Is there any truth that the national standard for train driver tests are changing?

[Mattmatt]

I was told today that as of Sept 13, (this year) the tests are changing, meaning that if you've failed them before and was unable to sit the test again. You will now have your 2 strikes back again!

This came from a bod within Northern Rail and someone i trust. So my question to others who may have some more knowledge on this, "Is this true or just some rumour doing its rounds" Or perhaps someone could direct me to the info on here?

 

[E&W Lucas]

I was told today that as of Sept 13, (this year) the tests are changing, meaning that if you've failed them before and was unable to sit the test again. You will now have your 2 strikes back again!

This came from a bod within Northern Rail and someone i trust. So my question to others who may have some more knowledge on this, "Is this true or just some rumour doing its rounds" Or perhaps someone could direct me to the info on here?

One thing hasn't changed. Drivers need to be able to think for themselves!

 

[Iwillbeadriver]

Yes they are changing!! I took my assessments last week and thankfully passed them but the assessor there confirmed that they will change!! "how to be" have already got the practice material available to order, how accurate they will be to the actual tests you will take are another matter as I can't see how they would know what they will be until they are released!!

Not sure if you get you're two lives again but I have also heard that this will be the case!!

 

[charlie873]

I spoke direct to the OPC yesterday and told them I failed the structured interview in 2010, but passed first stage in may this year and she told me that as of October the new test goes live, and I will NOT be able to take the test at because I've already taken it twice, even though I've got a pass on the first stage with FGW. I'm now waiting on an email from the RSSB to clarify this. There'll be a lot of unhappy folk if this is the case.

 

[scotraildriver]

Yes its definitely changing. The main reason being that the current tests, particularly the bourdon, were designed as tests that you can either do or not depending on the person. You were NOT meant to practice them as you don't really get to practice concentration in the job. It is a trait you either have or don't. However, the internet has allowed these tests to become available freely so people now pass through practice who may have failed in the past. Don't know how the new tests overcome this though.

 

[FlamTap]

... Don't know how the new tests overcome this though.

Initially they will, as there will be a lack of practice material available for the new tests. However, this will only be short term. As already mentioned the "How to Become..." range of products is already gearing up for the new tests.

Also, the author of the current Bourdon practice software already has a framework in place ready for the new visual/perception test. He's planning on releasing an "all-in-one" practice tool for the new tests on PC, iPhone and Android devices. The software will also contain the current Bourdon and SCAAT practice aids as well as a practice aid for the reactions test.

 

[GB]

I spoke direct to the OPC yesterday and told them I failed the structured interview in 2010, but passed first stage in may this year and she told me that as of October the new test goes live, and I will NOT be able to take the test at because I've already taken it twice, even though I've got a pass on the first stage with FGW. I'm now waiting on an email from the RSSB to clarify this. There'll be a lot of unhappy folk if this is the case.

There was a link posted sometime back here pointing towards an RSSB document relating to the new tests. In it I am sure it said the slate would be wiped clean.
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It is a trait you either have or don't.

Sorry I don't buy that. Concentration can be improved over time with enough effort.

 

[TDK]

Initially they will, as there will be a lack of practice material available for the new tests. However, this will only be short term. As already mentioned the "How to Become..." range of products is already gearing up for the new tests.

Also, the author of the current Bourdon practice software already has a framework in place ready for the new visual/perception test. He's planning on releasing an "all-in-one" practice tool for the new tests on PC, iPhone and Android devices. The software will also contain the current Bourdon and SCAAT practice aids as well as a practice aid for the reactions test.

Maybe the tests should be copyrighted or something with a ban on direct practice material. This whole thing is a joke.

 

[FlamTap]

Maybe the tests should be copyrighted or something with a ban on direct practice material. This whole thing is a joke.

It's very likely the tests are already covered under some sort of copyright/patent/NDA. But this is the age of the Internet we're talking about here! And if the likes of major movie/music companies; software giants like Microsoft/Apple all have problems controlling "leaked" products then someone like the OPC would have very little chance of policing it.

Once something becomes available on the Internet it's pretty much out there for good. Copyright or no copyright.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Maybe the tests should be copyrighted or something with a ban on direct practice material. This whole thing is a joke.

Would take the ORR, etc. to "lean" on the producers of such materials, I would expect. They are compromising the driver recruitment process, to an extent, after all.

 

[GadgetMan]

They are compromising the driver recruitment process, to an extent, after all.

It depends on whether the practice material just teaches you how to pass the entry tests or actually helps permanently develop the skills you will require as a driver.

 

[E&W Lucas]

It depends on whether the practice material just teaches you how to pass the entry tests or actually helps permanently develop the skills you will require as a driver.

Can you permanently develop aptitude?

You can coach someone to pass an isolated test exercise, but I think one of the concerns with the present tests, is that too many are passing them, who are then failing the training, or having incidents soon after.

Perhaps this goes some way to explain, why TOC's are seemingly only recruiting those who have the highest grades?

 

[TOCDriver]

Yes its definitely changing. The main reason being that the current tests, particularly the bourdon, were designed as tests that you can either do or not depending on the person. You were NOT meant to practice them as you don't really get to practice concentration in the job. It is a trait you either have or don't. However, the internet has allowed these tests to become available freely so people now pass through practice who may have failed in the past. Don't know how the new tests overcome this though.

Exactly the point I have made in the past. You should not be able to practice for these tests and become proficient at them. You are either naturally capable of doing the job are you are not.
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Sorry I don't buy that. Concentration can be improved over time with enough effort.

Nup, don't agree with you on that and so do many psychologists
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Perhaps this goes some way to explain, why TOC's are seemingly only recruiting those who have the highest grades?

I agree with you there - you have a point

 

[youngboy]

FWIW, I took the TPE assessments in April and without practice got a pass at GBT, A Pass at TRP1 and a good pass at TRP2.
Still not enough to make the grade but obviously now I realise that I should have spent a few months practising the tests and maybe the two passes would've been slightly better and took me into the next stage. Ah well live and learn !!

 

[1e10]

It's very likely the tests are already covered under some sort of copyright/patent/NDA. But this is the age of the Internet we're talking about here! And if the likes of major movie/music companies; software giants like Microsoft/Apple all have problems controlling "leaked" products then someone like the OPC would have very little chance of policing it.

Once something becomes available on the Internet it's pretty much out there for good. Copyright or no copyright.

Laws are hard to enforce on the internet. If I upload a file to a server in a different country then that file is subject to their laws and thus it becomes very difficult to hold anyone responsible for it.

Look at The Pirate Bay for example. The courts here in the UK issue court orders to major ISPs to block these sites, within hours the sites setup a new domain name for the site which isn't blocked and visitors are able to connect again.

If someone wants to share something then they will because they can.

 

[beavercreek]

The question I have is what will happen to individuals with valid passes from the current assessments and those on hold with TOCs.
Will they be required to sit the new process or will a current pass still be recognised?

 

[Aviator88]

beavercreek,

This is by no means definitive but my interpretation of logic would lead me to believe that if you have already passed a test for a specific 'characteristic', you will not be required to take the new test for that 'required trait' until your five years are up.

I.e. you take the GBT on the 12th September, but the new 'equivalent' comes out the day after. It would make sense for your pass to remain valid.

Surely there must be a healthy honeymoon period involved in all this, I can't see how it would work by dovetailing it.

p.s. Yes, wishful thinking on my part!

 

[FlamTap]

Laws are hard to enforce on the internet. ... If someone wants to share something then they will because they can.

Exactly! We now live in an age of almost total freedom of shared information. It's very easy to write a piece of software anonymously and make it available on the Internet for all to download.

Add to that the difficulty and expense of proving and prosecuting cases of copyright infringement. Most (not all) copyright prosecutions are treated as civil rather than criminal, and the only individuals likely to be bothered by this are large companies (like "How to become...") who actually profit from their products and, therefore, have something to lose. Individuals writing practice software and releasing it into the public domain free of charge are pretty much fireproof.

 

[Firestarter]

Yes they are changing!! I took my assessments last week and thankfully passed them but the assessor there confirmed that they will change!! "how to be" have already got the practice material available to order, how accurate they will be to the actual tests you will take are another matter as I can't see how they would know what they will be until they are released!!

Not sure if you get you're two lives again but I have also heard that this will be the case!!

The only thing different on ''how to become'' is the ATAVT test. Everything else is still the same practice material from years ago.

 

[TDK]

There was a link posted sometime back here pointing towards an RSSB document relating to the new tests. In it I am sure it said the slate would be wiped clean.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Sorry I don't buy that. Concentration can be improved over time with enough effort.

Concentration can be improved but assertiveness cannot. The same as the results can be improved by cheating at tests but your natural assertiveness cannot.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Going back to the original question, about previous failed candidates, whilst the slate may be wiped in theory:

1. If you've failed an aptitude test for train driving twice before, the odds on you passing a similar test aren't great.

2. There will be nothing to stop TOC's asking if you've undertaken train driver testing before, at the application stage.

3. There is a substantial cost involved, in testing candidates.

4. It does not make business sense, to pay out to test those who have failed the original tests, as they are unlikely to pass the new ones either.

 

[PeteH]

... as there will be a lack of practice material available for the new tests.

Presumably a 'practice pack' will be sent out to all those who's applications make it through the first sift. That will be sufficient, as indeed it was before.

 

[Beveridges]

Researching and practicing tests is not cheating.

The definition of cheating is a trick, or an act of dishonesty, to gain an unfair advantage.

Using practice downloads on the Internet is none of that!!



Thought I'd add my contribution to this subject even though it doesn't even matter to me in the slightest whether you would call it cheating or not. I saw the tests off years ago. Another completely unbiased view by myself.