What's the logic behind the Grand Central Class 180 coach formation?

[phil35]

B - C - E - F - D

I'm sure there must be a reason, but why is coach D out of place on all Grand Central 180s? As a passenger trying to find his seat once on board I find it incredibly confusing.

 

[SeanG]

Is it something to do with the 180s having First Class in the middle?

 

[43074]

Maybe to keep reservations consistent between HSTs and Adelantes??

The Meridians have a weird coach formation too, A - C - D - G on a 4-car unit to keep things consistent between 4- and 5-car Meridians.

 

[GNERman]

Keeps things consistent between the 180's and HST's.

If in doubt, ask a member of staff. It's also on the boards at some stations as of which end of the train Coach D is, and it's often announced by the onboard staff as to where it is situated.

 

[David Goddard]

Always thought it odd that the 180s have First Class in the second coach as opposed to at one end.

Voyager stock is completely jumbled:
Virgin Cl221s are formed A-B-C-D-E
First Class is E while the Quiet Coach is A

XC Cl220 Voyagers are formed A-C-D-F, with the 221s formed A-B-C-D-F
First Class is A, while the Quiet Coach is F.
Would have made more logic if First was coded F.

I believe that E was omitted pending the outcome of the now abandoned e-Voyager project

 

[Eagle]

XC Cl220 Voyagers are formed A-C-D-F, with the 221s formed A-B-C-D-F
First Class is A, while the Quiet Coach is F.
Would have made more logic if First was coded F.

It gets better if it's a double Voyager. The second unit will either be G-H-I-J-L or just G-I-J-L (with K being the missing letter for possible extension). And given the fact that XC Voyagers can end up any way round it's not uncommon to get services that go A-C-D-F-L-J-I-G or F-D-C-A-L-J-I-G.

 

[55018ballymoss]

The simple answer is that all the Adelantes were delivered with the first class coach as the second (or fourth) coach in a five coach formation to First Great Western from Alstom.
Since then no operator has bitten the bullet and refitted the trains, so that first class is at one end, probably due to the prohibitive cost involved, and low return on the investment involved.
Coach lettering for the reservation system is always a dark art, but keeping the same letters for standard and first class accommodation across the fleet is probably the lesser of two evils, rather than having a logical sequence for each train, but still causing confusion for the more occasional traveller...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The 180s were of course originally ordered by Great Western Trains (prior to the FirstGroup takeover of the original management 'buyout') to run South Wales services with 10-cars running to Cardiff and dividing with 5 continuing to Swansea (and occasionally beyond). There was also I believe a plan at one point for a follow-on order for North Western Trains/First NorthWestern for services from North Wales/Blackpool/others to London.

The rather severe 'teething problems' with the initial 180s (and of course pretty much all other early '3rd generation' Alstom units!) put paid to all that (and led to an extra summer of 47/8s and Mk2s running to Devon and Cornwall!) and the 180s eventually found limited use on Thames Valley and Exeter semi-fasts before being sent off-lease and picked up by the open access operators (and Northern of course!).

As for the location of first class, I imagine there was an initial reason for not using a driving car, perhaps to do with ratios of 1st to standard and the problem of crumple zones in the driving cars.

One advantage of this layout was that the rear car in each set was the isolated standard car and many passengers at Paddington, being used to HSTs, assumed this was 1st class (the antimacassars saying 'First' probably helped too!). This meant on arrival at Reading at 7pm I had the pick of the seats in there for the run to Taunton having travelled down from Ormskirk via Preston and Birmingham, in stark contrast to the sardine-like conditions in the rest of the set!

 

[tbtc]

The 180s were of course originally ordered by Great Western Trains (prior to the FirstGroup takeover of the original management 'buyout') to run South Wales services with 10-cars running to Cardiff and dividing with 5 continuing to Swansea (and occasionally beyond). There was also I believe a plan at one point for a follow-on order for North Western Trains/First NorthWestern for services from North Wales/Blackpool/others to London.

The rather severe 'teething problems' with the initial 180s (and of course pretty much all other early '3rd generation' Alstom units!) put paid to all that (and led to an extra summer of 47/8s and Mk2s running to Devon and Cornwall!) and the 180s eventually found limited use on Thames Valley and Exeter semi-fasts before being sent off-lease and picked up by the open access operators (and Northern of course!)

To be pedantic, we should mention NXEC in the history of the 180s as they leased five of them for a year or two (but IIRC never ran any in service - having stockpiled them for potential Lincoln/ Harrogate services and leased three to Northern in the meantime)

 

[starrymarkb]

I believe the position of the buffet and sharing a disabled loo with standard lead to the position of First

 

[jopsuk]

What letters to First Hull Trains use? Is it simply A-E with 1st class in B (or D)?

 

[Max]

What letters to First Hull Trains use? Is it simply A-E with 1st class in B (or D)?

Indeed it is, see here. For a while they used a jumbled coach letting system like GC as reservations needed to be compatible with both 180s and 222s. However, this was amended during the refurbishment programme.

 

[northwichcat]

To be pedantic, we should mention NXEC in the history of the 180s as they leased five of them for a year or two (but IIRC never ran any in service - having stockpiled them for potential Lincoln/ Harrogate services and leased three to Northern in the meantime)

And East Coast as well as Northern never directly leased the 180s from taking them on in 2008 until they gave them up in 2011, they were subleased from NXEC and then EC.

East Coast being a government owned company probably made it easier for the class 180 sublease to be extended which allowed FGW to both keep the 142s until they got cascaded 150s and for FGW to get the first set of 150s released (the LO 150s) which were originally intended for Northern.

 

[D365]

The 180s were of course originally ordered by Great Western Trains (prior to the FirstGroup takeover of the original management 'buyout') to run South Wales services with 10-cars running to Cardiff and dividing with 5 continuing to Swansea (and occasionally beyond). There was also I believe a plan at one point for a follow-on order for North Western Trains/First NorthWestern for services from North Wales/Blackpool/others to London.

Weren't the 14 (and only) 180s ordered by FNW originally? Can't remember the details of what services but somehow they ended up being diverted to FGW. I'm sure more would have been built, like with the rest of Alstom's products, if it wasn't for the 'teething troubles'...

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

When I was at GC on the HST rakes coach D also happened to be the one with the Disabled toilet, so for reservation purposes etc the 180 vehicle with the Disabled toilet was also labelled as D...

Anyone noticed the announcement that GC want to go to a full 180 fleet and dispense with the HSTs...

 

[D365]

Anyone noticed the announcement that GC want to go to a full 180 fleet and dispense with the HSTs...

They missed that opportunity when EC was offering to do a swap... At least FGW or FHT should be willing to give them over... 2016 at the earliest.

 

[Lampshade]

Weren't the 14 (and only) 180s ordered by FNW originally? Can't remember the details of what services but somehow they ended up being diverted to FGW. I'm sure more would have been built, like with the rest of Alstom's products, if it wasn't for the 'teething troubles'...

Yep, for Blackpool/Rochdale (and possibly Manchester Airport) - London services. Also for a time it looked like FNW would take over Holyhead - London, which is why such a high number were ordered for so few services.

 

[northwichcat]

Also for a time it looked like FNW would take over Holyhead - London, which is why such a high number were ordered for so few services.

IIRC at one point FNW crews worked Virgin services between Crewe and Holyhead and whenever there was a FNW strike day Virgin ran no Holyhead services. That would be in pre-Pendolino days when FNW also operated slam door loco-hauled stock.

 

[swt_passenger]

Anyone noticed the announcement that GC want to go to a full 180 fleet and dispense with the HSTs...

Saw the Railnews article:

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2013/...m-fleet-of-trains-and-investment-in-stations/

 

[Eagle]

More information in their application to Network Rail. It seems they're willing to pay for rebuilding the disused platform at Hartlepool.

 

[swt_passenger]

More information in their application to Network Rail. It seems they're willing to pay for rebuilding the disused platform at Hartlepool.

Not stated there, but a full 180 fleet presumably also allows for the eventual possibility of joining trains for the mainline run to/from Kings Cross, which overcomes the criticism that they would be using short trains in LDHS paths.

 

[Eagle]

I'm guessing that's what the intention is there.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not stated there, but a full 180 fleet presumably also allows for the eventual possibility of joining trains for the mainline run to/from Kings Cross, which overcomes the criticism that they would be using short trains in LDHS paths.

Surely though that would either slow down the Sunderland services (they'd have to call additionally at Doncaster to split/join with Bradfords) or they'd stop calling at York and just serve Donny instead- and I can't imagine that would make any sense commercially.

 

[northwichcat]

and I can't imagine that would make any sense commercially.

There must be a commercial benefit in the TOC running two services joined up south of Doncaster as it would require less drivers so be cheaper to operate.

 

[bb21]

allows for the eventual possibility of joining trains

I nearly choked on my sandwich when I saw this.

 

[MCR247]

180s...coupling in service...right...

 

[Eagle]

Perhaps they could be modified to couple properly with a gangway connection, like another Alstom Coradia-derived design is currently being done :P

 

[phil35]

So what is so outrageous about the 180s coupling up?

 

[jopsuk]

They've long had a reputation for being a bit rubbish at it.

 

[tbtc]

Saw the Railnews article:

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2013/...m-fleet-of-trains-and-investment-in-stations/

I suppose the 180s will be the first thing that FGW jettisons once they get some IEP.

Does make me wonder what long term guarantees there are for Open Access on the ECML - it'd look very different without OA (but then we'd have bi-mode IEP to serve Sunderland etc).