What do we want from the "New" Caledonian Sleeper

[waynenm1]

From perusing these posts I wonder if sleepers similar to those used on VIA's Canadian might not be suitable with their multiple accommadations: upper and lower berths, roomettes (single rooms), bedrooms (double rooms), compartments (a double, but larger than a bedroom), and drawing rooms (triple room).

http://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/our-fleet/chateau-sleeping-car
http://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/our-fleet/manor-sleeping-car

 

[ainsworth74]

Though of course a fair bit of VIA Rail's sleeper stock was originally for use in the UK as international Nightstar services...

 

[34D]

If we surveyed 500 typical business executives (who'd never travelled by sleeper before) and asked them how they would like the interior of an overnight train to Aberdeen to look, would they spec out a business class plane, or would they spec out a hotel on wheels?

Let's suppose the sleeper had 1st class cabins, business class lie-flat beds, would/could it also have IC70 reclining seats as the economy offering?

Indeed, should sleepers move to a first/business/economy classification?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Indeed, should sleepers move to a first/business/economy classification?

Strictly speaking they already are a four class system:

1) 1st class.

2) Standard class sole occupancy. ( = Standard premium / Business I suppose )

3) Standard class sharing.

4) Seated. ( = Steerage!!! )

 

[waynenm1]

Were the VIA Nightstar cars ever in the UK? That is, VIA bought the Nightstar cars at a good price from Alstom to use in Canada as the 'Renaissance' service. I don't recall if the mods for use in Canada were made by Alstom, or after the cars came to Canada. AFAIK no Budd cars went to the UK for Nightstar service, altho the Alstom cars seem to be modeled after the Budd cars. wf.

 

[route:oxford]

I can see some first class cabins, perhaps with their own toilets and showers, at a premium price - as I expect there are still a fair few people that have plenty of money and demand travel of a certain standard. I know many companies now have a first class ban, but not all.

For most people, the fold flat beds and privacy from screens (as with most airplane first class offerings), would be more than enough - and allow more people to fit on the train - thus increasing revenue and profitability.

By all means also chuck in even cheaper bunks or more tilting chairs for even more occupancy.

Perhaps build a couple of "First Minister" coaches?

Also available to spot hire for attachment to the scheduled services...

Just imagine... You could have sex in the same bed* as Alex Salmond or Nicola Sturgeon!

(*Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that they have been intimate with each other!)

 

[Dumpton Park]

Three trips on the sleepers this summer - down and up with FGW, up with SCR lowland. Enjoyed all of them as examples of frankly old-style railway service. Almost like travelling on heritage services. The FGW service I think has a rather different market to the SCR, with more families booking double compartments (and using up all the water to the wash basins as a result!).

In the compartments the "issues" are
- random temperature changes at odd hours, a temperature control that does work, but needs about 30 minutes to have any effect
- noisy aircon (is it that bad on the day coaches and we just don't notice it?)
- strange positioning of switches and controls - why are there light switches almost in the roof?
- no intercom to host/steward
- no wifi
- no (UK) powerpoints (you can generally plug international chargers into the shaver points, so - to Poundland, folks!)
- no way to lock the door from outside when you toddle off to the bar
- TV screen? Useful if you can plug your own devices into it, perhaps.

(That lot sounds like they're awful. They're not at all, if you see most of the above as good old fashioned quirkiness.)

I wouldn't bother with ensuite toilets, either. They seem important but doing it would be very complex, I suspect. In Gran Class on Renfe trenhotels you get an ensuite *bathroom* and it's a nice thing to have but it's not something you use all that much or for very long! Seems a bit of a waste of valuable commercial space.

Keep:
The bedding. Actually quite good duvets and pillows throughout.
The breakfast on trays. Stainless steel pots of tea and whatnot are much less stressful than going to restaurant car and hoping for a seat as one does on Trenhotels.
The hosting. Professional, amiable and admirably laidback. Very, very good.

Elsewhere:
The FGW lounge isn't one it's a (nicely done out) FC carriage. The SCR lounges are very nice in a 1980s Pebble Mill at One kind of way, but those sofas do waste a lot of potential space. The menus need work too.
Boarding times (at least) need to be consistent to provide a good service. I'd standardise them to, say 1 hour before departure.
Waiting facilities are inconsistent too. Penzance is *not* a fun wait at all.

Services:
I'd really like a Scotland to the Southwest sleeper (The Riviera Scot?) to come back. (Is there any way it could be done with portions on the existing ones from Aberdeen and Inverness being combined with a portion waiting for them in Edinburgh then forming a third train south and vice versa? I think it'd be pretty popular with people (going) on holiday, not least the large numbers of intercontinetal tourists one finds touring the UK by rail these days.

B

 

[RichmondCommu]

If we surveyed 500 typical business executives (who'd never travelled by sleeper before) and asked them how they would like the interior of an overnight train to Aberdeen to look, would they spec out a business class plane, or would they spec out a hotel on wheels?

I'm afraid they'd suggest that it was a pointless exercise as they'd rather spend the evening with their family and sleep in their own bed. As a CEO, I know that would be my response.

However, go in search of the lower end student / backpacker / Inter-rail market and I think the response would be very different. For the first time in almost 25 years my wife and I used the Couchette service from La Tour De Carol this summer travelling 1st Class. We got thrown about a bit but it was cheap and our fellow occupants were friendly.

I personally think that Couchettes would be very successful in this country and with the necessary modifications could run through the tunnel. Forget about the business market though.

 

[ainsworth74]

- strange positioning of switches and controls - why are there light switches almost in the roof?

If you were in a solo berth that would be because they're the switches for the bed that was folded away above yours

- no way to lock the door from outside when you toddle off to the bar

Lock it with the door open, slam shut, door will be locked. When you want to get back in go find your berth attendant (which won't be hard) ask them to reopen it. Admittedly it's not the simplest system but it works.

 

[Dumpton Park]

Lock it with the door open, slam shut, door will be locked. When you want to get back in go find your berth attendant (which won't be hard) ask them to reopen it. Admittedly it's not the simplest system but it works.

That's the *absence* of a system! And it's not how any hotel in the world I've been in has worked and it's simply not good enough, whether you view the sleepers as at the Premier Inn or Park Inn ends of the market.

Shut door, take key card with cabin number on it from lock, go to bar, come back. Insert card in slot, open door. The Renfe/Elipsos trenhotel system.

B

 

[marks87]

That's the *absence* of a system! And it's not how any hotel in the world I've been in has worked and it's simply not good enough, whether you view the sleepers as at the Premier Inn or Park Inn ends of the market.

Shut door, take key card with cabin number on it from lock, go to bar, come back. Insert card in slot, open door. The Renfe/Elipsos trenhotel system.

B

A cheaper method might be mechanical coded entry locks - when you "check in" with the host, they ask you for a 4-digit number that they program in for you. Job done, and only takes a few seconds.

 

[Martin222002]

Thinking slightly outside the box maybe, but could there be a way in which the reservation (printed) could act as a key card, and only allow access to the berth the reservation is issued for, and anyone who doesn't have a printed copy of there reservation could have one printed for them?

 

[route:oxford]

Thinking slightly outside the box maybe, but could there be a way in which the reservation (printed) could act as a key card, and only allow access to the berth the reservation is issued for, and anyone who doesn't have a printed copy of there reservation could have one printed for them?

Yes

Either mag strip reader like most hotel doors to read the reservation coupon or ticket.

Or as more trail travellers start using IPSOS cards - it could use that system.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

A cabin door key system is already specified in the 83 page bidder tender document, is it not?

 

[The Ham]

by using the existing layout of beths, it could be possible to have a few tripple and single cabins without increasing te space required. This would be done by providing access to (say) the top bunk from one compartment which already has two berts in it, with the other beth being accessed from the next compartment.

Depending on how easy it would be to secure them it may even be possible to have the top bunk so that it was able to convert two neighboring compartments so that they could also stil be used as double compartments. However I'm not sure how feasable that would be.

In terms of cost, you could then charge (using points, where 100 points is what is charged for a berth in a double berth when two people are sharing) 160 points for a single berth compartment and 270 for a tripple birth compartment (90 points per person) then it would work out the TOC would take a little more than the would for 2 double births (430 points rather than 400 points), but would still make it fairly attractive to users.

 

[34D]

I'm afraid they'd suggest that it was a pointless exercise as they'd rather spend the evening with their family and sleep in their own bed. As a CEO, I know that would be my response.

We're all different. I work as an FD and for morning travel, my preference was _always_ to travel the night before and stay in a hotel and have a bit of me time away from moaning wife. Then again, I had a nasty habit of booking a double room just in case....

What would you do if you needed to be in London until 6pm/7pm one night and then had a 9am in Edinburgh the next morning?

First arrival from Kings Cross gets to Edinburgh at 11:22 (weekdays).

 

[Goldfish62]

This already exists though, first class cabins are solo occupancy and also if you book for yourself and someone else who is coming on the trip with you then you are put together, I think thats sufficient already.

Otherwise the Bargain Berth and Advance fares will have to double in price to make up for lost revenue from Solo occupancy in Berths!

On FGW all berths are automatically "solo" unless you book with some else. No supplements.

 

[Gathursty]

Just imagine... You could have sex in the same bed* as Alex Salmond or Nicola Sturgeon!

After reading an article about the former assistant to Dr Who's (Amy Pond/Karen Gillan) overnight journeys on the sleeper, I often gloated I slept in the same bed as her but alas without her presence!

I understand the need to draw money from business people but I would hate it to become the preserve of the wealthy with a token one seat or tiny standard for the hoi polloi. I admit it is a fine balance between satisfying ramblers/holidaymakers who don't want to waste a day travelling and people who can afford top dollar all the while satisfying the length constraints of the sleeper.

 

[Bald Rick]

What would you do if you needed to be in London until 6pm/7pm one night and then had a 9am in Edinburgh the next morning?

First arrival from Kings Cross gets to Edinburgh at 11:22 (weekdays).

Fly up, either after 2000 night before, or 0700 next day. Hotel as required. Simples!

 

[jopsuk]

You'd be tight making a 9am meeting in Edinburgh off the first flights- there's a Virgin from Heathrow and a BA from City both with an arrival time of 0820. 40 minutes from scheduled arrival to a city centre meeting?

 

[Bald Rick]

You'd be tight making a 9am meeting in London off the first flights- there's a Virgin from Heathrow and a BA from City both with an arrival time of 0820. 40 minutes from scheduled arrival to a city centre meeting?

Fortunately the question was about travelling the other way. Nevertheless, there is always Easyjet to Gatwick, or my preferred option to travel the night before and hotel. London has quite a few of them!

 

[34D]

Fly up, either after 2000 night before, or 0700 next day. Hotel as required. Simples!

Very fair comment.

How many current sleeper travellers would be happy with this?

So is there actually a market for the sleeper, or are we just paying out all these £m of subsidy to pander to the scottish voters?

Which country will pay if scotland devolves?

 

[edwin_m]

To my mind there are two sleeper markets, but (trying not to sound like a Premier Inn commercial) they are both wanting to get a good night's sleep:

The business traveller needs a standard equivalent to a modest hotel at a price that is competitive with evening train/flight plus overnight stay. In an ideal world that would mean an en-suite with shower but perhaps that could be compromised if there were good facilities at the arrival station. Non-negotiable in my opinion would be no sharing, proper security and all possible measures to ensure a good night's sleep - nothing like a rough night before an important meeting to make someone vow never to use it again.

I'm with other posters in believing that stacked bunks or perhaps couchettes would be best for the leisure market keeping the price down while trying to get a reasonable number of passengers into a limited train length. These might have curtains to each bunk for a measure of privacy plus lockers for valuables. I'm less sure about the airline first class bed idea, as compared to an airliner the staff to passenger ratio will be lower and there is also the issue of disturbance at intermediate stops. The types of people who might consider paying for this would probably want their own compartment.

As to stops, there is a balance between providing a service that attracts riders and revenue, and disrupting the sleep of those who don't need them. However I would have thought Birmingham was a good bet for both sleepers because it serves a major catchment and the times there would be more civilised than a station further north. The Lowland might need to run north earlier and south later to give a better time at Birmingham, spending more time sitting in Glasgow/Edinburgh and less in London.

For the Highland (only) a stop for NW England is sensible and Crewe has connections from Liverpool, Manchester and North Wales as well as - again - having better timings than somewhere further north. I don't buy the suggestion that Birmingham passengers should change at Crewe, because the extra hour or so to make this journey is an hour's lost sleep. It seems to me that Preston, Carlisle and Carstairs stops could be omitted as I can't imagine people would want to board or alight at these times.

 

[jopsuk]

Fortunately the question was about travelling the other way. Nevertheless, there is always Easyjet to Gatwick, or my preferred option to travel the night before and hotel. London has quite a few of them!

I seem to have written "London" when I meant "Edinburgh".

 

[Liam]

For all those saying instead of the sleeper just fly, remember the significant proportion of the population who are scared of flying. I'm not particularly fond of flying myself, though I do it now and then, which is why most of my travels are on the ground or by sea.

 

[Butts]

I realise I am probably going to be ridiculed....but when has that ever stopped me

It would be nice if some provision could be made for smokers which does not impinge on non-smoking travellers.

Perhaps a couple of "Smoking Berths" or some other facility.

I live in Falkirk and could get a sleeper directly to London but 8 hours without a smoke puts me off before the prices do

 

[Geezertronic]

I realise I am probably going to be ridiculed....but when has that ever stopped me

It would be nice if some provision could be made for smokers which does not impinge on non-smoking travellers.

Perhaps a couple of "Smoking Berths" or some other facility.

I live in Falkirk and could get a sleeper directly to London but 8 hours without a smoke puts me off before the prices do

I don't see that it should be possible (or see the reason why it should be). If you are on a plane for 8 hours (or even 6 hours with an hour at each end for arrivals/departures) you wouldn't be able to smoke so would that mean that you'd only fly to destinations that are within "smoking range"?

 

[gordonthemoron]

I realise I am probably going to be ridiculed....but when has that ever stopped me

It would be nice if some provision could be made for smokers which does not impinge on non-smoking travellers.

Perhaps a couple of "Smoking Berths" or some other facility.

I live in Falkirk and could get a sleeper directly to London but 8 hours without a smoke puts me off before the prices do

This reminds of a sleeper I took in Finland last year. The train had a smoking compartment (room) in the carriage next to the buffet. This smoking room had no seats and was packed like sardines with a mixture of heavy metal fans and oaps. There was so much smoke in there that you couldn't see the ceiling

 

[jon0844]

For all those saying instead of the sleeper just fly, remember the significant proportion of the population who are scared of flying. I'm not particularly fond of flying myself, though I do it now and then, which is why most of my travels are on the ground or by sea.

I'm not scared of flying, but I do find a lot of the process of flying to be a pain in comparison to rail.

Don't get me wrong. I've flown loads of times. I can clear security in seconds, being fully prepared, but this usually results in me being really early (and in 95% of cases, I'm not going business/first to use a lounge). I can't risk leaving it too late to get to an airport, and then there's the issue of getting to the airport.

I'm lucky that there's a train at 0420 from Hatfield, and I can then get over to Heathrow for around 0600. Of course, using HEX, there's quite a hefty cost of taking the train to Heathrow when you're in a rush. Buses are cheaper, but slower.. and taxis are also very costly and you risk delays on the M25 even at that time.

By comparison, if you're taking a sleeper at 10-11pm, it's very likely to be an easy and pretty calm trip to the station. It's off-peak and sounds hassle-free, in terms of having to arrive to clear security and wait around.

That's also leaving out all the bother of having to keep stuff switched off during take-off and landing, and not necessarily having an in-flight Wi-Fi service (compared to just using your mobile as normal on a train).

 

[waynenm1]

I'd reschedule the meeting to 1330.