Lost Railcard: Forced to buy replacement return ticket

[ModernRailways]

The situation now is that we have received at letter from FGW. After some preamble it says:

"I have reviewed your case and I am, on this occasion, prepared to offer a settlement of this matter upon payment £285.30 which equates to the outstanding fare owed of £220.30 , plus a contribution of £65 towards the costs incurred to date."

It goes on to say that we must pay within days or we may be served with a Summons to appear in court.

You will have to pay it. Have you got a friend or someone who can lend you the money or your son will have to face the consequences.

As I said, what type of ticket did he hold? Was it two Advance purchases?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Looking at BRFares.com, I'd hazard a guess that the OP's son held a Y-P discounted OS4 (at £26.80) for one direction and a Y-P discounted OS3 (at £22.30) for the other, which is where the £49.10 comes from.

Unfortunately, the "fatal" mistake in all this (for want of a better description) was that, knowing he didn't have his Y-P card, the OP's son still boarded the train at Paddington with his now invalid tickets.

 

[island]

I am slightly dissatisfied with this as the OP's son should have been issued with a UPFN/zero ticket for the anytime single fare and had the chance to acquire a new Railcard and use his original ticket home. On the other hand, they have allowed for the price of the tickets held, which they don't have to do, as a Railcard-discounted ticket is void without the Railcard. And the passenger had the option to regularise his situation at Paddington by buying a new Railcard, but chose not to.

On balance I think the most sensible action is to pay the amount claimed if you can, in order to avoid potential criminal proceedings, and then follow up with customer services to see if some sort of arrangement can be arrived at out of goodwill.

 

[PatrickO]

You will have to pay it. Have you got a friend or someone who can lend you the money or your son will have to face the consequences.

As I said, what type of ticket did he hold? Was it two Advance purchases?

The original tickets were confiscated so we don't have them any more. The tickets were purchased online in advance.

Is there any point at all writing to explain the mitigating circumstances? Or will that just prolong the process with no hope of any leniency?

 

[island]

Is there any point at all writing to explain the mitigating circumstances? Or will that just prolong the process with no hope of any leniency?

What mitigating circumstances do you have in mind and why did you not mention them already?

It may prolong the process and result in further admin fees, or they may decide you are trying to string them along and just issue a prosecution.

 

[PatrickO]

What mitigating circumstances do you have in mind and why did you not mention them already?

Mention to who? The railway company? This is the first communication we have had.

 

[ModernRailways]

The original tickets were confiscated so we don't have them any more. The tickets were purchased online in advance.

Is there any point at all writing to explain the mitigating circumstances? Or will that just prolong the process with no hope of any leniency?

Pay it before the date on the letter. You then don't have to worry about your son having to go to court etc. If you can't afford it, ask a friend or relative if they can lend you the money. If not, go to Citizen's Advice. They really can do a lot to help you out!

Remember, not paying and continually appealing won't help matters. Your son travelled without a valid ticket. If you don't pay this time, there is a very high chance of you being taken to court. Not only will you (he) pay more, but he may also receive a criminal record which could affect his future/current career choices.

After you have paid and received confirmation follow it up with them and make sure to tell them everything and ask if you could be refunded with the exception of any Admin costs that have been incurred.

I'm sure someone from these forums would help you with a letter if you wanted to appeal, once you have paid though.

 

[PatrickO]

Pay it before the date on the letter. You then don't have to worry about your son having to go to court etc. If you can't afford it, ask a friend or relative if they can lend you the money. If not, go to Citizen's Advice. They really can do a lot to help you out!

Remember, not paying and continually appealing won't help matters. Your son travelled without a valid ticket. If you don't pay this time, there is a very high chance of you being taken to court. Not only will you (he) pay more, but he may also receive a criminal record which could affect his future/current career choices.

After you have paid and received confirmation follow it up with them and make sure to tell them everything and ask if you could be refunded with the exception of any Admin costs that have been incurred.

I'm sure someone from these forums would help you with a letter if you wanted to appeal, once you have paid though.

Thank you for that clear advice. We can afford to pay, luckily.

Do others agree the best course is to pay in full, and then write to Customer Services?

 

[furlong]

Nothing to lose in providing details of the mitigating circumstances and a copy of the railcard.

You also have the option of splitting the payment across several cheques e.g. outward fare (full or excess); admin costs; remainder in the hope that they will decide not to cash them all.

 

[island]

Nothing to lose in providing details of the mitigating circumstances and a copy of the railcard.

You also have the option of splitting the payment across several cheques e.g. outward fare (full or excess); admin costs; remainder in the hope that they will decide not to cash them all.

Agreed. In my opinion the amount to be paid should have been £135.10 i.e. the anytime single from Norwich to Castle Cary, to be paid within 10 days of the first demand, and then if the passenger could retrieve or acquire a Railcard by the time of the return journey that would be the end of the matter.

 

[ModernRailways]

Agreed. In my opinion the amount to be paid should have been £135.10 i.e. the anytime single from Norwich to Castle Cary, to be paid within 10 days of the first demand, and then if the passenger could retrieve or acquire a Railcard by the time of the return journey that would be the end of the matter.

I was thinking the same, especially since it is Advance tickets. Both journeys are essentially single trips, and as such the 'Return' tickets need not have been shown. However, the general train user books a return journey and thinks it's a return ticket.

Right now though it would be better for PatrickO to pay and appeal rather than appeal and pay since the cost will only keep rising.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Agreed. In my opinion the amount to be paid should have been £135.10 i.e. the anytime single from Norwich to Castle Cary, to be paid within 10 days of the first demand, and then if the passenger could retrieve or acquire a Railcard by the time of the return journey that would be the end of the matter.

That would be my opinion as well. An SOS/SDS for the full journey, rather than the portion said person was caught on.

 

[bb21]

I would agree that you should pay it now if you can afford it so that at least the situation cannot get worse.

I am not totally surprised that you have been billed for the return fare, especially as you have already mentioned this in your very first post. It is slightly puzzling why he was not given a chance to sort out the Railcard for the return leg, if your son held two Advance tickets rather than a return ticket. That said, I do not know what conversation took place when the UPFN was issued so they might have a perfectly good reason for issuing that. (If he booked the tickets online, he should be able to log into his account and recall the details of those bookings.)

You can write to customer services and point this out to them, and explain your mitigating circumstances, after you have paid. You can't lose by doing so.

Nevertheless they could have charged the full £269 if they wanted, so an element of discretion has been applied I think.

 

[34D]

Thank you for that clear advice. We can afford to pay, luckily.

Do others agree the best course is to pay in full, and then write to Customer Services?

On the assumption that you wish to totally remove the threat of court action, yes.

I would (personally) send one cheque for the whole amount. Once that has been cashed, then this forum will help you write a letter to FGW explaining son new to rail travel/amount charged is wrong/etc etc.

Do appreciate that the prosecutions and customer services departments are completely different

 

[Flamingo]

I can't quite understand this thread. The chap was travelling on an invalid ticket due to a missing railcard which he could not realistically replace before his return journey (as otherwise, I'm assuming he would have done so at London). Instead of leaving him stranded in Castle Cary, the RPI ensured he could return to home with no further trouble and pay the undiscounted return journey at a later date, instead of a bylaw prosecution for travelling on an invalid ticket.

The OP's response to this is to complain about how poorly his son had been treated, and some others on the site are rallying around to agree.

Personally I think the OP has very little to complain about, and even less entitlement to a refund.

 

[34D]

I can't quite understand this thread. The chap was travelling on an invalid ticket due to a missing railcard which he could not realistically replace before his return journey (as otherwise, I'm assuming he would have done so at London).

Are there no photo kiosks at Castle Cary? No ticket office able to do railcards there?

Or more pertinently, no post office? Assuming a 3 day pop festival and guaranteed next day, Post Restante would have been fine.

 

[island]

It was mentioned up thread that he had a mate coming a day later with whom the Railcard could have been sent and that the booking office at Liverpool Street failed or refused to sell him a new Railcard.

 

[jon0844]

I can't see anyone refused to issue a new railcard, but expect they wanted the full fee and perhaps it was expected that they'd issue a replacement free after checking a national database.

 

[island]

I can't see anyone refused to issue a new railcard, but expect they wanted the full fee and perhaps it was expected that they'd issue a replacement free after checking a national database.

From the OP:

He went to the ticket office at Liverpool St , but met a total blank wall from the staff who would not even discuss the problem with him.

 

[jon0844]

As I wasn't there, I don't know what happened but still believe that the conversation went along the lines of asking for a replacement, but not necessarily wanting to pay for a new railcard and filling in a new form, providing a new photo etc.

Doesn't it seem unlikely that a station like LST would not have a single open window where someone would sell a railcard?

 

[ModernRailways]

I can't quite understand this thread. The chap was travelling on an invalid ticket due to a missing railcard which he could not realistically replace before his return journey (as otherwise, I'm assuming he would have done so at London). Instead of leaving him stranded in Castle Cary, the RPI ensured he could return to home with no further trouble and pay the undiscounted return journey at a later date, instead of a bylaw prosecution for travelling on an invalid ticket.

The OP's response to this is to complain about how poorly his son had been treated, and some others on the site are rallying around to agree.

Personally I think the OP has very little to complain about, and even less entitlement to a refund.

They should have been given a fine for not having the railcard for the outward. However, the Railcard could have been presented. As mentioned you can send it via the Post office and get it there next day.

If OP pays they can feel free to appeal and do whatever since it's paid for and they have nothing to lose, but possibly more to gain. I've been in a similar incident with Northern Rail I paid the £143.10 they asked for and then appealed. I got the money back plus some vouchers. I knew I hadn't done wrong, but I didn't want any unnecessary threats from them.

In my opinion, OP has been fairly lucky in that he hasn't been made to pay full Adult fare + admin costs. The price of their original ticket was deducted and as such it is cheaper. They didn't have too, since they have a clear case that would win in court.

Ticketing can be difficult but there was nothing difficult about this ticket so that can't be used as an excuse. OP's son left their Railcard behind and that is part of the ticket thus there ticket wasn't allowed.

 

[Flamingo]

Are there no photo kiosks at Castle Cary? No ticket office able to do railcards there?

Or more pertinently, no post office? Assuming a 3 day pop festival and guaranteed next day, Post Restante would have been fine.

There were photo kiosks and ticket offices at two major stations the passenger had already passed through after they were told they needed a railcard.

As regards the RC being posted on, I'm afraid in that situation if I was the RPI being told that, my response would have been "Yea, right!". I have occasionally let people travel on the outward journey with no YP when told a story like that, and written on the return ticket "Check RC". I have never ever met anybody on their return journey with the railcard, but have often met them on the return journey, still without the railcard they swore blind they were getting / having posted before their return journey.

I still think that FGW dealt reasonably with the passenger - they furnished him wi a valid ticket home (a large part of the journey was not with FGW, don't forget) and billed him for the cost of it.

 

[Llanigraham]

Presuming that the OP travelled on a Friday, then Castle Cary PO is only open until 1230 on a Saturday:
http://www.iopeningtimes.co.uk/Post-Office/Castle-Cary/
So it is most unlikely that a letter posted Post Restante on Friday would have been delivered in time for him to collect on the Saturday.
Pay up in full.

 

[transmanche]

Presuming that the OP travelled on a Friday, then Castle Cary PO is only open until 1230 on a Saturday:
http://www.iopeningtimes.co.uk/Post-Office/Castle-Cary/
So it is most unlikely that a letter posted Post Restante on Friday would have been delivered in time for him to collect on the Saturday.

Have you not heard of Special Delivery?

Saturday delivery to get those tickets or birthday gifts there for the weekend.

 

[reb0118]

Have you not heard of Special Delivery?

Saturday Special Delivery not valid to Post Offices it seems. Here, check out the FAQs.

 

[transmanche]

Saturday Special Delivery not valid to Post Offices it seems.

I doubt that's of much consequence, as the OP said the outbound journey was on the Wednesday. And in any event, surely he'd have needed to pick-up the letter by following Monday for the return journey home - so the Saturday is irrelevant.

 

[s2345]

The key question is what was said during the discussions with the guard when the tickets were withdrawn. If the guard believed that there was no possibility of getting the railcard to the OP's son (or even one was held in the first place) then arguably the course of action taken prevents further problems for both sides. Whether this is the correct policy if the tickets were two Advance singles is debatable.

However, and this is my view on the subject IF the tickets consist of two Advances, is that these should be treated as entirely separate journeys. It is not a requirement to carry the "return" journey when using the first ticket so why should it be involved in a dispute concerning the unrelated first "outward" portion. Treat what you have in front of you, if the passenger is stupid enough to try it again on the way back home then they better be ready to face the consequences for that.

Given that this was on the Wednesday (I've just checked the OP) and the main music performances at Glastonbury didn't start till the Friday I think it's pretty unreasonable for anyone on here to be saying that it was impossible for the railcard to reach the passenger concerned. 130,000 people travel to the event, I suspect the passenger might know someone else who is coming from Norwich if they were desperate to get it - I know I went to music festivals as part of a social group and we didn't all arrive at the same time! It is still beside the point however, the passenger would have been well aware after the first encounter of the consequences of attempting to travel for a 2nd time without the railcard and I would have zero sympathy for anyone doing so. I just don't see what justification there is for treating two Advance tickets effectively as a return, if that is indeed the case, in terms prosecution.

 

[34D]

There were photo kiosks and ticket offices at two major stations

But possibly the OP's son didn't fully understand the issue until the FGW Revenue Protection Assistant explained it at Castle Cary?

After all, if you forget your Tesco clubcard you receive good customer service (bring your receipt in next time for your points to be added), if you forget or loose theatre tickets they can be looked up on the database and be reprinted, if you don't have your driving licence when stopped by the police you can produce it within 14 days, forget your proof of age at a nooightclub and you'll often be subject to the attitude test, etc etc.

People make the mistake of thinking the railways will adhere to the same pro-customer principles as the rest of the world, when in truth they have a dark side, involving criminal prosecutions and 'discretion'.

Not saying its wrong or right, but there you go.

 

[AlterEgo]

After all, if you forget your Tesco clubcard you receive good customer service (bring your receipt in next time for your points to be added)

That's a poor comparison. There's no potential loss to Tesco in that scenario. There is in the example in the OP. A better comparison would be "If I forget to pay for my £100 worth of shopping in Tesco, then eat all the food, they will allow me to pay within the week".

if you forget or loose theatre tickets they can be looked up on the database and be reprinted

Because theatre tickets are valid in the booked seat only. Ticket holders on a train can sit anywhere, in effect. It would not be possible to discern if someone is "trying it on", whereas the theatre can do that quite easily by seeing if the seats are still unoccupied.

Theatres also don't provide an essential public service that suffers from pernicious fraud from a section of its users.

if you don't have your driving licence when stopped by the police you can produce it within 14 days

Don't really see how the police provide "customer service"!

The police, if you don't do that, will send the boys round and knock on your door. The police can arrest and detain you, and they know where you live, and they will come and find you. It's easy for them to enforce.



I understand the point you try to make, and I wouldn't agree that the railways are a bastion of fantastic customer care. I think, however, we should be realistic with how the railways can practicably deal with members of the public who appear to have not paid the proper fare.

 

[Flamingo]

Sorry 34D, your arguments are getting more and more tenuous. If the passenger had not sorted it out at London, they were not likely to have a special delivery made to a post office, or even have considered it as an option.

Lets suppose the RPI had given every passenger missing a railcard a UFN for an open single - and written on their return ticket (of whatever type) "Check Railcard" and the reference number of the first UFN.

When the 99 out of 100 who did NOT have a mate who could bring their railcard or had it delivered by special courier or airdropped by the Red Cross turn up on the train with that ticket, they are now open to prosecution as they are knowingly using an invalid ticket.

Would that be good "customer care"?

Instead of which, as I keep repeating, they were given a valid ticket home - which they now have to pay for.