All Lines Rover - Excesses for the limitations?

[sparks2000]

Hi,

It's that time of year when I start to think about taking an ALR tour. Pre the restrictions the ticket was superb value but now that they are limited to post 10am at Birmingham New Street and London I find it difficult to get all the journeys in that I would like to take. I find it hard to stay away from home so the later than 10am start requirement for journeys ex BHM is fairly limiting.

In the past it was generally agreed that excess/split tickets were valid and were unlikely to be an issue.

Has there been any change to attitudes to paying the excess of the ALR fare to overcome the limitations? E.g. Is it still valid to purchase a ticket Birmingham to Cheltenham to allow onward journey to Penzance before 10am (are the pre 7am trains really high demand)? I don't mind paying extra to use these peak services but I don't want to pay more than necessary.

Similarly can I excess an inbound or outbound to London on the train or must I hold a ticket purchased before boarding for the excess portion?

Is it valid to make the excess part of the journey in standard and then move to 1st when the ALR becomes valid?

 

[harry42]

Good look doing ALR! I had fun but had a 'heated debate' with Northern Rail on the hope valley line about what a bloody ALR was!

 

[CC 72100]

Just remember it is not all London long distance terminals - there are no restrictions for Paddington or Liverpool Street. (and some of the other ones to be fair, but there's nothing interesting out of them )

And if Birmingham - London is the one you're after, then there are no restrictions on Chiltern, and you could use London Midland free of restrictions from New Street.

 

[island]

In my opinion Birmingham to University would be enough in the above situation. The ALR is a leisure travel pass so the train does not need to call at the station where you change from one ticket to the next.

It is fine to start in standard class and move to first later.

 

[OwlMan]

In my opinion Birmingham to University would be enough in the above situation. The ALR is a leisure travel pass so the train does not need to call at the station where you change from one ticket to the next.

It is fine to start in standard class and move to first later.

That is open to debate - the ticket is not valid for BOARDING at New Street by splitting at University you are still boarding at New Street.

 

[island]

I agree it is open to debate, which is why I prefixed my post with "in my opinion" In my opinion, you use the single ticket to board at Birmingham N St, not the ALR. A ticket to Cheltenham Spa or wherever the first stop is doesn't exactly change that as you have still boarded at Birmingham N St.

 

[bb21]

This has cropped up before.

Strictly speaking, yes, it is valid with the University example, however the more this is advertised, and the more this is "abused", the more likelihood that the rules will be tightened further. Be careful what you wish for.

I will leave it at that.

@OP. I will send you a PM.

 

[yorkie]

Hi,

It's that time of year when I start to think about taking an ALR tour. Pre the restrictions the ticket was superb value but now that they are limited to post 10am at Birmingham New Street and London I find it difficult to get all the journeys in that I would like to take. I find it hard to stay away from home so the later than 10am start requirement for journeys ex BHM is fairly limiting.

But if you read what the restriction actually says, it's pretty easy to get around it.

The All Lines Rail Rover is not valid for boarding or alighting train services operated by CrossCountry, East Coast, East Midlands Trains, or Virgin Trains before 10:00 Mondays to Fridays at the following stations:

• Birmingham New Street
• Bedford
• London Euston
• London Kings Cross
• London St Pancras International
• Luton
• Luton Airport Parkway
• Milton Keynes Central
• Stevenage
• Watford Junction

No restrictions apply on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays.

So if you want to do Birmingham - London, simply take Chiltern, and get a better seat in the process.

In the past it was generally agreed that excess/split tickets were valid and were unlikely to be an issue.

Has there been any change to attitudes to paying the excess of the ALR fare to overcome the limitations? E.g. Is it still valid to purchase a ticket Birmingham to Cheltenham to allow onward journey to Penzance before 10am (are the pre 7am trains really high demand)? I don't mind paying extra to use these peak services but I don't want to pay more than necessary.

Absolutely. If you are spending a few days in the South West, don't forget a South West Rover is good value and Cheltenham is actually in the area.

Similarly can I excess an inbound or outbound to London on the train or must I hold a ticket purchased before boarding for the excess portion?

If you wanted to go down the excess fare route, it is unclear what the excess would be, but perhaps it would be the difference between the off peak, and peak, fares, in which case an excess fare would be a very expensive way of doing it, and best avoided.

Is it valid to make the excess part of the journey in standard and then move to 1st when the ALR becomes valid?

Do you mean use a combination of tickets, rather than an excess? If so, I don't see why not.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In my opinion Birmingham to University would be enough in the above situation. The ALR is a leisure travel pass so the train does not need to call at the station where you change from one ticket to the next.

It is fine to start in standard class and move to first later.

Agreed.

I heard indirectly from someone that the TOCs are not too bothered about enthusiasts doing this, but if it became widespread knowledge and business passengers started doing this, then the TOCs would look at changing the rules.

Additionally, some Guards are not fully familiar with Condition 19 (there's no requirement for people who check tickets to be trained in the NRCoC) and may, incorrectly, claim it's not valid "unless the train calls".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree it is open to debate, which is why I prefixed my post with "in my opinion" In my opinion, you use the single ticket to board at Birmingham N St, not the ALR. A ticket to Cheltenham Spa or wherever the first stop is doesn't exactly change that as you have still boarded at Birmingham N St.

I agree. By that interpretation, we would then have the absurd situation of a passenger exiting and re-boarding the same service in order to make the combination "valid". But there is no such requirement.

"COMBINATION OF TICKETS – RETAIL COMPLIANCE AND UNDERSTANDING OF CONDITION 17 OF NATIONAL RAIL CONITIONS OF CARRIAGE (NRCoC)

Following a recent Court case there has been some confusion over the sale of more than one ticket for use on a train journey. This item is intended to clarify the position.
When a customer asks for the cheapest ticket you are not obliged to offer them a combination of tickets. However, if a customer specifically asks for a particular combination of tickets you must sell those tickets, as long as your office has the necessary fares manuals, ticket issuing system and/or reservation facilities to do so.
NRCoC 17b allows a passenger to use two or more tickets as long as they cover the entire journey and the train the passenger is travelling on calls at the station where they change from one ticket to another. There is no requirement for the passenger to change trains or momentarily step onto the platform."

(note that the Condition has changed since this was published, from Condition 17 to Condition 19).

 

[crosscity]

As the restriction is on Cross Country services, you can travel to Cheltenham Spa earlier from New St on the following:

Birmingham New St dep 7.59 Worcester Foregate St arr 8.41 (LM)
Worcester Foregate St dep 9.03 Cheltenham Spa arr 9.33 (FGW)

This allows you to catch the 10.00 to Plymouth (ex New St at 9.20).

 

[Class 92]

Why and who put all those restrictions on anyway and whats the reason for it?

 

[bb21]

Why and who put all those restrictions on anyway and whats the reason for it?

Have a look at some season ticket prices on brfares and you should see why.

 

[Class 92]

So it was put on because people who live in Birmingham and work in London for example used the ALR insted. It is a bit unfair for people who are on holiday here and also rail enthusiasts but suppose the railway are not bothered bout us all they want to money and not many complaints!

 

[TOCDriver]

Why and who put all those restrictions on anyway and whats the reason for it?

You should also look at the price of an anytime 1st class fares on the WCML at 300 pounds plus for the day. If you didn't put restrictions on a 7 day or 14 day ALR, private business would have a field day in cost savings and the likes of Virgin would lose monumental amounts of money

 

[RochdalePioneers]

In essence Her Majesty's Secretary of State for Transport bought an ALR, did a well publicised trip on it and got it mentioned in the press. This put at risk the train operators ability to sell the most expensive fares so they applied restrictions to it.

A pity that they didn't just copy the likes of SET or FGW by advertising restrictions that don't actually exist and aren't enforcible. That would have been much better.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Class 92]

A pity that they didn't just copy the likes of SET or FGW by advertising restrictions that don't actually exist and aren't enforcible. That would have been much better.

Does that mean the FGW rail rangers/rovers have made up restrictions or am I reading it wrong.

 

[JamesRowden]

A pity that they didn't just copy the likes of SET or FGW by advertising restrictions that don't actually exist and aren't enforcible. That would have been much better.

Does that mean the FGW rail rangers/rovers have made up restrictions or am I reading it wrong.

FGW were advertising that 'off-peak tickets are not valid on this service' on afternoon Paddington peak services when some off-peak tickets were valid (e.g. Reading-Leeds).

 

[Class 92]

Oh right take it that's to stop overcrowding?

 

[island]

No, it's because FGW had been trying to oversimplify the peak restrictions.

The notices now say something to the effect of "FGW off-peak and super off-peak tickets may not be valid on this service; tickets with connections may have different restrictions, consult a member of staff"

 

[sparks2000]

Thanks to everyone providing information in their posts. Especially the tip to consider via Worcester. I will definitely do this at least one day - just to try the route - it has been a few years since I went via Worcester. Even so, that's still quite a late start.

London - Chiltern provide an excellent quality of train accommodation, it has to be tried to be believed. They are my preferred provider London but going via Moor street adds quite a lag to my journey time vs Sandwell or Wolverhampton. Some early trains which I would normally avoid (peak hours) start in Kidderminster so I will be using one of their services.

Getting out of London early is as much a problem as getting to London - to get from the Midlands north for Brum to the East Coast routes is restricted on the 10am timings with East Cost.

In terms of "abuse" - In my opinion the intention of the wording, rather than the letter of it is to discourage peak train usage by leisure travellers and to make it impossible to use the Rover as an alternative to the peak business tickets. Taking a split ticket to University feels a bit too close to abuse. I will stick to an advance to Cheltenham so that I am, after paying the extra fare, no less entitled to use my Rover than a Cheltenham resident would be. It would be nice if the TOCs would consider an early cap on the ticket - e.g. not valid 07h30 to 10h00 rather than before 10h00 - I don't mind getting up early to avoid the peak trains.

 

[crosscity]

Thanks to everyone providing information in their posts. Especially the tip to consider via Worcester. I will definitely do this at least one day - just to try the route - it has been a few years since I went via Worcester. Even so, that's still quite a late start.

London - Chiltern provide an excellent quality of train accommodation, it has to be tried to be believed. They are my preferred provider London but going via Moor street adds quite a lag to my journey time vs Sandwell or Wolverhampton. Some early trains which I would normally avoid (peak hours) start in Kidderminster so I will be using one of their services.

If the Worcester route doesn't get you to the South West early enough, how about:

Birm Moor St d 7:11 Leam Spa a 7:23 (Chiltern ex-Stourbridge 6:38)
Leam Spa d 7:59 Reading a 9:08 (CC)
Reading d 9:35 Taunton a 10:53 (FGW) goes forward to Plymouth a 12:27

This gives you an earlier start, a ride on a superior Chiltern train and gets you to the South West before the 9:20 CC from New St and gives you a nice ride along the Berks & Hants.

 

[LexyBoy]

[...] vs Sandwell or Wolverhampton.

For clarity, you are permitted to board Virgin (or XC) services at these stations at any time - so long as you don't alight at any of the barred stations before 1000. Going to the South West, you can thus use the xx16 XC Manchester-SW services from Wolves which do not require a change at New Street.

Coventry is similarly not restricted so you are free to use VT/XC trains from there (and LM is valid at any time to get there).

 

[High Dyke]

You should also look at the price of an anytime 1st class fares on the WCML at 300 pounds plus for the day. If you didn't put restrictions on a 7 day or 14 day ALR, private business would have a field day in cost savings and the likes of Virgin would lose monumental amounts of money

Oh dear. We can't have 'fat cat' shareholders being out of pocket...

Am considering one for the Mem & I next year. As mentioned there are valid ways around the restrictions...something we would both look to utilise.

 

[Goatboy]

You should also look at the price of an anytime 1st class fares on the WCML at 300 pounds plus for the day. If you didn't put restrictions on a 7 day or 14 day ALR, private business would have a field day in cost savings and the likes of Virgin would lose monumental amounts of money

Perhaps if they didn't charge hilarious prices for such tickets - prices so hilarious they cannot sell more than single figure numbers per week I'd imagine - this wouldn't be a problem.

It's totally right that there is a problem when a ticket as expensive as the ALR is used in leiu of conventional tickets but the problem isn't that the ALR isn't restricted enough..