Should Wrexham redouble now occur following prison approval?

[merlodlliw]

With the excellent news today Wrexham is to house the largest Prison in the UK perhaps Europe, 2000 inmates & 1000 staff, to be built on land owned by Welsh Government, its looking better for the redouble and associated station at North Wrexham(Rossett).

I have sent this short letter to the local daily press in North East Wales and copied it to all MPs & AMs.

Now we have the excellent news that Wrexham will house the Super Prison, we need Welsh Government to give the immediate go ahead to Network Rail to redouble the line from Saltney to Wrexham to enable the 2000 inmates families proper travel facilities, this can not be done with one or even two trains an hour on the line. Welsh Government can not drag its feet any longer.With 1000 staff manning the prison as well the travel to work alone will require extra rail and train facilities.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

It is good news for Wrexham and the surrounding area. Hopefully this will also add to the case for other projects in the area too.

 

[Geezertronic]

It's not really something to be proud of having a massive prison on your doorstep. Winson Green is 10 miles away from me and even that is too close

 

[Eagle]

Well my nearest prison is closing. :P

 

[route:oxford]

Why can't we outsource prisons to other countries?

I'm sure the Chinese could do it for less.

 

[Eagle]

Why can't we outsource prisons to other countries?

That's what Australia used to be for.

 

[NSEFAN]

That's what Australia used to be for.

As well as disowned offspring who had shamed the family by getting the maid pregnant!

 

[Gareth Marston]

With the excellent news today Wrexham is to house the largest Prison in the UK perhaps Europe, 2000 inmates & 1000 staff, to be built on land owned by Welsh Government, its looking better for the redouble and associated station at North Wrexham(Rossett).

I have sent this short letter to the local daily press in North East Wales and copied it to all MPs & AMs.

It's good leverage anyway Bob

 

[DarloRich]

With the excellent news today Wrexham is to house the largest Prison in the UK perhaps Europe, 2000 inmates & 1000 staff, to be built on land owned by Welsh Government, its looking better for the redouble and associated station at North Wrexham(Rossett).

I have sent this short letter to the local daily press in North East Wales and copied it to all MPs & AMs.

can i just check why this should help redouble the railway line? After all, the inmates shouldn't need to use the line that often.

 

[Squaddie]

I don't think the existence of a large prison in Wrexham would necessarily require an increase in the number of trains serving the town.

Most prison officers will probably live in the local area, and travel to work by car or bus. For the visitors, one train an hour will be sufficient as long as it is reliable, fits in well with prison visiting hours (it would probably be easier to set visiting hours according to the train timetable than the other way around) and has a convenient bus connection between the station and prison.

I completely agree that the Saltney redoubling is a worthwhile and desirable project, but its purpose should be to improve service reliability rather than frequency. I don't really think there is much justification for Wrexham to have more than one train per hour in each direction, bearing in mind its size and geographical location.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't think the existence of a large prison in Wrexham would necessarily require an increase in the number of trains serving the town.

The thread heading seems misleadingly positive to me. Is there any previous official support for this line of reasoning?

 

[merlodlliw]

I don't think the existence of a large prison in Wrexham would necessarily require an increase in the number of trains serving the town.

Most prison officers will probably live in the local area, and travel to work by car or bus. For the visitors, one train an hour will be sufficient as long as it is reliable, fits in well with prison visiting hours (it would probably be easier to set visiting hours according to the train timetable than the other way around) and has a convenient bus connection between the station and prison.

I completely agree that the Saltney redoubling is a worthwhile and desirable project, but its purpose should be to improve service reliability rather than frequency. I don't really think there is much justification for Wrexham to have more than one train per hour in each direction, bearing in mind its size and geographical location.

I expected a few comments from the South, but to put it another way,I met my wife at Wrexham off the 1746, she had been to Llandudno Junction to a WG NRW meeting representing a Voluntary Org,she told me the 1646 ex LlJ to Birmingham was a two coach 158,reasonably full none stop to Chester when it left Chester it was full & standing to Wrexham , at Wrexham around 100 detained and I counted 60 boarding, I just can not understand why Wrexham the largest town or City in North Wales deserves a worse service than Gowerton a village of only 9K who enjoyed 95 services a week since May.

My opinion

Bob

 

[steamybrian]

I cannot see how building a prison will bring additional passengers to the line.
Here in the South East some prisons are a long way from the nearest station examples-
Parkhurst (Isle of Wight), Eastchurch (Isle of Sheppey), Blantyre House (Kent)
Whilst the nearest station to Broadmoor is Crowthorne (2 miles) has an hourly train service

 

[Eagle]

I expected a few comments from the South, but to put it another way,I met my wife at Wrexham off the 1746, she had been to Llandudno Junction to a WG NRW meeting representing a Voluntary Org,she told me the 1646 ex LlJ to Birmingham was a two coach 158,reasonably full none stop to Chester when it left Chester it was full & standing to Wrexham , at Wrexham around 100 detained and I counted 60 boarding, I just can not understand why Wrexham the largest town or City in North Wales deserves a worse service than Gowerton a village of only 9K who enjoyed 95 services a week since May.

All very true, but what has this to do with new prisons?

 

[The Informer]

With the excellent news today Wrexham is to house the largest Prison in the UK perhaps Europe, 2000 inmates & 1000 staff, to be built on land owned by Welsh Government, its looking better for the redouble and associated station at North Wrexham(Rossett).

I have sent this short letter to the local daily press in North East Wales and copied it to all MPs & AMs.

The so-called ring fenced money for the re-double probably paid for this prison!

 

[merlodlliw]

All very true, but what has this to do with new prisons?

Not all families of 2000 inmates will travel by car, the Wrexham Saltney line is already at saturation on the single track,after all this is the largest prison complex in Europe & requires transport, a hub at Rossett near the prison at what will be (Wrexham North station) requires a dual track,and this was in the plan,WG have sold the site to the Ministry Of Justice, so cash is no longer a problem to dual the line,

Benefits 1000 new jobs when completed
£23M PA into the local North East Wales economy
Over £230 M to build the prison with ,many 100s of local construction jobs

 

[Eagle]

Not all families of 2000 inmates will travel by car

Yes but how often (if at all) will they need to travel there? Not every day, not every week that's for sure.

The "extra traffic" created by the new prison will be minuscule, why can't you see that?

 

[swt_passenger]

...WG have sold the site to the Ministry Of Justice, so cash is no longer a problem to dual the line,

Yes but, is that already the official plan, or is what you personally think the plan ought to be?

If the latter are they going to be persuaded otherwise by you writing to various MPs?

 

[merlodlliw]

Yes but, is that already the official plan, or is what you personally think the plan ought to be?

If the latter are they going to be persuaded otherwise by you writing to various MPs?

You cannot run a Prison of that size without infrastructure, so why on a rail forum are so many against extra rail services running to service what is the UKs second largest industrial estate.

 

[daikilo]

Yes but, is that already the official plan, or is what you personally think the plan ought to be?

If the latter are they going to be persuaded otherwise by you writing to various MPs?

Come on guys, Bob at least has joined-up thinking. What I really liked was this in one of his posts:

[..] I met my wife at Wrexham off the 1746, she had been to Llandudno Junction to a WG NRW meeting representing a Voluntary Org,she told me the 1646 ex LlJ to Birmingham was a two coach 158, reasonably full none stop to Chester when it left Chester it was full & standing to Wrexham , at Wrexham around 100 detained and I counted 60 boarding, [..]

If they detain 100 off a single train, that prison will be far too small. Sorry Bob, couldn't resist.

It is high time that logic like yours is deployed more widely as it will happen. Few prison staff will be executive grade and many families likely will be in financial hardship.

 

[merlodlliw]

Yes but, is that already the official plan, or is what you personally think the plan ought to be?

If the latter are they going to be persuaded otherwise by you writing to various MPs?

It was in the plan,prior to WG stalling the redouble.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If they detain 100 off a single train, that prison will be far too small. Sorry Bob, couldn't resist.

A bit of querty, goes a long way

 

[anthony263]

The so-called ring fenced money for the re-double probably paid for this prison!

More likely I think it towards the purchase of Cardiff Airport

 

[Squaddie]

I expected a few comments from the South...

This is not a north-south issue, Bob.

There are many proposals for improvements to rail infrastructure and services in north and mid Wales that I fully support, including the redoubling between Wrexham and Saltney Junction.

I simply happen to believe, from a purely objective point of view, that there is little justification for an increase in the number of trains serving Wrexham General, particularly during a time of austerity and so many competing demands for the money that is available.

 

[edwin_m]

at Wrexham around 100 detained and I counted 60 boarding,

That's quick work if they've opened the prison already!

 

[Gwenllian2001]

This is not a north-south issue, Bob.

There are many proposals for improvements to rail infrastructure and services in north and mid Wales that I fully support, including the redoubling between Wrexham and Saltney Junction.

I simply happen to believe, from a purely objective point of view, that there is little justification for an increase in the number of trains serving Wrexham General, particularly during a time of austerity and so many competing demands for the money that is available.

You are quite right, it is not a North - South issue. The building of a new prison will have little impact on the rail infrastructure around Wrexham. How many people use the railways to visit the prisons in Swansea or Cardiff? How do people manage to visit the prison in Usk that has no railway anywhere near it? This constant 'North - South' argument is a 'Carnard' thrown up by populist poiticos, almost without exception belonging to the Labour Party, who have no other way to drum up support. The present administration is, i'm afraid, firmly wedded to Transport House and has no real interest in Wales, North or South.

Wrexham is an important regional centre but it is dwarfed by the Valleys of the South, in population density and transport needs. No one is against rail improvements for Wrexham but wouldn't it be be nice if places like Tredegar; Blackwood; Ystalyfera; Gorseinon; Abertyleri; Ogmore Vale or Beddau had any kind of rail service at all.

 

[Antman]

I cannot see how building a prison will bring additional passengers to the line.
Here in the South East some prisons are a long way from the nearest station examples-
Parkhurst (Isle of Wight), Eastchurch (Isle of Sheppey), Blantyre House (Kent)
Whilst the nearest station to Broadmoor is Crowthorne (2 miles) has an hourly train service

OTOH Maidstone Prison is virtually slap bang opposite Maidstone East station, I'm not quite sure what the connection is between prisons and train travel though

 

[The Crab]

Fletcher travelled to Slade from St Pancras.

 

[Altnabreac]

OTOH Maidstone Prison is virtually slap bang opposite Maidstone East station, I'm not quite sure what the connection is between prisons and train travel though

We can estimate demand for a station by a prison by looking at a station next to a recently opened prison:

Addiewell in Scotland.

This is a new 500 place prison located close to a station with an hourly train service.

Station usage has increased from 10,000 a year to 25,000 a year since the prison opened.

So for a 2,000 place prison this gives maybe 60,000 passengers a year. That's a decent number but not enough to justify a station on its own. Given the location on an industrial estate there should be additional demand from other users.

 

[yorkie]

The thread heading seems misleadingly positive to me.

Agreed. Thread title changed.

I am struggling to understand some of the OPs statements, and I don't see a clear argument outlining the capacity issues.

As for the claim that 2 trains per hour would not be enough, that seems absurd to me. Many lines 'only' have 2 trains per hour.

 

[merlodlliw]

On a final note, about rail infrastructure in Wales,all I wish for is a fair share of WG taxpayers money directed to North East Wales, both Network Rail and ATW both state the line between Wrexham and Chester is their biggest pinch point in North Wales,both were stunned by the announcement delaying the project due to commence in October.

As for rail travel that will be used by families of inmates to the biggest prison in Europe with 2000 inmates, many will visit by train without question and this was taken into account by all six North Wales County Councils working in unison to get the prison in Wrexham, the extra capacity a dual track could provide was a key part of the local bid, Taith the travel consortium of all North Wales County Councils was not even consulted by WG Ministers decision to rethink the dual tracking, remember this is not new £32M capital money, but supposed ring fenced for the past three years,which we believe has been spent elsewhere and this has not been denied by WG.

You have seen my letter to the press and to all AMs and MPs, I have had support from all Welsh Political parties both AMs and MPs overnight

Everyone is entitled to their opinion,including me, and I have to right to request parity with other areas of Wales for capitol spend monies on operational infrastructure of the railway

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agreed. Thread title changed.

I am struggling to understand some of the OPs statements, and I don't see a clear argument outlining the capacity issues.

As for the claim that 2 trains per hour would not be enough, that seems absurd to me. Many lines 'only' have 2 trains per hour.

thank you for changing the title, two trains an hour on this line would be of enormous benefit.