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7-day UK ALR Bash (Image Heavy)

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A couple of months ago, Gizmogle and I decided that we'd use the time I'd booked off from work from 15-21 August to go for a 7-day UK bash.
Having a disabled railcard allowed me to get a significant discount on an All Line Rover, and she could of course travel for free on her priv. Having houses in the south and north also allowed us to avoid paying for accommodation or doing large numbers of overnighters at stations or on trains.

Photos:
Mine: http://www.littleredtrain.co.uk/gallery
Gizmogle’s: http://gizmogle.fotopic.net

Before the trip
Getting the All Line Rover was not as easy as I expected, the ticket clerk at Ash Vale had no idea what one was and did not believe she could issue it. After I persuaded her that she could, she eventually phoned someone and I was issued with the correct ticket.



Day 1 – Isle of Wight and Southern
Our aim was to get all of the IOW and some areas of the south coast done.
The day went pretty much to plan, we first headed to the IOW (having to leg it for the ferry at Portsmouth because the train from Guildford was running late). We bashed the line to Shanklin and intended to go back to Smallbrook Jn for the steam railway, but our train sailed straight through. We got off at Ryde St Johns Road and, after a quick look around, caught the next train back to Smallbrook, which did fortunately stop.
We took a trip on the steam railway behind an Austerity 0-6-0ST before catching Island Line back up to Ryde. Back on the mainline, we travelled from Portsmouth to Barnham and did the Bognor and Littlehampton branches, before heading up to London via Horsham, Epsom and Guildford.
After picking up an excessive amount of doughnuts in London, we took the 2200 HST from KX up to York, via the Askern freight line and then TPX to Manchester Picc, where we amused ourselves listening to the loud music played throughout the station until our 0520 departure.



Day 2 - North Wales
The aim was to catch the steam service on the Cambrian up to Porthmadog, go to Pwllheli and back, travel on the Welsh Highland Railway (Porthmadog) and then use the Ffestiniog Railway, Conwy Valley Line and North Wales Coast to take us back to Manchester and then on to Buxton.
To get to Machynlleth in time for the steam train required a very early 0520 departure from Manchester, followed by a 6min connection at Stafford and a 7min connection at Wolverhampton. Fortunately, despite the late departure of our Voyager from Stafford, we manage to make both connections with relative ease. We were also spared having to wait around in the draughty waiting room at Machynlleth, as the steam service pulled into the station well before it was due to depart, and we could settle ourselves into some nice comfy seats.
The run up the Cambrian was very pleasant, much more so than by 158, and we arrived in Porthmadog pretty much on time. After a quick expedition to pick up some food and to purchase Gizmogle’s ticket for the Ffestiniog we caught a 158 to Pwllheli. We had time to get an ice cream before taking the same train back to Porthmadog, where we headed to the WHR(P),
Surprisingly, the WHR(P) train departed late and on our way back, we were a little concerned that we might miss our connection to the Ffestiniog. As it turned out, the Ffestiniog train was also delayed by 15mins so there was no problem. Fortunately, the connection to the Conwy Valley line was a generous 30mins so there was no risk of missing that. We got a 150 up the valley, then a 175 back to Manchester and 150 to Buxton, where we spent the night at Gizmogle’s.



Day 3 – Settle & Carlisle
The original plan for this day was to bash the Settle and Carlisle, go across to Newcastle, travel to Sunderland by Metro and bash the Saltburn line before heading back to Buxton again.
Unfortunately the train from Buxton departed around 15mins late, meaning we missed our connection to Leeds at Manchester Picc. We caught the next TPX service to Leeds, but this just missed the connection onwards to Carlisle, and the next one wasn’t for two hours.
Since we had time to kill, we switched to a backup plan that’d been devised on the train to Leeds, which consisted of a 155 to Bradford Interchange followed by a walk across Bradford and a 333 from Forster Square back to Leeds. The walk across Bradford wasn’t as easy as it could’ve been, it appeared that someone had been turning the direction signs around and had we followed them, we would have ended up walking in circles forever.
Our service up the S&C was on a 158 and after arriving at Carlisle, we had a quick look around the town before taking a 156 over to Newcastle, where we met up with Craig. Unfortunately, our earlier missed connection meant we no longer had time to do the metro or Saltburn, so took a GNER service down to York, then TPX across to Manchester, the latter was made rather eventful by a woman who announced loudly that she was going to throw up, and then headed straight for us. Thankfully she made it to the toilet. Worryingly she was also on our train to Buxton, which is where we again spent the night.



Day 4 – Heart of Wales
The plan for this day was a very early departure from Buxton, with a trip down the Heart of Wales line from Shrewsbury, followed by the Milford Haven and Bridgend-Maesteg branches. Unfortuantely, we both slept through the 0530 alarm and were woken by Gizmogle’s mother at around 0600. The train was at 0634, but it was a little too early in the morning to be running across town to catch it.
One re-plan later and we got up at around 10 for a much more civilised 1134 train from Buxton. We changed at Stockport for a 175 to Shrewsbury, then a pair of 153s down the Heart of Wales to Swansea. Due to our late running we had to abandon the Milford Haven and Maesteg branches, so caught an HST back to Reading. Our coach was full of drunken rugby fans who were shouting, singing and heckling other passengers and in true FGW style, the conductor was nowhere to be found. Eventually we moved into the next coach which was much more peaceful.
At Reading, we caught the next train to North Camp and spent the night at my place in Ash Vale.



Day 5 – Exeter & Devon Branches
This day was our third day of bad luck. The plan was to head down to Exeter and do the Sundays-only branch to Okehampton, the Dartmoor railway, and the branches to Barnstaple, Exmouth and Paignton.
We travelled on FGW from North Camp to Reading, then Reading to Exeter by HST. This departed Reading about 10mins late and continued to lose time, with a stopper being put out in front of it at Bristol. Our connection to the Okehampton train at Exeter was only 7mins (the Sunday timetable meant nothing more generous was available) and unsurprisingly we missed that. A backup plan to get the Exmouth branch done before the next Okehampton was also screwed up as the HST eventually arrived into Exeter nearly 30mins late!
As we couldn’t do anything else before the Okehampton train, we headed into town (which is a long walk from St Davids) in search of food. After stocking up at a co-op, we ended up at Exeter Central and caught a 159 back to St Davids.
Upon arrival, we found 34067 Tangmere sitting in platform 6, having failed, and got to watch a 66 being put on the front.
After boarding the train to Okehampton, we were surprised to find that neither my ALR nor Gizmogle’s priv were valid on the train (despite it being operated by FGW).
We ended up paying £6 for a rover ticket and then had to pay £5 each for a trip on the steam railway (which seemed a bit of a rip-off given its short length). Unfortunately, I managed to leave my bag on the train from Exeter (partly because there was a brat screaming his head off next to us, and I wanted to get off that train as quickly as possible) so I spent most of the steam trip phoning FGW and the Dartmoor railway trying to find out if anyone had located it. Rather unhelpfully, FGW wouldn’t give me the number for Exeter St Davids (who could’ve grabbed the bag off the train) and insist I call their lost property depot (who wouldn’t actually get the bag until a couple of days after it was found). Fortunately, after enquiring on the train back to Exeter, it turned out that the guard had found it and handed it in to the Station Manager at Exeter, from whom it was retrieved upon arrival.
We then went to cover the Barnstaple, Exmouth and Paignton branches, which despite our late running, were still doable, albeit with the latter two in the dark. It turned out that the 1800 to Barnstaple actually ran a single diagram that covered all three in turn, finally arriving back into Exeter at 2350. This was formed of a class 150 and I have to say that spending 6 hours on one wasn’t quite as bad as I had expected.
After arriving in Exeter, we set up camp in the customer lounge to wait for the Sleeper. We had to share the lounge with a couple of homeless druggies, who bragged about robbing off-licences and evading the cops, so it wasn’t exactly the most pleasant of overnighters.



Day 6 – Cornwall
When the sleeper arrived we boarded our coach to find that our reserved table seats had been taken by a fat woman who was loudly coughing and spluttering and the feet of the man sitting opposite. Having no desire to wake them, we set out to find the guard, who it turned out, had wandered off into the station somewhere. We did however run into Jordy, who was sitting in first class. When the guard finally returned, we explained the problem and he agreed to let us sit in first class instead.
We managed to catch some sleep and arrived into Penzance slightly early. After a quick look round and getting Gizmogle’s mum to screen-cap us on the Penzance webcam, we boarded the train to St Ives.
After doing the St Ives branch, we took a voyager from St Erth to Truro in order to do the Falmouth Branch. While we waiting in Truro, 158815 arrived, which made Gizmogle very excited.
We had a 150 down to Falmouth and, as we had some time there, wandered from Falmouth Docks to Falmouth Town, via a shop to pick up some food.
Arriving back at Truro, we had 158815 on our service to Liskeard (to pick up the Looe branch). Unfortunately, we only made it as far as Par before the train failed with a ‘serious electrical fault’ and we all got chucked off to await the following train.
It did give us a chance to watch a 67 running round its train and a FGW HST heading for Newquay. The following train was a 150, which was running late and we’d have missed our connection at Liskeard, had the connection not been held.
We met up with Jim at Liskeard to head down to Looe and back and he accompanied us for the rest of the day as far as Exeter.
After arriving back at Liskeard, we caught a FGW HD HST to Plymouth and then a 150 down the Gunnislake branch. After that was another Voyager to Exeter and then a 159 up the SWT line to Basingstoke, and 450s to Woking and then Ash Vale.



Day 7 – East Anglia
The aim of the East Anglia trip was to cover the line from London to Norwich, the branch to Sheringham, North Norfolk Railway, both lines to Great Yarmouth and the line back to Liverpool St via Cambridge.
Although our departure from Liverpool St was on time, we only got about 50 yards before the train made a sudden brake application and stopped for 10mins. We were told it was an ‘operational incident’ but not exactly what had happened.
We arrived about 15mins late into Norwich and had to run for our connection, which we fortunately just made.
We got to Sheringham on time and found it to be full of large numbers of old people and small children. We were hauled by 9F 92203 on the North Norfolk Railway before heading back to Norwich, where we had a break long enough to go into the city and pick up some food.
We then got a 170 to Great Yarmouth via Acle. Our return train wasn’t for 1h40, so we headed off into the town and had a look around the beach and pier. When we got back to the station, we found it locked up, somewhat daft at 1730ish, especially as the departure screens were inside.
Our return train to Norwich went via Berney Arms and we then caught a train off to Cambridge. The guard on the Cambridge train was incredibly strict and managed to delay the train by 15mins by failing to dispatch the train while arguing with passengers over tickets and bike spaces.
At Cambridge, we picked up some food and then caught our train back to Liverpool St. Our original plan had us going back to Ash Vale via Ascot, but given that we were
both tired, we decided to get a direct train back via Woking instead.



Summary
The whole trip was generally enjoyable, and we managed to cover a great many lines which we wouldn’t normally have been able to, while keeping the costs minimal. There are a few main points to take away from it though.

• Drunken rugby fans and screaming children are really really annoying and there seem to be an awful lot of them travelling on the rail network.
• The less frequent your connecting service is, the more chance that you’ll miss the connection!
• Don’t trust First Great Western if planning connections, they simply won’t work, however much time you leave.
• Having a mobile phone with access to the National Rail journey planner is incredibly useful for when things go tits-up.
• No matter how appealing a dozen Krispy Kreme doughnuts may seem when you buy them, getting through them all is a challenge and it’s annoying having to carry them around on trains with you.

penzanceld5.png
 
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5872

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Nice shots ,I want to go along the GWML one day:(:) , what locos did you get haulage behind:lol:????.




Fred.
 

Gizmogle

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Got haulage behind the 57 on the sleeper, plenty of HSTs and quite a few kettles.
I don't know anything about kettles, but LittleRedTrain will be able to tell you what they were exactly.
Also plenty of units. Did well with the sprinters (not sure if that's something to be proud of or not :p). Managed to bash 150s, 153s, 155s, 156s, 158s and 159s.
 

me123

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Looks like you had a good trip, and what a bargain! Glad you enjoyed yourself.
 

Max

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Wow, what a trip! I bet that got you a lot of coverage, and it looks like you had good fun too! :)
 

Gizmogle

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Wow, what a trip! I bet that got you a lot of coverage, and it looks like you had good fun too! :)

Loads of coverage!

COVERAGE BEFORE ALR

COVERAGE AFTER ALR

:D :D :D

Missed out a few things though due to delays and Daniel's alarm not being loud enough :lol:
Daniel has written a lovely letter of complain to FGW which will be on its way soon though :) (They really did mess up alot of our plans)

why dose everyone want coverage?:-?.
Coverage is great! It's something to do and something to achieve. Not many people can say that they have travelled the entire country.
I find it kinda addictive too :p I love coverage!
 

yorkie

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After boarding the train to Okehampton, we were surprised to find that neither my ALR nor Gizmogle’s priv were valid on the train (despite it being operated by FGW).
ALRs certainly are valid on all FGW trains! Out of interest, did a FGW guard say this or was it someone from the preserved railway? Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, the preserved railway have no right to interfear with ATOC ticketing arrangements. I did allow the eccentric person to check my ticket when I travelled on that line, but if he claimed my ticket was invalid I'd demand to speak to the proper conductor.

I have witnessed ALRs be accepted on that line, as they should be. I'd have refused to pay.

Even Open Access TOCs can't get out of the ALR! Apparently HT don't "officially" accept regional rovers, however they know that's impossible to enforce (see the NCoC and you'll understand why) so they do accept them anyway, however they are forced to accept ALRs. Not that this is relevant here, but the point is no TOC can get out of the ALR on National rail metals.

Glad to hear everything other than FarceLateWestern was good though!
 

Gizmogle

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Well, apparently half of the line was normal service, but then half was operated by the Dartmoor Railway people. So when we got to Crediton (IIRC), the guy told us that our tickets weren't valid on this part of the line. But was "nice" enough to give us both a cheaper ticket (can't remember what it was) for it.

I think it ended up about £6 between us for the train there and then about £5 for the actual railway! Complete ripoff.

Do you think the guy was wrong by making us buy new tickets?
Should they accept priv and ALRs being part of National Rail?
Is it worth complaining about?

We're already waiting for a response from FGW after Daniel sent a nice big complaint letter :D
 

W14Fishbourne

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ALRs certainly are valid on all FGW trains! Out of interest, did a FGW guard say this or was it someone from the preserved railway? Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, the preserved railway have no right to interfear with ATOC ticketing arrangements. I did allow the eccentric person to check my ticket when I travelled on that line, but if he claimed my ticket was invalid I'd demand to speak to the proper conductor.

I have witnessed ALRs be accepted on that line, as they should be. I'd have refused to pay.

Even Open Access TOCs can't get out of the ALR! Apparently HT don't "officially" accept regional rovers, however they know that's impossible to enforce (see the NCoC and you'll understand why) so they do accept them anyway, however they are forced to accept ALRs. Not that this is relevant here, but the point is no TOC can get out of the ALR on National rail metals.

Glad to hear everything other than FarceLateWestern was good though!

Please don't talk so much twaddle.

The Okehampton service is a charter service run by and for Devon County Council. FGW (as the successor to Wessex) only provides the stock and crew for it, just as EWS provides stock and crew for charter trains. ALRs and priv tickets are no more valid on the Okehampton trains than they would be on a railtour or a preserved line. (And, yes, I know that ALRs are accepted on one or two preserved lines but only a few.) Priv tickets are expressly ruled out on the Okehampton service - priv holders should always read the Staff Travel Restrictions to avoid nasty surprises.

Your Okehampton line ticket (the Dartmoor Sunday Rover) is issued by and the fare paid to Devon County Council. (It is also valid on DCC-sponsored bus routes over Dartmoor and surrounding areas, and the Tamar valley line - see http://www.devon.gov.uk/index/transport/public_transport/buses/services-4/sunday-rover.htm. If you've cheated them of their rightful fare in the way that you admit you have through your ignorant know-it-all attitude then you should send a cheque to DCC. The service depends on its income if it's to keep on running, so cheats like you are risking its future.

And Open Access operators do not have to accept interavailable tickets - only franchised TOCs have that obligation - though most do sign up for them because then they get a chunk of all the revenue taken on the route concerned.
 

Ascot

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Please don't talk so much twaddle.

The Okehampton service is a charter service run by and for Devon County Council. FGW (as the successor to Wessex) only provides the stock and crew for it, just as EWS provides stock and crew for charter trains. ALRs and priv tickets are no more valid on the Okehampton trains than they would be on a railtour or a preserved line. (And, yes, I know that ALRs are accepted on one or two preserved lines but only a few.) Priv tickets are expressly ruled out on the Okehampton service - priv holders should always read the Staff Travel Restrictions to avoid nasty surprises.

Your Okehampton line ticket (the Dartmoor Sunday Rover) is issued by and the fare paid to Devon County Council. (It is also valid on DCC-sponsored bus routes over Dartmoor and surrounding areas, and the Tamar valley line - see http://www.devon.gov.uk/index/transport/public_transport/buses/services-4/sunday-rover.htm. If you've cheated them of their rightful fare in the way that you admit you have through your ignorant know-it-all attitude then you should send a cheque to DCC. The service depends on its income if it's to keep on running, so cheats like you are risking its future.

And Open Access operators do not have to accept interavailable tickets - only franchised TOCs have that obligation - though most do sign up for them because then they get a chunk of all the revenue taken on the route concerned.

Only Ffestiniog, however sometimes you can get a "unofficial" child price if you show one depending on the TTI on most railways.
 

yorkie

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Please don't talk so much twaddle.
likewise ;)
The Okehampton service is a charter service run by and for Devon County Council. FGW (as the successor to Wessex) only provides the stock and crew for it, just as EWS provides stock and crew for charter trains...
No, it is run by FGW, according to the FGW website and all journey planner information that I can find. This is not the same as EWS operating a charter train for another company as a one-off non-passenger timetabled service. Looking at the FGW TT, it has the note 'C' above it, which just states that it runs until 9 Sept. It is clearly a FGW service.

Your Okehampton line ticket (the Dartmoor Sunday Rover) is issued by and the fare paid to Devon County Council. (It is also valid on DCC-sponsored bus routes over Dartmoor and surrounding areas, and the Tamar valley line - see http://www.devon.gov.uk/index/transport/public_transport/buses/services-4/sunday-rover.htm.
Yes, that's the rover I've used.

If you've cheated them of their rightful fare in the way that you admit you have through your ignorant know-it-all attitude then you should send a cheque to DCC. The service depends on its income if it's to keep on running, so cheats like you are risking its future.
I'm not a cheat - please retract that.

If I was on an ALR, then I'd refuse to pay if someone was claiming my ticket was invalid. If they are asking nicely for a donation then that's a different matter...
And Open Access operators do not have to accept interavailable tickets - only franchised TOCs have that obligation - though most do sign up for them because then they get a chunk of all the revenue taken on the route concerned.
Wrong.
NCoC said:
10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit

travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

So, for example, HT can refuse to accept GNER-only tickets, and Gatwick Express can refuse to accept "Not GatEx" tickets, etc... but if no such prohibition is shown on the ticket then they have to be accepted.


Legally, they'd be totally in the wrong. I'm not saying they don't deserve a donation from people on ALRs, but they can't demand it.



If they did officially make it a charter service and stated very clearly that only special charter tickets are vaild on that service, THEN they can refuse to accept interavailable tickets.



The very fact that they accept normal tickets to Crediton proves that they are certainly NOT the same as a one-off charter!!
 

Ascot

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Anyone that works on the Dartmoor and a TTI find out for us in ya lil book?

Dartmoor don't get endorsed from FGW for the fares to Okehampton and that unlike SVR on the Through to Bridgnorth tickets, we don't get money for every ALR so there not valid, most do a reduction tho on the side ;)

EDIT: From Coleford Junction it's not Network Rail land so it's not part of their line which defeats the object of ALL LINE so it isn't advertised on Network Rail Land... infact here's the boundary...

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4564/gw608001nr6.jpg
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/7351/creditonqr7.jpg

I get banned for posting the above and put on moderation 3 months after i post it yet it still remains

So it's not on Network Rail area. If it an ALL TOC rover then that would be different as that would have Heathrow which is again not part of the Infrastructure (but in the SA).

2nd EDIT:
Yorkie again, you don't alf talk some shizzle, it's the same with the West Mids, they are NOT valid on Virgin as if you buy one it says AS ADVERTISED not ANY PERM, take a look at an ALR, http://www.littleredtrain.co.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=13&pos=0, Thanks ali b. for the piccie it says AS ADVERTISED.
 

W14Fishbourne

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likewise ;)

No, it is run by FGW, according to the FGW website and all journey planner information that I can find. This is not the same as EWS operating a charter train for another company as a one-off non-passenger timetabled service. Looking at the FGW TT, it has the note 'C' above it, which just states that it runs until 9 Sept. It is clearly a FGW service.

FGW includes it in its timetable for convenience, primarily because it covers part of the Barnstaple line and because it has agreed to do so with DCC. Normal fares (including ALRs) are valid between Exeter and Crediton; they don't have to be as the trains are paid for by DCC but it saves a lot of hassle and confusion to do so.

Normal fares (including ALRs) do not apply between Crediton and Okehampton which, as Ascot has pointed out, is not owned by Network Rail and is not part of the national network. Neither the National Rail Conditions of Carriage or the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement (what you refer to as ATOC ticketing arrangements) apply between Crediton and Okehampton, any more than they do on the Bluebell line or the Snowdon Mountain Railway.

So, ALRs are not valid beyond Crediton, and the conductor on the train (whom you were going to insist on speaking to) has no revenue collection responsibility beyond Crediton. He is simply there to act as Train Guard.


I'm not a cheat - please retract that.

If I was on an ALR, then I'd refuse to pay if someone was claiming my ticket was invalid. If they are asking nicely for a donation then that's a different matter...

I'm happy to retract it on the basis that you haven't tried to use an ALR to Okehampton. Your original post seemed to imply that you had - you didn't make it clear what type of ticket you had. If you did insist on using an ALR (and you've made it plain that you'd be quite happy to) then you would be cheating them out of their rightful revenue, just the same as if you insisted on using an ALR on the Lavender Line.

They might allow you to do so, on the basis that giving way to you is better than having an almighty on-train row, but that's only the same as taking a pragmatic approach with a drunken scrote who gets on a train and has no intention of paying.

So, for example, HT can refuse to accept GNER-only tickets, and Gatwick Express can refuse to accept "Not GatEx" tickets, etc... but if no such prohibition is shown on the ticket then they have to be accepted.

Wrong. Hull Trains could have decided to accept only their own tickets. As a non-franchised operator they do not have to become a signatory the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement. However, they have chosen to do so. Hull Trains is in the same situation as West Coast Railway Co - they are both Open Access, non-franchised operators and their ticketing arrangements are their own business. Would you expect to buy a Cheap Day Return from Fort William to Mallaig and use it on one of the steam specials over that line?


Legally, they'd be totally in the wrong. I'm not saying they don't deserve a donation from people on ALRs, but they can't demand it.



If they did officially make it a charter service and stated very clearly that only special charter tickets are vaild on that service, THEN they can refuse to accept interavailable tickets.

I'm afraid that you're the one who's wrong. What is your basis for asserting this so positively? My basis is that I am the Retail Manager for a major TOC and I represent my TOC/owning group on the ATOC bodies responsible for such matters. Take it from me, I do know what I'm talking about.
 

yorkie

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FGW includes it in its timetable for convenience, primarily because it covers part of the Barnstaple line and because it has agreed to do so with DCC. Normal fares (including ALRs) are valid between Exeter and Crediton; they don't have to be as the trains are paid for by DCC but it saves a lot of hassle and confusion to do so.
Yes, it does save a lot of hassle, because if they didn't then it would not be enforceable without disclaimers in the timetable (e.g. footnotes saying certain tickets not valid), disclaimers on the departure screens, etc etc.

I'm not saying they couldn't do it - but they'd sure as hell have to make it clear!
Normal fares (including ALRs) do not apply between Crediton and Okehampton which, as Ascot has pointed out, is not owned by Network Rail and is not part of the national network. Neither the National Rail Conditions of Carriage or the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement (what you refer to as ATOC ticketing arrangements) apply between Crediton and Okehampton, any more than they do on the Bluebell line or the Snowdon Mountain Railway.

So, ALRs are not valid beyond Crediton, and the conductor on the train (whom you were going to insist on speaking to) has no revenue collection responsibility beyond Crediton. He is simply there to act as Train Guard.
Hmm, this is a different point to that made earlier. But, from a passengers point of view, it's a FGW train and there's nothing saying it goes beyond the juristiction of NR and I wasn't to know that, so what hope has the average punter got?! If you have a ticket that is advertised as being valid on all FGW trains, and a FGW train pulls in.....



I'm happy to retract it on the basis that you haven't tried to use an ALR to Okehampton. Your original post seemed to imply that you had - you didn't make it clear what type of ticket you had. If you did insist on using an ALR (and you've made it plain that you'd be quite happy to) then you would be cheating them out of their rightful revenue, just the same as if you insisted on using an ALR on the Lavender Line.
No, the OPs had attempted to use it, and I don't see how they were 'wrong' to try it - we have had to view the sectional appendix of line to realise it isn't owned by NR - how are they to know? If it was me, and the guard politely explained it wasn't NR, and asked for a donation to help them run the service then I'd have done so. On the other hand, if the guard was rude and said my ticket was not valid and demanded I pay, then I'd be very tempted to refuse on the basis that I know that legally I'd win (if the contract is dubious the customer wins by default).
They might allow you to do so, on the basis that giving way to you is better than having an almighty on-train row, but that's only the same as taking a pragmatic approach with a drunken scrote who gets on a train and has no intention of paying.
Well, I think I've answered that above. Depends on their attitude and how they word it for me. But legally, I think the customer would win.


Wrong. Hull Trains could have decided to accept only their own tickets.
As a non-franchised operator they do not have to become a signatory the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement. However, they have chosen to do so. Hull Trains is in the same situation as West Coast Railway Co - they are both Open Access, non-franchised operators and their ticketing arrangements are their own business. Would you expect to buy a Cheap Day Return from Fort William to Mallaig and use it on one of the steam specials over that line?
Regarding HT - well, if they were to act like a charter service then they'd have to make it very clear for it to be enforceable, that would include announcements saying "only charter tickets are valid", on screens etc. Of course they could NEVER do this as the company would collapse instantly if they did!!!

As for the steam service, it's a bit more obvious that it's not a regular train, however my own view is that they should make it clearer that NR tickets are not valid. Yes, it's obvious, but I do think sometimes they are on dodgy ground not making it clear enough - especially the way they appear in the NRT.
I'm afraid that you're the one who's wrong. What is your basis for asserting this so positively? My basis is that I am the Retail Manager for a major TOC and I represent my TOC/owning group on the ATOC bodies responsible for such matters. Take it from me, I do know what I'm talking about.
You can't just advertise a train on departure screens as if it's a normal service and then, when people are already on, ching them. I've seen departure screens for railtours and they say something like "charter train for special ticket holders only". Without this and/or announcements, if a customer boards, and you try to charge them, it's just not enforceable, especially in this day and age of a turn-up-and-go railway on many lines where TOCs are keen to tell us you no longer need to refer to a timetable. If someone refused to pay and it went to court, there's no way a court would blame a passenger if they genuinely thought it was a normal service train and the screens also incidated that!
 

W14Fishbourne

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Is the same supposed to apply to a passenger who gets on a peak hour train with a cheap day return? At my local station none of the peak hour trains come with a warning "Off-peak Tickets not valid". I have also seen trains with window labels stating "You must ensure that your ticket is valid for this train".

You could extend your argument to suggest that all First Group return bus tickets should be valid on First Group trains and vice-versa, because how is the customer to know that there's a difference. The trains and the buses are both in First Group colours.

The law has so far accepted that it is for the passenger to ensure that their ticket is valid before boarding a train. We don't yet have a US-style legal system where cups of coffee have to be marked "Contents may be hot".
 

yorkie

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Is the same supposed to apply to a passenger who gets on a peak hour train with a cheap day return? At my local station none of the peak hour trains come with a warning "Off-peak Tickets not valid". I have also seen trains with window labels stating "You must ensure that your ticket is valid for this train".
it should be made absolutely clear to passengers exactly what the validity rules are for the tickets they buy. Tickets bought at weekends (which is really what we are talking about here) should always be valid at any time. But, the fact is, the passenger is at the station at a time when their ticket is valid, and a train turns up, then unless there is some warning that the train is a charter and normal tickets can't be used, they should be able to travel on whatever train turns up. After all, one of the fundamental rules of ticketing is that it's not the trains that govern the validity, it's the ticket itself (e.g. if you use a York-Sheffield Saver on the 0759 MML HST from Donny-Sheffield, then you are totally valid despite MML having a "no savers before 0900" rule).
You could extend your argument to suggest that all First Group return bus tickets should be valid on First Group trains and vice-versa, because how is the customer to know that there's a difference. The trains and the buses are both in First Group colours.
That's just daft.
The law has so far accepted that it is for the passenger to ensure that their ticket is valid before boarding a train. We don't yet have a US-style legal system where cups of coffee have to be marked "Contents may be hot".
But to what extend has the law 'accepted' this? If your ticket is valid on "all trains after 10:00" and the screens show a train and nothing says it's a charter, you get on and suddenly you're told it is, how is that your fault? It is for precisely this reason that the "this is a charter train, normal tickets are not valid" type announcements are made via the PA and screens!

It really annoys me that some people (a very small minority, thankfully) in the rail industry want to treat their customers so badly and trap them into situations where money is extracted from them.
 

devon_metro

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The service past Creidton is run by Devon County Council. Stop bending the bloody rules. You have to buy a Dartnoor Rover and that is that. The fact that you cannot buy a national rail ticket to Okehampton would suggest that somehow you are going to have to pay on the train :roll:
 
T

Tom

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The way I see it is that as its advertised as a FGW service it should really obey ATOC ticketing rules unless otherwise advertised - I can't easily see where it is clearly advertised though.
 

yorkie

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The service past Creidton is run by Devon County Council.
Where is this stated? How am I meant to know? If I didn't know that, what hope is there that Joe Public would know?
Stop bending the bloody rules.
Who is "bending" which rules exactly? They did nothing wrong and I can see why they expected their rovers to be valid.
You have to buy a Dartnoor Rover and that is that.
OK, but if the only tickets accepted on the train are "Dartmoor Rovers", then why is this not made clear? The way it's listed as a normal FGW train, how would one know that? The railways should not have secretive rules designed to sting passengers, and that's that.

The fact that you cannot buy a national rail ticket to Okehampton would suggest that somehow you are going to have to pay on the train
Why would someone with an ALR know that...?
The attitude seems to be "the customer is always wrong", it's a Basil Fawlty-style attitude, and something the rail industry really should do without.
 

me123

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I'm surprised at the restrictions with an ALR. I can understand it not being valid on certain lines run by councils, but the "As Advertised" stuff's really bad.
 

Ascot

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ALR's are not valid on private railways apart from Ffestiniog and Warwick Parkway Station etc..

Okehampton is not part of the National Railway system so it's not valid as it's own by someone who does not get a single penny from them. My post above says why.
 

Gizmogle

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It could be made clearer then by FGW.

Definately. I mean, on the destination board it was the FGW service to Okehampton.
Suggesting that it's just a normal National Rail train.

I don't have a problem with them charging money for it (even though it is a rip off.) but they just need to let people know.

The Dartmoor Railway actually put it on their timetable at Okehampton, calling it the diesel service. Which I think is a little sneaky.
 

Ascot

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What needs to be made clear?

If you can't buy a ticket to Okehampton why would there be a problem?

People who even know about ALRs, never mind who buy them, have an idea of the system and are wise enough to check up before entering a preserved railway and not think there no-it alls like Yorkie who now admits his wrong in his swan song.
 

Gizmogle

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What needs to be made clear?

If you can't buy a ticket to Okehampton why would there be a problem?

People who even know about ALRs, never mind who buy them, have an idea of the system and are wise enough to check up before entering a preserved railway and not think there no-it alls like Yorkie who now admits his wrong in his swan song.

Yes, but they don't tell you that the service to Okehampton changes operator half way and that you have to pay!
Obviously we have to pay for the Dartmoor Railway itself, but to get there?
 

Ascot

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Yes, but they don't tell you that the service to Okehampton changes operator half way and that you have to pay!
Obviously we have to pay for the Dartmoor Railway itself, but to get there?

Well that's where common sence and british rail don't match
 
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