4-PEP at Marks Tey

[Bringback309s]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5540462967/in/set-72157626177441729

I didn't know they'd ever strayed off of Southern - also the pantagraph carriage looks like a 313 and not a PEP carriage. Interesting one - does anyone know more about this?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That panto car is from a 313 (or possibly a 315?), the prototype PEP cars had 3 sets of doors on each side rather than 2.

 

[Waldgrun]

They say Google is your friend, and also it helps to refresh ones memory.
You are correct in saying that the Pantgraph coach is that from a class 313 as it has only 2 passenger doors, PEP vehicles had 3 doors, the test Unit was formed from 2 PEP driving coaches and the new build vehicle. See;

http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/2_4pep01.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Classes_445_and_446

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They say Google is your friend, and also it helps to refresh ones memory.
You are correct in saying that the Pantgraph coach is that from a class 313 as it has only 2 passenger doors, PEP vehicles had 3 doors, the test Unit was formed from 2 PEP driving coaches and the new build vehicle. See;

http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/2_4pep01.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Classes_445_and_446

According to the first site linked to, the panto car was not from a 313 (though I assume it was very similar to the production panto cars of the 313s).

 

[nlogax]

I think all those bogies are BX1s, so the whole train looks rather 313-ish to me. Did PEPs ride on BX1s at any point?

 

[delt1c]

it also visited Glasgow, i remember seeing it on test on the North clyde route in the mid 70's

 

[theblackwatch]

According to the first site linked to, the panto car was not from a 313 (though I assume it was very similar to the production panto cars of the 313s).

Indeed - from the paragraph at the bottom of that page, it's quite clear the vehicle concerned is ADB975431.

 

[DaveF]

The photo in the link at the start of this thread is one of mine, it is indeed the set which was tested on the GER from the summer of 1975 until the end of January 1976. After this it was tried on the LT&S for some months. Sadly I never saw it on the LT&S, even though it was within walking distance of where I then lived.

It was converted from 2 of the 4PEP experimental coaches with a newly built coach with the pantograph, as mentioned in the post above this was ADB975431.

This set was classified as Class 920, numbered as 920001.

The Class 313s were delivered in 1976/7, this set 920001 was used as the test bed during final development of the 313s

David

 

[6Gman]

The photo in the link at the start of this thread is one of mine, it is indeed the set which was tested on the GER from the summer of 1975 until the end of January 1976. After this it was tried on the LT&S for some months. Sadly I never saw it on the LT&S, even though it was within walking distance of where I then lived.

It was converted from 2 of the 4PEP experimental coaches with a newly built coach with the pantograph, as mentioned in the post above this was ADB975431.

This set was classified as Class 920, numbered as 920001.

The Class 313s were delivered in 1976/7, this set 920001 was used as the test bed during final development of the 313s

David

As 920001 I photographed it in Crewe.

 

[asylumxl]

Mildly off-topic, why was tje 2 door configuration chosen over the 3 door configuration?

 

[robertclark125]

The reason for the visit to North Glasgow was to test the units in preparation for the reopening of the Argyle line, namely the underground section through Glasgow Central low level, closed in the Beeching era, in 1979. The class 314 EMUs were built specifically for this, hence the test train visit.

 

[O L Leigh]

I think all those bogies are BX1s, so the whole train looks rather 313-ish to me. Did PEPs ride on BX1s at any point?

It would appear that the PEPs must have been test-beds for different bogie designs. Looking at the photos on the SEMG website, the 2PEP (from which the 25kV AC "3PEP" prototype was created) it would appear that this unit rode on BX1-alike bogies while the two 4PEP units had a completely different design not carried through onto any production units.

As for the door layout, I just guess it was decided to go for two doors per vehicle rather than three based on operational experience. Three door vestibules does rather eat into the number of seats. Perhaps passenger feedback was that seating was a greater priority than standing space. Either way, the reason would be lost to history. Unless you were there at the meeting when this was decided I don't think you will ever find out the reason why.

I've always been intrigued by the PEPs, especially the 25kV AC prototype. It's amazing to see just how many features were carried over into the production units. There is a YouTube link on the Wikipedia page, and it's strange to see how familiar the driver's desk. I'd never seen any photos of the AC version before, so my thanks to Dave for posting his photo of the unit online. It's interesting to see that, not only do the windows have no vents, but the prototype centre car has blanked-off doors so was clearly never intended to carry passengers.

A quick search throws up a photo of the unpainted aluminium car at Ilford Car Sheds and another one at Clacton Sheds.

O L Leigh

 

[nlogax]

It would appear that the PEPs must have been test-beds for different bogie designs. Looking at the photos on the SEMG website, the 2PEP (from which the 25kV AC "3PEP" prototype was created) it would appear that this unit rode on BX1-alike bogies while the two 4PEP units had a completely different design not carried through onto any production units.

Ah yes, thanks for that. I'd seen the 2-PEP photo at SEMG before, but never studied the bogie type until you just mentioned it.

4-PEPs fascinate me too. For a couple of years in the 1980s I remember seeing 4002 sitting forlornly beside the shed at Clapham Junction and was always curious about it.

 

[Bringback309s]

Thanks for those extra pics - I couldn't find any more of the unit on the Eastern Region.

 

[Helvellyn]

I wonder if the three doors per side was because 12/13 slam doors per side to two doors was initially thought too big a jump? In service trials maybe showed that two doors per side were sufficient.

Also, on the PEPs were the doors behind the cabs passenger doors? They were very wide in the pictures shown just to be crew doors.

 

[D7666]

There were 11 prototype cars

2x4Pep and 1x2Pep = 10 cars all DC only, these were SR 4001/2 and 2001.

The 11th car was an AC pan car built ahead of 313 and 314, 920001 was formed of this 11th car plus two of the original 10 pep cars.


--
Nick

 

[nlogax]

Very good PEP piece at Railexpress:
http://www.railexpress.co.uk/news/it-s-time-for-a-pep-talk

 

[D365]

Ah yes, that much-encountered link above.

In the book "Eastern Electric" by John Glover, it reports that a 1974 BR-published information brochure "Livewire" concerning the GN suburban programme describes the PEP/313 class as the most-developed suburban train design in British history (so glad that 313x01 is earmarked for the National Collection). I've tried searching this document online but to no avail.

Although referenced on Google Docs and other repositories, I have not come across the actual thing. On the off chance, might anyone know where I might find a copy? It certainly sounds rather curious.

I'm still wondering how London cross-railways will get away with two passenger doors per carriage side (even if they are wide). There will likely be several hotspots where Spanish-style (or even just four) platforms might have been useful; see Munich S-Bahn.

 

[12CSVT]

Slightly off topic, four 313s were based at Clacton in the late 1980s, renumbered 313096 to 313099.

 

[Bringback309s]

Yes they did - one demolished part of Walton station which led to their demise on that route...

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=1387