FGW to ditch Adelantes?

[Max]

Interesting article in the Independent today:

High-speed trains shunted aside at cost of millions

Published: 09 September 2007

First Great Western, the train operating company owned by First Group, is to ditch its new high-speed trains in favour of 30-year-old Intercity 125s.

The company's Adelante trains, which run between London Paddington and the West Country, have proved to be so unreliable that they are to be replaced at a cost of tens of millions of pounds by 125s, used on UK railways since the 1970s.

http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/article2944296.ece

When will the shuffle occur? I thought that they would be staying until at least December 2008. And I wonder where they will head off to when they do go.

 

[Donny Dave]

There is quite a few rumours about the 180s doing the rounds, so it's take your pick as to which one you believe ....

Latest rumour is that they are staying until December 2008 now ....

 

[Dennis]

AFAIK, the Adelantes were originally due to go when the GW HST refurbishment was complete, i.e. Dec 2007. However, departure of the 180's has been deferred for a year, possibly longer (there has been discussion about this on other threads). I guess they will end up staying as long as FGW need them, other potential operators no doubt looking at Desiros as an alternative to 180's.

BTW, anyone know how the MPC figures for 180's stack up against Voyagers?

re the report in the IoS,

"In 1973, an Intercity train, known as an HST, set a world-record train speed of 143.2mph. More than 30 years on and trains in the UK have yet to approach that speed on a scheduled route. The locomotives were originally envisaged as a stop-gap while British Rail developed tilting trains. These were finally introduced only a few years ago by Virgin Rail on its Cross Country franchise."

What some bad reporting.....what speed do Eurostar services now run at?? BR developed tilting trains with Virgin?? HST locomotives??

 

[me123]

At December 2008, is the rumoured move up North (shared pool of FSR and TPE) still being rumored?

The rumor was, IIRC, that they would displace Inverness 170s and run between GLC and MAN. This would allow a huge cascade of trains which eventually allows more 156s units, in theory, to be available for use.

 

[djw1981]

RAIL 573 says:

The Class 180 Adelante's are definitely being handed back to theis ROSCO, FGW Fleet Engineer Andy Mellors has told RAIL, although he admitted that the 180's could be staying an extra few weeks with the TOC.

The 14 five-car DMU's owned by Angel trains were due to be handed back on Dec 8, however delays in the HST carriage refurbishment programme is causing FGW to rethink: "We could start the new december timetable without any Adelantes, but that would mean we would have to pull some vehicles out of Derby or Ilford, or we can have a fully refurbished HST fleet in service for the start of the timetable, with a few Adelante''s covering for HST's which are still being refurbished" he said. "But do we want to pay for Adelantes until February, which is when teh last HST would be finished?"

That seems fairly certain. Further up the same page, FGW is complaining at not having enough DMU's to cover the Bristol area, since they are due to lose 13 158's to Northern, also in December. But Andy Mellors wouldn't comment on the rumours about 142 to Bristol!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At December 2008, is the rumoured move up North (shared pool of FSR and TPE) still being rumored?

The rumor was, IIRC, that they would displace Inverness 170s and run between GLC and MAN. This would allow a huge cascade of trains which eventually allows more 156s units, in theory, to be available for use.

To be fair, with only 14units, the fleet maintenance issues etc, the cascade would be limited, but could also be linked to the plans for Kilmarnock to go to a half hourly and improved services on the Glasgow Central Diesel services to Edinburgh, Stranraer and Newcastle, as well as 156 strengthening of the West highland services.

The issues would be 180 failures, and the fact that capacity is less than a 2x3car 170 or a 3 x 2 car 158, and only marginally more than a 170+158 combo.

Since the reliability would be an issue, I doubt that the proposed franchise sharing pool with TPE is likely, because any reliability ssues would result in a fight over delay minutes and PPM.

 

[support-uk-rail]

FGW have announced they will, no matter what, be keeping 2 sets of Adelantes for spares.

Adelante's were a bad investment all along, yet in the beginning, admit it, we all thought they'd be as good as the voyagers, didn't we!

 

[me123]

Adelante's were a bad investment all along, yet in the beginning, admit it, we all thought they'd be as good as the voyagers, didn't we!

Some could argue that they were

I've heard they are quite nice trains inside, but they have been a huge disaster, which has been a shame for FGW who just can't seem to get things right.

 

[rail-britain]

I've had a good rummage through the DfT website
FGW are contracted on their Class 180s until 31 December 2007
Angel Trains will then be taking the units back
FGW then have some exposure to cancellations and delays
The DfT is allowing FGW to increase its core fleet to offset this (which I assume means acquiring other HST sets from elsewhere?!)

Angel Trains are in discussion with First Group for reallocating these units to routes where they would be more beneficial (although how you can ask that on such an unreliable unit is beyond me!)
Everyones money is on First ScotRail receiving them, as an order for "new" DMUs will be required within 12 months, but receiving these units will allow a cascade of Class 170 and 158s on to other routes for strengthening, and ultimately increasing the number of Class 156s for SPT

 

[me123]

Everyones money is on First ScotRail receiving them, as an order for "new" DMUs will be required within 12 months...

I am, as usual, behind with everything, but could you maybe say why/where the new DMUs are needed, because this is the first I've heard of it.

(nb, This is only because I'm so far out of the loop, that the loop is like a dot to me, and is not intended to be sarcastic or rude in anyway).

 

[djw1981]

Well, there are plans to strengthen Fife Circle trains (currently 170 & 158.), also a need to increase off-peak capacity on the Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk line (170 currently). Aberdeen and Inverness to Central Belt trains (15.8 & 170) are often very full if 3car, so strengthening to 5 car would be good. There is a case for separating the Oban and mallaig trains to allow longer trains to both (156). The Bathgate services and Dunblane services from Edinburgh are also quite busy and strengthening to 5 or 6 cars in the peak would be desirable. Expecially as the Bathgate line is soon be getting a more frquent service of EMU's and passenger numebrs are rising in anticipation.

There is a campaign for increased frequency of Inverness-Anerdeen (158.) services, and cross Aberdeen commuter trains, an increase to Invernet commuter trains looks likely. A Dundee timetable recast later this year / 2008 will lead to increased commuter routes across the city being available.

In the SPT area, Kilmarnock is going to become a 30 minute service, clockface I think), associated with a recast of the Stranraer and Newcastle/Carlisle services. The Glasgow-Edinburgh via Shotts is due to get a new semi-fast service, in addition to the hourly stopper. These services at Peak times are also very crowded, and strengthening from 4 to 6 car on the Shotts service would be welcome. There is also demand to strengthen or increase the frequency of services to East Kilbride.

In summary, the only diesel services not looking for strengthening are the Newcraighall's, the Whifflet's and the Paisley Canal services.

Displaced 170 would be used to support the Express routes and suburban up to Dunblane and Bathgate, with 158's boosting the North Highland and Fife Lines, and 156's to Strathclyde. 158 or 170 can operate the Shotts route, but this would need diagram changes at the Strathclyde end, because 156's cannot operate on some of teh Strathclyde lines due to Gauging issues.

 

[rail-britain]

There is a requirement for eight extra Class 170s for the Edinburgh - Shotts - Glasgow route (which is the first phase of this route upgrade)
This will release five Class 156s, to SPT
This order has to be placed before July 2008
Reading through the lines, a cascade of rolling stock, releasing Class 170s for this

Following on from that, an order for ten EMUs for the Edinburgh - Bathgate - Airdrie, and Paisley - Glasgow Airport, extensions and electrifications
This order has to be placed before the end of 2008
Transport Scotland will be adding the Class 314 replacement to this, making a total of 32 units
This will displace Class 320 units from most of this route on to what most of the Class 314s are currently operating (and this will pretty much restrict Class 320s to Neilston / Cathcart / Newton only)
However, included in this cascade is an upgrade of Glasgow - Ayr stations to allow 8 car trains
Reading through the lines, a cascade of rolling stock, releasing Class 334s for this

 

[Jim]

Altough when introduced the '180's were unrealible, at least there are comfertable. Infact, in terms of seats, I find them Comfier than Voyagers and the re-furbed HST's!

 

[kestrel]

The 180's are far more reliable these days thanks to the boys at OOC getting to grips with the many faults!, about a year ago it was common place to see them running with an engine or 2 (0r 3!) out, not seen it much at all past 6 months.

From what i hear they have a leasing contract that runs out on December 2007 on these, but with the HST re-engineering project running slightly behind schedule(coaching stock) they FGW are considering keeping some 180's beyond this until all the re-engineering is completed, as far as is known the intention is to still off lease the 180's soon as.

Shame Alstom never had any quality control when they built these units, as they are far the superior product pax wise compared with the 220/221, much more room inside, better seating albeit with the same story that not all seats align with windows (old news now!)

 

[Woody]

Read yesterday in one of the railway mags that FGW wanted to keep the 180s for a few months beyond this December handback deadline but Leasing company Angel would not agree to a short lease extention and want a 12 months lease or nothing on the 180s which FGW would not agree to, hence FGW are handing them back this December.

 

[Smudger]

i heard a little rumer that virgin wanted them for the holyhead route

 

[332 > 444]

Prehaps if there arent any HST for the NXEC London - Lincoln Route they could go on there....

 

[westcoaster]

i heard a little rumer that virgin wanted them for the holyhead route

dont think this would be true as iirc the class 180 do not tilt, and that is why 4 car voyagers are not used on this service.

 

[Mintona]

dont think this would be true as iirc the class 180 do not tilt, and that is why 4 car voyagers are not used on this service.

Though can you imagine passenger's faces on a 4 car Voyager to Holyhead? The vestibules are full on 5 car Voyagers, and there aren't many seats on Pendolinos! I think that may have more to do with it than the tilt.
I think the 180s should be used on Manchester - Glasgow services, but they'll probably go somewhere that doesnt need them, coz the DfT is like that ad:

 

[Craig]

Regarding covering First Scotrail coverage with these units, there was a study linking improvement in journey times to the use of voyager units. As they can reach higher speeds they should in theory be able to maintain better speeds over steep climbs that any other stock operating on the line allowing far better journey times between Perth and Inverness. 180s perform quite well and the higher speeds may perhaps see them being used on this line to gain faster times?

The capacity and expansion on the Highland Mainline would be greatly welcomed, turbostars struggle at times with capacity and there is a demand for First Class as demonstrated on GNER's service.

 

[djw1981]

Re Highland Main Line to Inverness: But a 180 has fewer seats than a 170/158 combo, so although you gain First class and a Buffet, you lose the total seating capacity...

Re Lincoln: Again capacity could be an issue. Also, at only 15 miles from Lincoln to the ECML, how much would electrification actually cost?

 

[Craig]

Most trains I observe on the highland mainline operate as single 170, I'm sure 158/170 combo has more seats but if 180s operated the Inverness' constantly at least we'd know it's 5 car rather than hope it may have a 158 tied on.

It's a long distance service and a buffet service would do well, a lot of people would probably travel first if they knew there were better chances of getting a seat, not worth paying for on a 158 and sometimes slim chances of getting one on a 170.

 

[First ScotRail]

Some of the busiest trains on the highland mainline are 170+158 for example the 10:52 INV-EDB

 

[Gizmogle]

"We don't have enough trains"
"...Lets get rid of our best ones!"

I love FGWs thinking

 

[devon_metro]

Its crazy. FGW are already using virtually every HST they own and for them to lose the Adelentes.

I don't quite see where it adds up :?

 

[theblackwatch]

Technically, FGW will have a further 6 or 7 HST sets available from December, as that is the number of sets which are normally out of traffic at present being refurbished. However, I doubt the refurbishment programme will be anywhere near completion by then so I can see them struggling. Its also worth remembering that they have also snapped up a lot of additional HSTs in the past couple of years, such as the 5 sets bought by First Group and the former Cotswold sets.

 

[djw1981]

"We don't have enough trains"
"...Lets get rid of our best ones!"

I love FGWs thinking

They are surely the worst.... the HST's being the best, unless Sprinters are your thing...

 

[Gizmogle]

They are surely the worst.... the HST's being the best, unless Sprinters are your thing...

Yeah, HSTs are the best, but then with the HD coaches and MTUs coming in by the bucketful, it kinda sucks.

180s are great though! I've only actually been on them twice, but they are really nice! Plus they have the audio coach too, which is a great idea.

 

[djw1981]

What is the audio coach? Like a plane with piped muzak?

 

[class 313]

Re Lincoln: Again capacity could be an issue. Also, at only 15 miles from Lincoln to the ECML, how much would electrification actually cost?

EMT could use them for their London - Lincoln service which is 97% Diesel only

 

[Flying Snail]

What is the audio coach? Like a plane with piped muzak?

At-Seat audio similar to that on Pendos and Voyagers.

The 3-car 175s also have audio in one half of the centre car, not sure what the reason for that is.