Hull Trains 180 replacement

[SkinnyDave]

Rail magazine is reporting that Hull Trains will shortly be looking for EMUs to replace 180 assuming electrification goes ahead.

Any ideas as to what these could be?

 

[ainsworth74]

My money would have firmly been on 390s had the ICWC franchise gone ahead, a tag on order of around four baby pendos would have been logical. Now, however, my money would be on either 390s or possibly IEP. Of course having said that they might go for something completely different and surprise everyone! I'm just struggling to think of off the shelf 125mph trains that they're likely to want to use?

 

[fgwrich]

Don't forget though that during the whole ICWC debacle, it was rumoured that First were looking at various units options from CAF - Another possible contender?

 

[TheGrew]

My money would have firmly been on 390s had the ICWC franchise gone ahead, a tag on order of around four baby pendos would have been logical. Now, however, my money would be on either 390s or possibly IEP. Of course having said that they might go for something completely different and surprise everyone! I'm just struggling to think of off the shelf 125mph trains that they're likely to want to use?

Would a 395 be suitable? (assuming they could get the interior fit right)
Or maybe LHCS with (some of) the old Mark 4 rakes (with the refurb proposed by Evershott) and Traxx.

But yes 125+mph stock would be a must.

 

[route:oxford]

Rail magazine is reporting that Hull Trains will shortly be looking for EMUs to replace 180 assuming electrification goes ahead.

Any ideas as to what these could be?

I would like to see a electric Voyager/Meridian unit or even an electric 180 unit if is had forecast good reliability...

 

[Rhydgaled]

Rail magazine is reporting that Hull Trains will shortly be looking for EMUs to replace 180 assuming electrification goes ahead.

Any ideas as to what these could be?

How likely is Hull electrification, and when is it likely to happen? East Coast would have one less diesel route if that goes ahead, so what the hell do they want so many bi-mode IEPs for? Five Scottish trips, one Harrogate and one Lincoln? They really need to decide what they are going to wire in CP6 before deciding how many bi-modes they need.

Going back to Hull Trains, were the rumors true that they were willing to pay for the wires? If so, are they still willing to do so?

 

[ainsworth74]

How likely is Hull electrification, and when is it likely to happen?

As part of the bid to get long term rights to paths (their rights run out in a few years) FHT are prepared to get the route wired up by around 2017 in a similar fashion to the Chiltern Evergreen programs (they pay and Network Rail take over the new infrastructure in exchange for a lowered track access charge I believe would be the deal). So if they get the deal they want it's very likely and would be delivered hopefully within CP5.

 

[Eagle]

Five Scottish trips, one Harrogate and one Lincoln?

Skipton and Bradford are also diesel routes, due to 91s drawing too much power on the Airedale line (yes it's another example of late-80s/early-90s cheap-as-free flimsy electrification schemes).

 

[ainsworth74]

Skipton and Bradford are also diesel routes, due to 91s drawing too much power on the Airedale line (yes it's another example of late-80s/early-90s cheap-as-free flimsy electrification schemes).

As far as I'm aware that is no longer the case and hasn't been for a few years now.

 

[anthony263]

CAF are reportedly struglling to fill up their order books so perhaps they might be willing to offer a lower price to First Group to get an order. Even if it starts out Small Crosscountry will likely need some high speed emu's for Manchester - Bournemouth services once the electric spine is completed.

Of course there is the mdiland mainline electric fleet that will need considering but highly likely Hitachi will build more IEP's

 

[Eagle]

Depends how high-speed you mean. At the moment no part of Manchester to Bournemouth is above 110, being as XC Voyagers don't have tilt.

I do hope that any XC EMUs do have tilt though.

 

[Rhydgaled]

As part of the bid to get long term rights to paths (their rights run out in a few years) FHT are prepared to get the route wired up by around 2017 in a similar fashion to the Chiltern Evergreen programs (they pay and Network Rail take over the new infrastructure in exchange for a lowered track access charge I believe would be the deal). So if they get the deal they want it's very likely and would be delivered hopefully within CP5.

Wires by 2017? My guess was that Hull had been left off TPE electrification announced so far because they already have plenty of wiring to do in CP5 and haven't time to squeese in any more until CP6.

Skipton and Bradford are also diesel routes, due to 91s drawing too much power on the Airedale line (yes it's another example of late-80s/early-90s cheap-as-free flimsy electrification schemes).

I seem to remember reading that work was done fairly recently to upgrade the electrification so that IC225s could run to Skipton. Judging by the description on this image it was done in 2011.

 

[ainsworth74]

Wires by 2017? My guess was that Hull had been left off TPE electrification announced so far because they already have plenty of wiring to do in CP5 and haven't time to squeese in any more until CP6.

Perhaps it wasn't 2017 but their target date was definitely in CP5.

I seem to remember reading that work was done fairly recently to upgrade the electrification so that IC225s could run to Skipton. Judging by the description on this image it was done in 2011.

Yup as above 225s can run to Skipton and Bradford. I have a feeling Skipton went over to electric haulage with the Eureka timetable in May 2011. Bradford has been for a while before that (indeed I think it's been electric since the wires went up).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yup as above 225s can run to Skipton and Bradford. I have a feeling Skipton went over to electric haulage with the Eureka timetable in May 2011. Bradford has been for a while before that (indeed I think it's been electric since the wires went up).

The Forster Square-London service did switch to electric operation shortly after the wires went up (though there's no reason a HST wouldn't turn up anyway from time-to-time). The Bradford service was a regular turn for 89001 during it's all-too-brief GNER resurrection.

 

[tbtc]

If we are talking electrification to Hull in around five years then there may be a few fast EMUs being ordered around that time - i.e. if the MML doesn't get 225s, if the Liverpool - Newcastle or Manchester - Bournemouth services are speeded up.

Too early to speculate much further I reckon.

How likely is Hull electrification, and when is it likely to happen? East Coast would have one less diesel route if that goes ahead, so what the hell do they want so many bi-mode IEPs for? Five Scottish trips, one Harrogate and one Lincoln?

Please not another thread turned into an argument about bi-mode

 

[D365]

Just tag 3-5 5-car electric IEPs to the order. Quick and easy, higher capacity, interchangeable with the EC fleet if needs be.

 

[IanXC]

Perhaps it wasn't 2017 but their target date was definitely in CP5.

2017 does sound familiar, as I recall the intention was to have a couple of partners in the programme - particularly so that the wiring can be delivered alongside what is already committed.

The other thing to note is that HT's previous announcement was very specific that a new depot would be constructed in Hull, which to me leaves the stock question absolutely wide open.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Depends how high-speed you mean. At the moment no part of Manchester to Bournemouth is above 110, being as XC Voyagers don't have tilt.

I do hope that any XC EMUs do have tilt though.

A stretch of Wolverhampton - Stafford is 125 for XC Voyagers.

 

[The Ham]

Of course, if they don't get used elsewhere, the IC225's could be used by Hull Trains, given they have few stops so getting to their top speed is less of an issue.

 

[Phlip]

IC225s aren't due to be replaced until 2019. The speculation here seems to be electrification is due around 2017.

 

[junglejames]

My money would have firmly been on 390s had the ICWC franchise gone ahead, a tag on order of around four baby pendos would have been logical. Now, however, my money would be on either 390s or possibly IEP. Of course having said that they might go for something completely different and surprise everyone! I'm just struggling to think of off the shelf 125mph trains that they're likely to want to use?

Surely it would be more of a surprise if it is a pendy or IEP?
You dont order a more expensive pendy if you dont require the tilt. OK you could chuck non tilt bogies underneath, but you dont go with such a cramped interior if you arent tilting. Id rather a 180 under the wires than a 390!

As for IEP. Considering Hull Trains dont have to order whatever trains the DFT tell them to order, this has got to be even less likely than the pope converting to Islam. The rail industry has no wish whatsoever for IEP. Only the government wants it. So there is no chance of a rail operator ordering it.

My guess, 125mph CAF EMUs. The same ones they wanted to order for the WCML (if NR were to allow them to run at 125 with them)

 

[Rhydgaled]

Surely it would be more of a surprise if it is a pendy or IEP?
You dont order a more expensive pendy if you dont require the tilt. OK you could chuck non tilt bogies underneath, but you dont go with such a cramped interior if you arent tilting. Id rather a 180 under the wires than a 390!

As for IEP. Considering Hull Trains dont have to order whatever trains the DFT tell them to order, this has got to be even less likely than the pope converting to Islam. The rail industry has no wish whatsoever for IEP. Only the government wants it. So there is no chance of a rail operator ordering it.

My guess, 125mph CAF EMUs. The same ones they wanted to order for the WCML (if NR were to allow them to run at 125 with them)

If Hull does get wired then perhaps the non-tilt 'pendolino' with a class 180-style body that some on the WNXX fourm want instead of IEP. Perhaps with 26m coaches, if the line's been cleared for them might as well use them.

 

[anthony263]

What about that suggested Adelino (aka class 180 style body with class 390 traction equipment?) that someone at First suggested as an alternative to IEP?

 

[swt_passenger]

Depends how high-speed you mean. At the moment no part of Manchester to Bournemouth is above 110, being as XC Voyagers don't have tilt.

They can and do run at 125 mph between Reading and Didcot.

No need for tilt - you must be thinking of the limitations on most of the WCML...

 

[junglejames]

What about that suggested Adelino (aka class 180 style body with class 390 traction equipment?) that someone at First suggested as an alternative to IEP?

The what??? All these daft names that keep appearing. Just because something may have the same traction motors as are under the 390s, people have to add in the name pendolino, or lino, or no, or dolino.
Its like those that mention non tilting pendolinos? A what? Pendolino is the name given (by the Italians I think) to tilting trains! A non tilting, tilting train:roll:

Dont the voyagers have similar traction motors to the pendys? and the Adelantes have the same bodies as 175s? So how about a CorLanteVoyaLino. Thats what im calling them from now on!!!

Basically its a train built by Alstom, which takes the best bits from a couple of their trains.

Doesnt the WAG express now have similar seats inside to ATWs 158s? Is that a Mk3 Sprinter? Or what? Perhaps a Mk3158?

 

[Kettledrum]

As for IEP. Considering Hull Trains dont have to order whatever trains the DFT tell them to order, this has got to be even less likely than the pope converting to Islam. The rail industry has no wish whatsoever for IEP. Only the government wants it. So there is no chance of a rail operator ordering it.

My guess, 125mph CAF EMUs. The same ones they wanted to order for the WCML (if NR were to allow them to run at 125 with them)

There's been lots of hot air about IEP from the industry but biggest objections might not be problems for Hull Trains.

1. bi-mode - Hull Trains probably won't want this so simply won't go for bi-mode
2. The IEP leasing arrangement is a PFI-like deal so very expensive for the taxpayer, as the project does not benefit from the very low borrowing rates that the rest of the government borrowing has. If Hull trains have to borrow money to fund their replacements, the IEP PFI deal might be more attractive to them. If they want to pay cash by borrowing internally from within the First Group, there's nothing to stop them negotiating directly with Hitachi for a deal structured differently to IEP, but using compatible units.
3. some objections are about the internal seating layout of the IEP units, but again Hull trains can write their own specification for this.

 

[junglejames]

But yes, anything with the same bodyshell as a 175/ 180 would be good. Would anyone really go back to Steel bodyshells though? The proof is there that they are the best, but seemingly the only thing on peoples minds now is saving a couple of kilograms of weight
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's been lots of hot air about IEP from the industry but biggest objections might not be problems for Hull Trains.

1. bi-mode - Hull Trains probably won't want this so simply won't go for bi-mode
2. The IEP leasing arrangement is a PFI-like deal so very expensive for the taxpayer, as the project does not benefit from the very low borrowing rates that the rest of the government borrowing has. If Hull trains have to borrow money to fund their replacements, the IEP PFI deal might be more attractive to them. If they want to pay cash by borrowing internally from within the First Group, there's nothing to stop them negotiating directly with Hitachi for a deal structured differently to IEP, but using compatible units.
3. some objections are about the internal seating layout of the IEP units, but again Hull trains can write their own specification for this.

The PFI deal set up is also more expensive than traditional 'leasing from a ROSCO', and ROSCOs dont get the cheap borrowing rates either.
Remember, the industry hasnt been trying to change the way the trains are being purchased. They are wanting to change the actual trains.
Also, the internal layout cannot be changed that much, because of the 26m bodies. Luggage racks will have to stay the other side of the vestibule, causing possible chaos at busy stations (thats if anyone even wants to leave their luggage there).

At the end of the day, the rail industry does not want IEP in any way shape of form. So Hull Trains are not going to be ordering IEP. I would put a large amought of money on the fact that neither pendys or IEP will be ordered for HT.

 

[Liam_Hendry]

I could imagine a 444 with pantograph or a "Baby Pendolino"

 

[Eagle]

I could imagine a 444 with pantograph or a "Baby Pendolino"

Whatever it is, it'd have to be capable of 125 mph. Which rules out anything with a blunt end as those are limited to 110 (formerly 100 before the recent Desiro upgrades).

 

[Rhydgaled]

Whatever it is, it'd have to be capable of 125 mph. Which rules out anything with a blunt end as those are limited to 110 (formerly 100 before the recent Desiro upgrades).

Not sure about multiple units, but 110mph with blunt ends has been arround long before Desiros. According to Wikipedia, Class 87s and some 86s were capable of it, and class 91s can do up to 110mph with the blunt end leading.