Wrongful issuing of metro penalty fare

[bakedbean]

Hello,

This is actually an issue regarding a journey on the metrolink tram in manchester.

On 14/08/2013 I was issued with a 'Standard Fare' £100 ticket at Abraham Moss metro station (a fine by any other name). I believe that this was unjustified for the following reasons. I had alighted the tram and had clearly left the station when I disposed of my ticket outside the station. I was told to return to the platform by a police officer or else I would be arrested! I had already left the station! I returned to be asked by the inspector if I could show him a ticket. This was impossible as I had already disposed of the ticket upon exiting the station and I flatly refused to search the bin outside the station on the grounds that it would be unhygienic to do so and that they should have asked me for my ticket before I left the station. I was told by the police officer that he would arrest me for fraud if I did not return to the station. Am I right in saying that this is a civil matter and not a criminal matter and so therefore he would not have been justified in arresting me for fraud anyway? I was then issued with a £100 fare. I am incensed by this. I have NEVER taken the tram without first purchasing a valid ticket and It is my intention to appeal the fare on the grounds that I had already left the station and that the onus should surely be on metrolink to make the inspection before the passenger has left the station and that I was forced to return to the station under duress. Furthermore, my signature on the ticket is obscured and looks as though it hasn't been written properly.

It seems unbelievable that this could have happened. For a police officer to have arbitrarily told me to return to the station after I'd already left and then for me to have been fined. I'm livid!

Basically it is my intention to appeal. I was wondering if you could offer some insight into how I could go about appealing this and whether or not an illegible signature on my copy of the ticket would render it void.

Thank you

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Interesting. The relevant requirement is as detailed in Metrolink's Conditions of Carriage, as follows...

5. A passenger found to be on a Metrolink vehicle, or on a station platform having just alighted from a vehicle, without a ticket or pass or other approved authorisation to travel valid for his/her journey will be liable to pay a Standard Fare of £100 or such other amount as may be determined by Transport for Greater Manchester from time to time and may be liable to prosecution.

Wonder if the OP was asked to stop by a Metrolink RPI before leaving the station platform and failed to do so?

 

[transportphoto]

An illegible signature can not invalidate the standard fare in its own right. I could sign my name as Bob Marley if I wanted to, signatures are the design of the person themselves. They're unique and do not have to reflect the persons name.

A good example of this would be a Doctor or Professors... How many of their signatures can you easily link back?

TP

 

[185]

Wonder if the OP was asked to stop by a Metrolink RPI before leaving the station platform and failed to do so?

Spot on.

 

[34D]

Spot on.

You can't jump to conclusions like that. The passenger states they had thrown their ticket away on leaving, which is a natural thing to do.

 

[bakedbean]

Firstly, I was not aware of having been asked for a ticket by an inspector. The first request was from a police officer who told me i would me i would be arrested if i did not return to the station. as mentioned i had already left the station and had disposed of my ticket. Isn't the onus on them to prove I was asked by an inspector to produce a ticket? secondly if coercion is used to get someone back to the station after the window of opportunity for the inspectors to ask you to produce a ticket has passed, wouldn't this invalidate the fine? In theory they could follow you all the way home before they ask you for a ticket? It just seems unjust to me. Thanks for the info regarding the signature.

 

[jon0844]

You might have still been on railway property. What I don't get is why you wouldn't go and fish out the ticket to save £100 and also get the opportunity to receive an apology.

The ticket must have been thrown away just seconds before so wouldn't exactly be at the bottom of a load of rubbish.

 

[tony6499]

You might have still been on railway property. What I don't get is why you wouldn't go and fish out the ticket to save £100 and also get the opportunity to receive an apology.

The ticket must have been thrown away just seconds before so wouldn't exactly be at the bottom of a load of rubbish.

That's what I would have done and insisted on a name to complain about once I had showed my ticket or you could have pointed to it in the bin and told them to retrieve it ?

 

[Oswyntail]

You might have still been on railway property. ....

From the item quoted above, it would seem you have to still be on the platform. Interesting difference from National rail.

 

[ian959]

Maybe it is just me, but the whole thing about the police officer suggests that there may be more to the story than we are being told?

 

[talltim]

Why did the police officer tell you to return to the platform?

 

[jon0844]

Was it a police officer or an RPI with a TOC warrant card?

 

[MCR247]

I think it would be helpful if we had the full story...

 

[pinguini]

Was it a police officer or an RPI with a TOC warrant card?

I'm given to understand that the Metrolink doesn't haveRPI's, just'Passenger Service Representatives'who do the revenue protection.

 

[185]

I'm given to understand that the Metrolink doesn't haveRPI's, just'Passenger Service Representatives'who do the revenue protection.

And four GMP officers in full uniform. Often.

 

[scrapy]

About 10 years ago, I was unable to find my Metrolink ticket when asked (when they were the tiny paper tickets). I was asked where I had boarded and asked to stand in front of a CCTV camera and the inspector confirmed with the control room that I had bought a ticket and I was allowed to go without a standard fare (despite the fact I could have passed the ticket to someone else). If the OP purchased their ticket at a Metrolink stop they could maybe email Metrolink with a photo of themselves and the time and station the ticket was purchased and ask if cameras to be checked.

Whilst Metrolink would have been well within their rights to have given me a Standard Fare they seem to only give them to people they genuinely suspect to have avoided their fares which is why I think there may be more to this story especially with police involvement.

 

[tony6499]

About 10 years ago, I was unable to find my Metrolink ticket when asked (when they were the tiny paper tickets). I was asked where I had boarded and asked to stand in front of a CCTV camera and the inspector confirmed with the control room that I had bought a ticket and I was allowed to go without a standard fare (despite the fact I could have passed the ticket to someone else). If the OP purchased their ticket at a Metrolink stop they could maybe email Metrolink with a photo of themselves and the time and station the ticket was purchased and ask if cameras to be checked.

Whilst Metrolink would have been well within their rights to have given me a Standard Fare they seem to only give them to people they genuinely suspect to have avoided their fares which is why I think there may be more to this story especially with police involvement.

If the CCTV hadn't shown him buying a ticket surely it would have shown him throwing it in the bin so the OP could always ask for that situation to be downloaded to verify his story ?

 

[185]

https://maps.google.com/?ll=53.5100...noid=TScJO5miGSRe7LCuD0sC_g&cbp=12,41.52,,0,0

Nearest bin to the station, which is not on the station is 170m away along an alleyway.

The bins in the college on the other side are in a locked compound.

Usain Bolt?

 

[Starmill]

I'm given to understand that the Metrolink doesn't haveRPI's, just'Passenger Service Representatives'who do the revenue protection.

And some teams from TfGM too?

 

[cuccir]

Is that an up-to-date view though? The station is quite a recent construction and I'm not familiar with the area.

Either way, only the original poster knows what happened. If he/she is lying, then hopefully they've worked out how easy it would be to pick holes in their story: they're better off just paying the £100 than trying to lie further.

If they are telling the truth and are not intending to pay the standard fare, then they should be aware that they may be prosecuted under the Metrolink Byelaws. As these differ from the standard railway byelaws, few of us would have much expertise in these and how common/easy prosecutions under them are. It may be best to seek the advice of a local specialist solicitor, though such advice may be expensive.

 

[Chapeltom]

I don't know what to believe in this case. I find the Metrolink RPIs very intimidating if I'm honest and I've never boarded without a valid ticket.

If the OP was so stupid as to have boarded a tram without a ticket and is looking to worm out of the standard fare, then I've little sympathy. RPIs get on almost randomly and can blitz a tram within a stop.

If the OP is of course telling the truth I hope they can get the matter resolved in their favour.

 

[tamesidedepot]

I use Abraham Moss Met on a regular basis and there have been some blocks on the Manchester bound platforms in the morning. Usually Metrolink staff and either BTP or GMP with them. I haven't taken that much notice as I travel out of Manchester in a morning and have a season.
I think there are some of the plastic bag bins around the platform, which only has the ramp and steps leading to the crossing point as exits from the platform.
There is a lot of fare evasion to/from this station, it is quite amusing to watch some try ok to hide from the Metrolink ticket checkers when they board at the staff halt, and are then marched off the tram at Victoria to be PFed

 

[bb21]

No speculation please. It is neither constructive nor helpful to the discussion.

 

[northwichcat]

When they do Metrolink RPI checks at Altrincham there is a Policeman with a radio put on the car park exit from platform 4 (which Northern Rail services depart from.) Presumably if someone alighting a tram is seen to get past the ticket checks on platform 1 (where the majority of Metrolink services arrive at and depart from) without showing a ticket and goes up the stairs to across to platform 4 they can radio across to the Policeman to ask them to go back.

 

[Starmill]

Sticking to facts, as of this afternoon, there are definitely bins on both platforms at Abraham Moss.

Perhaps we should T&W metro it with 'No Tickets' signs on them. The old ticket stock had a warning as part of the writing on the back to keep your ticket until after you leave the stop at your final destination. It might have been retainee on the newer ticket backs too.