Should Wrexham redouble now occur following prison approval?

[Squaddie]

On a final note, about rail infrastructure in Wales,all I wish for is a fair share of WG taxpayers money directed to North East Wales, both Network Rail and ATW both state the line between Wrexham and Chester is their biggest pinch point in North Wales,both were stunned by the announcement delaying the project due to commence in October.

As for rail travel that will be used by families of inmates to the biggest prison in Europe with 2000 inmates, many will visit by train without question and this was taken into account by all six North Wales County Councils working in unison to get the prison in Wrexham, the extra capacity a dual track could provide was a key part of the local bid, Taith the travel consortium of all North Wales County Councils was not even consulted by WG Ministers decision to rethink the dual tracking, remember this is not new £32M capital money, but supposed ring fenced for the past three years,which we believe has been spent elsewhere and this has not been denied by WG.

You have seen my letter to the press and to all AMs and MPs, I have had support from all Welsh Political parties both AMs and MPs overnight

Everyone is entitled to their opinion,including me, and I have to right to request parity with other areas of Wales for capitol spend monies on operational infrastructure of the railway

Bob

Yes, of course you have the right to express your opinions. But your determination to turn every discussion into a north vs. south political issue and (usually) a rant against the Welsh government merely detracts from the facts. And that's a huge pity, because there are many issues around rail and road transport in Wales that deserve discussion and debate.

In this particular case there are, as far as I am aware, no official estimates of the number of additional rail travellers as a result of the prison. And you haven't presented a convincing case why the opening of the prison necessarily requires more trains each hour rather than, say, additional carriages on existing trains. Reports on BBC Wales and S4C last night suggest that the majority of inmates will come from other parts of north Wales, so perhaps it would be more cost-effective and convenient to provide additional direct bus routes from across the region for staff and visitors alike.

Incidentally, I think you've been taken in by your own rhetoric with regard to the size of the proposed prison. In your opening post you described it as

the largest Prison in the UK perhaps Europe

Subsequently, however, you have simply described it as the largest prison in Europe. There is, in fact, at least one larger prison in Europe.

Some of the local residents interviewed on TV last night were somewhat less enthusiastic than you seem to be about having the largest prison in the UK on their doorstep. One of them them made the very valid point that building the prison on the industrial estate in this way greatly lessens the chances of attracting actual business and industry to the town. And I think I would tend to agree with him.

 

[merlodlliw]

You are entitled to your opinion of course. As for numbers using rail in respect of the prison, Altnabreac gives a good answer.

 

[edwin_m]

We can estimate demand for a station by a prison by looking at a station next to a recently opened prison:

Addiewell in Scotland.

This is a new 500 place prison located close to a station with an hourly train service.

Station usage has increased from 10,000 a year to 25,000 a year since the prison opened.

So for a 2,000 place prison this gives maybe 60,000 passengers a year. That's a decent number but not enough to justify a station on its own. Given the location on an industrial estate there should be additional demand from other users.

It obviously depends on a number of factors particularly how accessible the site is by rail from the places where the prisoners' relatives live, which includes how easy it is to get from the station to the prison. According to its website Addiewell prison is very close to a station with two trains per hour to/from Edinburgh and Glasgow which are probably the main sources of visitors. Wikipedia says it has 700 inmates not 500 and the useage of Addiewell station would appear to have increased from 10000 to around 14000 before the prison opened in 2008.

The Wrexham site appears to be less convenient for the station although it does have reasonably frequent and direct services from Manchester, Birmingham and Cardiff (I'm assuming as it's a UK Ministry of Justice project that it receives prisoners from England as well as Wales).

Total guess but I would imagine each inmate receives one visitor per week on average, so that's 2000 per week. Rail's national share of passenger-km is about 5%, but let's say 20% for these journeys as they will be longer distance where rail has a better share. That would be 20000 per year or 400 per week. If they are evenly distributed that's about 60 per day or perhaps 10 per hour depending on the visiting hours, so probably only two or three per train on average.

 

[The Informer]

More likely I think it towards the purchase of Cardiff Airport

Yes, thats the likely destination it went!

 

[Requeststop]

Build the prison and put the inmates on earning some benefits by putting them on hard labour breaking rock for ballast, making concrete sleepers and put them on cable laying duties, especially the crooks who have stolen and re-sold cable stolen from the railways. Then when the line is completely re-doubled, allow the families to travel on the re-doubled line to the prison.

 

[merlodlliw]

Build the prison and put the inmates on earning some benefits by putting them on hard labour breaking rock for ballast, making concrete sleepers and put them on cable laying duties, especially the crooks who have stolen and re-sold cable stolen from the railways. Then when the line is completely re-doubled, allow the families to travel on the re-doubled line to the prison.

problem is the real thieves never seem to get caught.

 

[edwin_m]

put them on cable laying duties, especially the crooks who have stolen and re-sold cable stolen from the railways.

Perhaps not the best idea to acquaint them with where the cables are and how best to handle them?

 

[Dolge]

Can anyone clarify the new 'Wrexham North' station proposed to serve a bus link to the new prison? I assume this displaces older proposals for a new station south of Rossett? The most likely site I can see for a new station is off the big A483/A5586 roundabout. This would serve Gresford and Llay just as well as a Rossett station and also serve, and serve some substantial places employment on the same location, as well as allowing a fast bus link to the prison. In which case the new station would have several distinct sources of traffic, not just the prison, and presumably some additional funding options. I agree that even a mega prison would not justify a station on its own but in combination with other traffic sources it would. And if it helps the case for redoubling so much the better.

Incidentally prison visitors do use rail - the Home Office Assisted Prison Visits Unit supplies rail vouchers for prisoners' relatives without their own transport.

 

[TDK]

With the excellent news today Wrexham is to house the largest Prison in the UK perhaps Europe, 2000 inmates & 1000 staff, to be built on land owned by Welsh Government, its looking better for the redouble and associated station at North Wrexham(Rossett).

I have sent this short letter to the local daily press in North East Wales and copied it to all MPs & AMs.

Maybe a free bus link from Wrexham General to the prison to connect with visiting times would be more economical,

What benefit will redoubling the track have as it is not being completely redoubled. It would be far better to upgrade the existing single line up increase the line speed. The only proposals I have seen is ATW wanting an additional express service to run ahead of the current Birmingham service, this can be done with the track as it is.

If the sections between Wrexham and Shrewsbury are enhanced with a higher line speed and also re-signalled this will in turn improve the current capacity.

Sorry Bob I still think that partially redoubling the track and having a station at Rosset is complete waste of resources.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can anyone clarify the new 'Wrexham North' station proposed to serve a bus link to the new prison? I assume this displaces older proposals for a new station south of Rossett? The most likely site I can see for a new station is off the big A483/A5586 roundabout. This would serve Gresford and Llay just as well as a Rossett station and also serve, and serve some substantial places employment on the same location, as well as allowing a fast bus link to the prison. In which case the new station would have several distinct sources of traffic, not just the prison, and presumably some additional funding options. I agree that even a mega prison would not justify a station on its own but in combination with other traffic sources it would. And if it helps the case for redoubling so much the better.

Incidentally prison visitors do use rail - the Home Office Assisted Prison Visits Unit supplies rail vouchers for prisoners' relatives without their own transport.

The site you are thinking of I am certain will be on the single line section so totally impracticable. The best place will be at the bottom of Gresford bank Chester side of the R/G Level Crossing at Rossett.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

thank you for changing the title, two trains an hour on this line would be of enormous benefit.

ATW do not even fill one train an hour currently so of what benefit would 2 trains be?

 

[Requeststop]

Perhaps not the best idea to acquaint them with where the cables are and how best to handle them?

They'd know anyway. There are always some cables next to the railways!

 

[merlodlliw]

ATW do not even fill one train an hour currently so of what benefit would 2 trains be?

I met the wife off the 1746 to Birmingham ex Wrexham 1748 on Wednesday, two coach arrived full and standing,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can anyone clarify the new 'Wrexham North' station proposed to serve a bus link to the new prison? I assume this displaces older proposals for a new station south of Rossett? The most likely site I can see for a new station is off the big A483/A5586 roundabout. This would serve Gresford and Llay just as well as a Rossett station and also serve, and serve some substantial places employment on the same location, as well as allowing a fast bus link to the prison. In which case the new station would have several distinct sources of traffic, not just the prison, and presumably some additional funding options. I agree that even a mega prison would not justify a station on its own but in combination with other traffic sources it would. And if it helps the case for redoubling so much the better.

Incidentally prison visitors do use rail - the Home Office Assisted Prison Visits Unit supplies rail vouchers for prisoners' relatives without their own transport.

Wrexham North station proposed is at Rossett, the footbridge was designed for dual tracks when it was rebuilt a few years ago.

 

[The Planner]

What benefit will redoubling the track have as it is not being completely redoubled. It would be far better to upgrade the existing single line up increase the line speed. The only proposals I have seen is ATW wanting an additional express service to run ahead of the current Birmingham service, this can be done with the track as it is.

Will make a difference at the Saltney end and it does improve capacity, just upping the speed only allows you to clear the single line quicker. Like I have said before, NR would not have entertained this without the WG money.

If the sections between Wrexham and Shrewsbury are enhanced with a higher line speed and also re-signalled this will in turn improve the current capacity.

I thought that was on the cards still, 90mph Gobowen to Shrewsbury with some IB signals.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Maybe a free bus link from Wrexham General to the prison to connect with visiting times would be more economical,

What benefit will redoubling the track have as it is not being completely redoubled. It would be far better to upgrade the existing single line up increase the line speed. The only proposals I have seen is ATW wanting an additional express service to run ahead of the current Birmingham service, this can be done with the track as it is.

If the sections between Wrexham and Shrewsbury are enhanced with a higher line speed and also re-signalled this will in turn improve the current capacity.

Sorry Bob I still think that partially redoubling the track and having a station at Rosset is complete waste of resources.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The site you are thinking of I am certain will be on the single line section so totally impracticable. The best place will be at the bottom of Gresford bank Chester side of the R/G Level Crossing at Rossett.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


ATW do not even fill one train an hour currently so of what benefit would 2 trains be?

Your wrong there. I've stood through Wrexham in last year.

 

[daikilo]

Will make a difference at the Saltney end and it does improve capacity, just upping the speed only allows you to clear the single line quicker. Like I have said before, NR would not have entertained this without the WG money.



I thought that was on the cards still, 90mph Gobowen to Shrewsbury with some IB signals.

Merlodlliw, keep going, don't weaken, you are probably onto a winner if you keep on plugging this. And it is unlikely that all prison inmates will be of Welsh origin so it should not be just WG money.

Others, you may well be right that other locations may also justify investment. Put in a counter-bid for the prison.

 

[12CSVT]

Why can't we outsource prisons to other countries?

I'm sure the Chinese could do it for less.

Or build a prison on Rockall, surrounded by gunships in case any of the convicts try to escape.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockall

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With the excellent news today Wrexham is to house the largest Prison in the UK perhaps Europe, 2000 inmates & 1000 staff, to be built on land owned by Welsh Government, its looking better for the redouble and associated station at North Wrexham(Rossett).

Would the new station site at Rossett be in the same area as the site of the railway station that was closed in the 1960's ?

Taking the total figure to be 3,000 in addition to the existing population of the said area, what would be the actual population of that specific area ?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Will make a difference at the Saltney end and it does improve capacity, just upping the speed only allows you to clear the single line quicker. Like I have said before, NR would not have entertained this without the WG money.



I thought that was on the cards still, 90mph Gobowen to Shrewsbury with some IB signals.

The entire route along the north Wales coast, Chester to Shrewsbury to Birmingham and the Marches down to Cardiff will still be held hostage to constraints from the single track section. Those that knock Wrexhams credentials for better services constantly ignore the widespread area effected by the single track constraint.

 

[Squaddie]

The entire route along the north Wales coast, Chester to Shrewsbury to Birmingham and the Marches down to Cardiff will still be held hostage to constraints from the single track section. Those that knock Wrexhams credentials for better services constantly ignore the widespread area effected by the single track constraint.

I don't think anyone on this thread has disagreed with the desirability of doubling the line between Wrexham and Saltney.

The disagreement lies in whether Wrexham (population 42,500) needs more than the current 1 tph in each direction and, in particular, whether the building of a new prison is sufficient to tip the balance.

 

[TDK]

I met the wife off the 1746 to Birmingham ex Wrexham 1748 on Wednesday, two coach arrived full and standing,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One rush hour train, make it a 4 car Bob. Still a lot cheaper than redoubling
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Your wrong there. I've stood through Wrexham in last year.

On how many occasions? Enough to merit a 2 tph service? Maybe it will be beneficial for 2 hours in the day but not for all day. I know the loadings of the trains from Wrexham from experience and not as a passenger.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't think anyone on this thread has disagreed with the desirability of doubling the line between Wrexham and Saltney. The disagreement lies in whether Wrexham (population 42,500) needs more than the current 1 tph in each direction and, in particular, whether the building of a new prison is sufficient to tip the balance.

Ignoring the size of Wrexham. would it not be better to look at the doubling of the line as an improvement to this part of a through route that links the North Wales area to Shrewsbury and routes onward from there.

There are calls to quadruple certain double-tracked sections of routes in parts of the southern reaches of Britain, yet here we are pondering upon the advisability the doubling of a single through-route line in North Wales....:roll:

 

[jones_bangor]

Increasing the line speed to 90mph and a short section of redoubling at Saltney to allow queuing off the mainline if trains are late should do the job.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Increasing the line speed to 90mph and a short section of redoubling at Saltney to allow queuing off the mainline if trains are late should do the job.

the constraint will still be there albeit somewhat less than it is now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One rush hour train, make it a 4 car Bob. Still a lot cheaper than redoubling
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


On how many occasions? Enough to merit a 2 tph service? Maybe it will be beneficial for 2 hours in the day but not for all day. I know the loadings of the trains from Wrexham from experience and not as a passenger.

I stood on the 162x southbound from Chester on a Thursday, but I've seen standing on other trains when I've had seat a lot more. The worst overcrowding I saw was on the 102x northbound from Shrewsbury on a summer Saturday 2 years ago it was that bad that the station dwell times went up and it hit the single track section late and then knocked on a delay onto the southbound service from Chester that was sat waiting us clearing the section.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think anyone on this thread has disagreed with the desirability of doubling the line between Wrexham and Saltney.

The disagreement lies in whether Wrexham (population 42,500) needs more than the current 1 tph in each direction and, in particular, whether the building of a new prison is sufficient to tip the balance.

No one complains about Cwmbran having 30 trains a day to Cardiff but it has slightly more population but a lot fewer footfall than Wrexham. In fact Aberystwyth sees more passengers yet only has 10 trains a day and is half the size.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No one complains about Cwmbran having 30 trains a day to Cardiff but it has slightly more population but a lot fewer footfall than Wrexham. In fact Aberystwyth sees more passengers yet only has 10 trains a day and is half the size.

A point that has been very well made in this posting.

 

[Squaddie]

No one complains about Cwmbran having 30 trains a day to Cardiff but it has slightly more population but a lot fewer footfall than Wrexham. In fact Aberystwyth sees more passengers yet only has 10 trains a day and is half the size.

Merely pointing out that another station in another part of the country with an entirely different pattern of passenger usage sees more trains per day is not sufficient justification for demanding that Wrexham has more trains per day too.

It is, I think, beyond reasonable doubt that rail services through Wrexham have capacity problems. This is an issue across much of the ATW network and beyond. However, no-one has made a convincing argument that the solution should be more trains per hour rather than simply more carriages on existing services.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

No one complains about Cwmbran having 30 trains a day to Cardiff but it has slightly more population but a lot fewer footfall than Wrexham. In fact Aberystwyth sees more passengers yet only has 10 trains a day and is half the size.

That is not a valid comparison. Are you suggesting that trains should run through Cwmbran without stopping? Road improvements have placed it in a very competitive environment and any reduction in service would mean surrendering the business to the road.

Aberystwyth is a University town, with all the comings and goings that that entails and it is also a holiday resort. Aberystwyth is not the easiest place to get to by road and its railway line is a considerable asset, unless you live in other parts of Wales. It certainly needs more services and, one day, the long promised hourly service might become reality.

I am not against more services for Wrexham but every case is unique and has its own peculiarities. This was where the methodology of the Beeching era was so badly flawed. Barry Island, for example, has a higher footfall than Wrexham General but how much of that is originating traffic? Had the Beeching philosophy been followed to its conclusion, Barry Island would no longer have any trains at all. It only goes to prove that raw figures rarely give us the true picture and should be approached with caution and is akin to comparing apples with oranges.

The question remains. Would Wrexham be able to support extra services? I do not think that the prison will bring sufficient business to the line to make a great deal of difference. Several people have suggested longer trains and, if the stock can be found, that would, at least, go some way to helping the situation.

 

[Gareth Marston]

That is not a valid comparison. Are you suggesting that trains should run through Cwmbran without stopping? Road improvements have placed it in a very competitive environment and any reduction in service would mean surrendering the business to the road.

Aberystwyth is a University town, with all the comings and goings that that entails and it is also a holiday resort. Aberystwyth is not the easiest place to get to by road and its railway line is a considerable asset, unless you live in other parts of Wales. It certainly needs more services and, one day, the long promised hourly service might become reality.

I am not against more services for Wrexham but every case is unique and has its own peculiarities. This was where the methodology of the Beeching era was so badly flawed. Barry Island, for example, has a higher footfall than Wrexham General but how much of that is originating traffic? Had the Beeching philosophy been followed to its conclusion, Barry Island would no longer have any trains at all. It only goes to prove that raw figures rarely give us the true picture and should be approached with caution and is akin to comparing apples with oranges.

The question remains. Would Wrexham be able to support extra services? I do not think that the prison will bring sufficient business to the line to make a great deal of difference. Several people have suggested longer trains and, if the stock can be found, that would, at least, go some way to helping the situation.

It's squadie that was suggesting that Wrexham with a population of 40-45k only needs an hourly service, I was showing that there are other towns in the Wales and borders area with similar population to Wrexham that have more services. Of course squaddies logic means that Cwmbran should have fewer trains, something I don't advocate. Hereford is about the same size as well but look at the service there including direct trains to London. Bridgend is similar in size to you can't argue that there's some magic forums that says an hourly service is appropriate for a town of around 40k. I,m sure we could pick over towns this size in other parts of UK and find that on the whole they have better frequencies than hourly.

The demand from Wrexham for extra trains is towards Chester and NW England which of course is where the blasted single track is.

 

[TDK]

Increasing the line speed to 90mph and a short section of redoubling at Saltney to allow queuing off the mainline if trains are late should do the job.

You can have train queuing on the slow line prior to Saltney Junction so that would not improve anything.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

It's squadie that was suggesting that Wrexham with a population of 40-45k only needs an hourly service, I was showing that there are other towns in the Wales and borders area with similar population to Wrexham that have more services. Of course squaddies logic means that Cwmbran should have fewer trains, something I don't advocate. Hereford is about the same size as well but look at the service there including direct trains to London. Bridgend is similar in size to you can't argue that there's some magic forums that says an hourly service is appropriate for a town of around 40k. I,m sure we could pick over towns this size in other parts of UK and find that on the whole they have better frequencies than hourly.

The demand from Wrexham for extra trains is towards Chester and NW England which of course is where the blasted single track is.

My apologies for the mistaken identity.

Hereford has a population of almost half as much again as Wrexham and is situated on three important routes, none of which were ever closed, so it is hardly comparable to the position of Wrexham.

Bridgend is, again, a very different kettle of fish to Wrexham. For many years there was only 1tph to Cardiff and it was the re-opening, under BR, of the Maesteg line and intermediate stations between Bridgend and Cardiff followed by the re-opening of stations west to Swansea that made the difference. Since then, of course, the Vale of Glamorgan re-opening has added to its popularity.

The two examples show, once again, why it is so difficult to make direct comparisons.

As for Wrexham, of course the single line is an impediment and I don’t think that anyone is arguing against that. It can only be seen as a betrayal by the Labour Government in Cardiff if it doesn’t get done. It wouldn’t surprise me if the line could support 2tph but it would need a serious shift from road to rail and a robust service to back it up. Under the present circumstances, there doesn’t seem to be much of a will to do anything about Wrexham and, perhaps, strengthening some trains might be a way forward.

Does anyone know of any spare DMUs?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Does anyone know of any spare DMUs?

Not a chance of one anywhere without cutting services elsewhere - until the electrification programmes delivers some cascades.....

Bridgend to Cardiff by the way is ATW (and Wales's) largest single passenger flow..difficult to think of it being 1 tph now ...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Or build a prison on Rockall, surrounded by gunships in case any of the convicts try to escape.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockall

I was not aware that the WAG had recently annexed Rockall...