My idea for through Knottingley-Manchester Victoria services

[anti-pacer]

Would it be possible and desirable to link the following 3 services together, and provide 1 service all the way from Knottingley to Manchester?

* Knottingley-Wakefield K
* Wakefield W-Huddersfield
* Huddersfield-Manchester V

I don't know how this would work timetable/stock wise, but the advantages as I see them are..

* Direct services from Knottingley/Pontefract to Huddersfield/Manchester
* Re-linking Wakefield to Manchester
* A new through route linking a large chunk of West Yorkshire together

 

[GNERman]

I've often wondered if the Knottingley - Wakefield Kirkgate should be extended through to Leeds via Wakefield Westgate, but I'm not sure if the demand is there. Same with this really, I doubt the demand would be there.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

Would it be possible and desirable to link the following 3 services together, and provide 1 service all the way from Knottingley to Manchester?

* Knottingley-Wakefield K
* Wakefield W-Huddersfield
* Huddersfield-Manchester V

I don't know how this would work timetable/stock wise, but the advantages as I see them are..

* Direct services from Knottingley/Pontefract to Huddersfield/Manchester
* Re-linking Wakefield to Manchester
* A new through route linking a large chunk of West Yorkshire together

I think some of the Knottingley trains used to go through to Westgate, maybe one or two still do, but they were cut back because of lack of paths.

 

[Crossover]

I think some of the Knottingley trains used to go through to Westgate, maybe one or two still do, but they were cut back because of lack of paths.

Off Knottingley, 2F88 and 2F90 (21:23 and 22:30 respectively) appear to go all the way to Wakefield Westgate and head straight back to Knottingley without a shunt into Wrenthorpe Reception. The rest terminate at Kirkgate

I expect part of the problem will be pathing, indeed, given Knottingley is only accessible from Platform 3 at Kirkgate, it involves blocking all running lines through the station to make the move in each direction

EDIT: 2F59, the 06:24 off Wakefield Westgate goes right through to Knottingley too. This is formed from 3F59, ECS from Holbeck Loco Sidings. I suspect this is in place as there is probably no way to shunt from Kirkgate Pl 2 to Pl 3.

As far as I know, Kirkgate - Knottingley services then ordinarily become Knottingley - Leeds ones and vice versa, so if the sets are swapped round in the day, it can be done at Leeds

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd say the main problem with this proposal is the loss of the 1tph between the two stations in Wakefield- including the opportunity for Huddersfield-London passengers to avoid Leeds. I've heard it said that once the Westgate rebuild is done, the Knottingley services will once again run through to Westgate, but this doesn't solve the issue of having to cross the whole of Kirkgate station throat at the South end to access the curve up to Westgate. I'm also not too sure about the idea of cramming yet more services onto P1 & 8 at Huddersfield, given the soon-to-be-added 5th TPE service (and a 6th once the wires go up).

 

[Welshman]

I'd say the main problem with this proposal is the loss of the 1tph between the two stations in Wakefield- including the opportunity for Huddersfield-London passengers to avoid Leeds.

The Huddersfield-Wakefield Westgate service was started way back when Huddersfield lost its through services to London, and express services from Huddersfield to Leeds and from Leeds to Kings Cross were hourly. In addition to being a sop for the loss of through services, it also saved time from/to Huddersfield by connecting at Wakefield, and avoiding Leeds.

Now there are 4 expresses an hour from Huddersfield to Leeds [and 6 planned], and a half-hourly service on weekdays from Leeds to Kings Cross, I'm not sure how vital the hourly Huddersfield-Wakefield link is for London passengers. Certainly if I were travelling from Huddersfield to London, I think the inconvenience of changing at Leeds would be a small price to pay for travelling on a more frequent and comfortable 185 to Leeds and an HST/225 from Leeds onwards, rather than a 153 for the first stage of the journey.

Perhaps now is the time to think about extending it to Castleford/Knottingley, and avoid the congested Wakefield Westgate altogether. It could use the bay platforms at Huddersfield and provide a connection into the Leeds-Manchester services.

 

[Bevan Price]

Knottingley to Huddersfield might be feasible, but not an extension to Manchester, because the Huddersfield / Manchester section is being electrified.

 

[Darren R]

What is there about Knottingley that people want to introduce through trains to exotic places? The thread about Bradford CrossRail is suggesting Knottingley - Ilkley/Skipton.

How well patronised are the Huddersfield - Wakefield trains? (The last time I traversed the route it was on a 141! ) As Welshman suggests, the original purpose of these services is now largely negated. With TPE electrification, perhaps now is the time to look again at this service, along with the others in the Wakefield area. I know it's hardly a new idea to suggest re-opened stations at Horbury and Thornhill, along with new platforms at Ravensthorpe, but wouldn't the Huddersfield - Wakefields be better as a stopping service to somewhere beyond Kirkgate rather than reversing up the curve to Westgate?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

How well patronised are the Huddersfield - Wakefield trains? (The last time I traversed the route it was on a 141! ) As Welshman suggests, the original purpose of these services is now largely negated. With TPE electrification, perhaps now is the time to look again at this service, along with the others in the Wakefield area. I know it's hardly a new idea to suggest re-opened stations at Horbury and Thornhill, along with new platforms at Ravensthorpe, but wouldn't the Huddersfield - Wakefields be better as a stopping service to somewhere beyond Kirkgate rather than reversing up the curve to Westgate?

Huddersfield to Wakefield services are not overly busy- since the 'Grand Tour' was split it's rarely anything other than a 2-car pacer or a dogbox. That said, they're not transporting fresh air- there's a fair bit of school traffic and does still seem well-used by people travelling longer distances judging by the amount of luggage. Though as Welshman suggested that role of the service has diminished- so reopening intermediate stations would be a way of boosting numbers and giving more people access to the network.

It would also be ideal if the Wakefield service could leave Huddersfield 30mins after the Leeds stopper rather than 5mins after it at present- Deighton and Mirfield may have 2tph from Huddersfield on paper but they're so close together that if you've missed the first one you'll probably miss the second one too!

 

[Darren R]

Is there any major stumbling block to new/reopened stations at Horbury, Thornhill and Ravensthorpe? (Other than funding being found! ) Given the resurgence of rail travel along the former L&Y routes through the Calder Valley over recent years I'm a little surprised there isn't a campaign to bring rail travel back to the good people of the lower Calder Valley. Is the demand not there for new stations?

 

[Welshman]

Is there any major stumbling block to new/reopened stations at Horbury, Thornhill and Ravensthorpe? (Other than funding being found! ) Given the resurgence of rail travel along the former L&Y routes through the Calder Valley over recent years I'm a little surprised there isn't a campaign to bring rail travel back to the good people of the lower Calder Valley. Is the demand not there for new stations?

I don't know about present demand, but presuming most, if not all, of the Healey Mills yard will eventually be cleared, leaving a large site possibly for housing developments/retail & recreational facilities.

Then the case for a re-opened station around the site of the old L&Y Horbury & Ossett would be strengthened.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If you turn the clock back far enough, you get Manchester Victoria-Calder Valley-Wakefield-Castleford-York on the L&Y main line.
Maybe its time is returning with electrification of the LNW route.
Wouldn't help Huddersfield though (or Knottingley).

 

[Welshman]

If you turn the clock back far enough, you get Manchester Victoria-Calder Valley-Wakefield-Castleford-York on the L&Y main line.
Maybe its time is returning with electrification of the LNW route.

Yes, indeed.
I think through services ceased about 1970, after the closure of Leeds Central in 1967, and the diversion of all services into what was Leeds City.

As York could then be served just as easily via Leeds City, and as Leeds was a growing commercial centre, it seemed good to divert the Calder Valley-York services that way, and close the sections from Milner Royd to Heaton Lodge Junction and Castleford to Burton Salmon to passenger traffic.

Now, when even a recently-enlarged Leeds station is almost full, such services should be re-considered.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Then the case for a re-opened station around the site of the old L&Y Horbury & Ossett would be strengthened.

I think that some in authority would be chary about reopening that station in case it was to be "stolen"...the fate that befell Cleckheaton Central station..

 

[NorthernSpirit]

If Cleckheaton was to ever reopen then rebuilding the line from Low Moor to Raventhorpe will make complete sense, shame that it would only be graced by a former FNW 142 with cement sack seats.

Saying that though, you can imagine the people of the 'Spen Valley Line' wanting Grand Central to serve them instead of through Halifax, Brighouse and Mirfield.

 

[wbbminerals]

If there was a new station at Horbury I would suggest the most important thing would be through trains to Wakefield, Huddersfield and Leeds. Grand Central trains could connect at Kirkgate for Doncaster, Pontefract and London.