdf, and
• neither these restrictions nor the National Rail Conditions of Carriage indicate that the restrictions relevant to a ticket to or from anywhere else may apply to this ticket in any circumstances, and
• you continue to deny that you owe any money to Virgin Trains, and
• you will not enter into any further correspondence with RPSS on this matter, and
• any Court action to seek to obtain money from you relating to this matter will be defended vigorously.

• And you will seek to fix Virgin Trains with the costs of such defence.

 

[yorkie]

Don't pay. This is a scam!

Have you contacted Virgin Trains directly?

Have you lodged a complaint about Virgin Trains with Passenger Focus?

Have you contacted your MP?

Have you contacted ATOC?

If not, don't delay and contact them today. I will be happy to proof read any letters.

 

[rb124]

Thanks for further comments all. I have seen a couple of old threads on here regarding similar issues in the past re Shotton and Upton etc. Just wondered if anyone had specific evidence of a previous climb-down from VT on this. I doubt I am the first to get stuck on this...?

Thanks.

 

[bb21]

Thanks for further comments all. I have seen a couple of old threads on here regarding similar issues in the past re Shotton and Upton etc. Just wondered if anyone had specific evidence of a previous climb-down from VT on this. I doubt I am the first to get stuck on this...?

Thanks.

I don't think there has been any prosecution for this.

 

[rb124]

Got the really horrible final demand letter from RPSS today threatening with all sorts, even prison. Thanks a bunch - what happens to them if they in fact got it wrong

Still no response from Virgin. Have re-sent complaint to them. Also hoping that another avenue of enquiry will come up trumps and sort this out.

 

[bb21]

I think it may now be the appropriate time to get Passenger Focus involved.

 

[mullin]

Still no response from Virgin. Have re-sent complaint to them.

If you have Twitter, could you tweet them and see when you can expect a response? I find they're quite good at responding to messages (they may ask you to confirm in a direct message your name and postcode to find you in their system)

Or even a phone call to them perhaps?

 

[sheff1]

Did you contact all the people yorkie mentioned in post 44 ?

 

[Wolfie]

Got the really horrible final demand letter from RPSS today threatening with all sorts, even prison. Thanks a bunch - what happens to them if they in fact got it wrong

Still no response from Virgin. Have re-sent complaint to them. Also hoping that another avenue of enquiry will come up trumps and sort this out.

Time for a letter to your MP. Get him to raise the issue of the independence and competence of these tinpot clowns with the Secretary of State for Transport, ideally via a Parliamentary Question (believe me, as a Civil Servant Govt Depts really do not like issues such as this coming up in such a way!).

Copy your letter to Sir Beardie himself and tell him it will go to the media if there is no action in five days. Watch things change pdq.....

Bottom line, don't get mad, get even and make life uncomfortable for the incompetent shysters!

 

[rb124]

Thanks for further comments. I am generally hanging on from contacting others formally until I get a response from Virgin themselves. My patience on that avenue is running out fast but I am surprised I have had nothing back from them at all.

 

[RJ]

Virgin Trains are aware the ticket was valid - I raised the issue with them directly and had a response from the one person who should know about tickets to say that it was categorically valid and that there's no reason why the UFN shouldn't be rescinded. Internal communications are being worked on.

These people in Customer Relations and at the RPSS are utterly useless. I don't know what it is with this industry and it's attitude towards customers which is basically "well if we make a mistake that screws you over, be happy with a refund of any monies we were not entitled to take and be happy." If I had it my way, I would see that staff were empowered with the competencies required to avoid disputes of this nature and provide outstanding customer service. There should be mechanisms in place that see mistakes like this rectified quickly. When you start lodging appeals to the RPSS and they reject them without any valid justifications, that should set alarm bells ringing.

Passengers are at the heart of the railway and treating them like excrement is not on. I'd like to see competent management who motivate and look after their staff, staff who look after their customers and customers who can at least say that for all the railway's faults, at least the staff were alright. It makes my blood boil when I see cases like this.

 

[tony6499]

Virgin Trains are aware the ticket was valid - I raised the issue with them directly and had a response from the one person who should know about tickets to say that it was categorically valid and that there's no reason why the UFN shouldn't be rescinded. Internal communications are being worked on.

These people in Customer Relations and at the RPSS are utterly useless. I don't know what it is with this industry and it's attitude towards customers which is basically "well if we make a mistake that screws you over, be happy with a refund of any monies we were not entitled to take and be happy." If I had it my way, I would see that staff were empowered with the competencies required to avoid disputes of this nature and provide outstanding customer service. There should be mechanisms in place that see mistakes like this rectified quickly. When you start lodging appeals to the RPSS and they reject them without any valid justifications, that should set alarm bells ringing.

Passengers are at the heart of the railway and treating them like excrement is not on. I'd like to see competent management who motivate and look after their staff, staff who look after their customers and customers who can at least say that for all the railway's faults, at least the staff were alright. It makes my blood boil when I see cases like this.

Well put, that sort of staff training and manager/staff development should be an insistence on any new franchise awarded

 

[Gareth Marston]

Of course it's my own opinion and I stand by it.

There are plenty of reports of their train managers, gateline staff, and some of their management team refusing to accept valid tickets and refusing to listen to passengers' explanations. This is not contradictory to the fact that the majority of their staff do of course do a good job and I have met plenty of them as well.

For a company that thrives on self-promotion, I don't find the services offered on their trains any more special than others, and in some aspects, worse. The same applies with other aspects of a passenger's overall experience.

I know someone from Welshpool who carries a print out of the relevant restriction code with him when he travels to Euston. My local RUG periodically prints it out in their newsletter due to the amount of times Virgin staff get it wrong. The off peak return from west of Shrewsbury is valid in the evening peak from Euston, I will be in London on business a couple of times in the next few weeks and this thread has reminded me to go prepared for poorly trained staff.

 

[jon0844]

I don't know what it is with this industry and it's attitude towards customers which is basically "well if we make a mistake that screws you over, be happy with a refund of any monies we were not entitled to take and be happy."

Because it works.

I had a complaint with GA about having been made to pay more from Cheshunt to Stratford due to engineering work (thus having to go via Zone 1 on Oyster). I was told tough, it was planned engineering work - even though they accepted paper tickets that didn't go via London.

I moaned again and said I'd be referring it to London TravelWatch and they, miraculously, re-evaluated the situation and changed their mind and refunded me.

But, I never got around to actually referring them - so they did get away with it. I am annoyed with myself because I'll probably have the same problem next time they have engineering work and diversions in place. As will anyone else, especially as Oyster is cheaper and the more sensible way to pay.

It does confirm why many TOCs try it on though, as many people won't follow through with a complaint and even when someone does - they can weasle their way out quite easily anyway.

 

[rb124]

An update. Finally got a letter back from Virgin today. Confirmation that the UFN has been withdrawn and the ticket was valid. Staff actions on the day described as "deeply regrettable". Slightly disappointing that there was no reference at all to the lines pedalled by RPSS since then.... An offer of a standard class return ticket as a goodwill gesture has also been made.

Thanks again to all posters for their advice and encouragement to stand my ground on this one.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Thanks for coming back to tell us the news.
I'm sure I speak for many on here when I say that it's gratifying that the Company have admitted their error.

However, it is unsatisfactory that it has taken 2 months (whereas the first reply on here, by yorkie, based on the correct information, took him just a few minutes) and that RPSS demonstrated their incomprehension or indifference to the rules and conditions which apply to the industry in which they operate.
For these 2 reasons, I would suggest that you still pursue the matter.

You could reply to Virgin rasing both of these issues; to RPSS with both issues; to Passenger Focus with these and the original error which has taken Virgin 2 months to investigate; and, with your MP who should have a brief summary.
In my view there is a problem at a corporate level within both of those Companies which merits action.

 

[RJ]

An update. Finally got a letter back from Virgin today. Confirmation that the UFN has been withdrawn and the ticket was valid. Staff actions on the day described as "deeply regrettable". Slightly disappointing that there was no reference at all to the lines pedalled by RPSS since then.... An offer of a standard class return ticket as a goodwill gesture has also been made.

Thanks again to all posters for their advice and encouragement to stand my ground on this one.

I'm very glad that they've finally confirmed that it's all over and can only express dismay that it took them so long to do so. Certainly a shameful farce on the part of the TOC and the RPSS. Between a commercial guard, a revenue protection team, the customer relations department and the RPSS, the lot of them collectively couldn't muster up the nous to read the restriction code and put a stop to it, which is a deeply embarassing indictment on the calibre of railway staff who are supposed to be professional at what they do.

Thanks for persevering and standing your ground.

To Virgin's credit, they've gone one better than certain other Train Operating Companies and offered something as a goodwill. Mistakes made elsewhere are followed up by a "be grateful we cancelled the notice, now p*ss off" attitude.

 

[nlogax]

Anyone listen to You and Yours on Radio 4 today? The Flint > Euston situation was brought up there. According to Sim Harris of Railnews, Virgin have tightened up ticketing rules to address this and are asking customers to prove that they have in fact boarded in north Wales and not Crewe - is that correct?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03dv1bv (programme isn't yet available but should be there shortly)