First TransPennine Express Revenue Protection??

[185143]

Today I travelled on the 10:50 FTPE service from Birchwood to Manchester Piccadilly. The bus I was travelling on to Birchwood station was late, meaning that the train was standing in the platform when I arrived. I boarded the train, without a ticket, under the assumption I could buy on board as I have seen people doing this from Birchwood before.

The guard came round to check tickets, asked for mine and I requested to purchase a TfGM day ranger. I had the map from NRE with me at the time, which I have uploaded, which I produced when he said the ranger wasn't valid from Birchwood.

He then went on to say that he could only issue Singles and Returns on the train. He charged me the full £3.85 Child Anytime day return fare.

When I arrived at Manchester Piccadilly, the inspector, who I happen to know, said that I had paid too much for the ticket.

Have I paid too much??

 

[yorkie]

Today I travelled on the 10:50 FTPE service from Birchwood to Manchester Piccadilly. The bus I was travelling on to Birchwood station was late, meaning that the train was standing in the platform when I arrived. I boarded the train, without a ticket, under the assumption I could buy on board as I have seen people doing this from Birchwood before.

TPE posters and announcements advertise the fact that you can purchase full-fare tickets on-board. No railcard discounts, and no off peak products (unless, of course, the ticket office was closed!)

The guard came round to check tickets, asked for mine and I requested to purchase a TfGM day ranger. I had the map from NRE with me at the time, which I have uploaded, which I produced when he said the ranger wasn't valid from Birchwood.

It clearly is shown by NRE as valid.

Last time I encountered a TPE RPI, he laughed and said he'd heard of neither place, and accepted the ticket. It was nice to see a friendly RPI, yes they really do exist! But obviously, you encountered someone else.

He then went on to say that he could only issue Singles and Returns on the train. He charged me the full £3.85 Child Anytime day return fare.

Well, that's a debatable matter. Is this product a 'full fare' product? Arguably not. And if not then technically TPE can refuse to sell it on board, if the ticket office was open.

 

[bb21]

The TfGM ticketing area finishes at Glazebrook so the Rail Ranger is not valid at Birchwood. The map on the NRE website is wrong.

The correct map is contained in the leaflet "Freedom of the City" at the bottom of this page.

I am not convinced as to the validity of your arguments due to the mistake on the NRE website. You were effectively advised of the validity when you purchased your tickets and no contract had been entered into prior to that.

A copy of the map is also available here.

 

[yorkie]

I am not convinced as to the validity of your arguments due to the mistake on the NRE website. .

Hmm, I also looked at the NRE website (View area of validity map for this product), and it clearly shows validity to Birchwood. I feel that should be honoured.

National Rail Enquiries (NRE) is the definitive source of information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network

One day I hope someone puts that to the test, and sees if the TOC backs down or if they really take someone who adheres to NRE to court (but only if the customer had proper legal representation).

The balance of power needs to shift, as right now they can say "Here is the definitive info..." and then turn round and say "right, forget that, the definitive info is wrong, you must pay more money than we advertised or we'll give you a criminal record". Perhaps one day someone will stand up for our rights. Or maybe we'll get a proper ombudsman, but I doubt that, as the DfT will not allow it.

 

[Greenback]

I agree with Yorkie. If this is the place that should be the first stop for anyone planning rail travel, then any errors on the site in terms of validity shown on maps should be honoured.

Inconsistency between sources is a plague of the industry. If there is any officially published information anywhere which is to the benefit of the passenger then that should be allowed. It is the only way to encourage TOC's (and others) to actually read what they are putting out into the public domain.

 

[maniacmartin]

I agree with yorkie.

By boarding the train, an implied contract has been entered that the passenger will buy a ticket for the journey, and it would be reasonable for the price to match that which is advertised by the TOC's trade body.

 

[island]

Irrespective of whether the ranger ticket was valid or not, the passenger should have bought before boarding and was correctly sold an anytime ticket on board.

 

[sheff1]

The TfGM website states that the Rail ranger is 'Available at the station or on the train if the station booking office is closed.'

As the booking office was open then it seems reasonable that it was not sold on the train.

With regards to the mapping discrepancy, if one purchases at Birchwood booking office what is their take on it being valid from there without an additional ticket to Glazebrook ?

 

[bb21]

I know the NRE site claims to be the definitive source, however it is a PTE product, so I am unsure whether that carries more weight or whether the TfGM map is actually the definitive source. (Not that it should be a concern for the unsuspecting passenger.)

It would be interesting for a case to go to court.

My point about a contract not having been formed still stands, which makes this a quite substantially different case to one where a passenger is sold a ticket in conjunction with an otherwise invalid itinerary.

 

[transmanche]

The TfGM website states that the Rail ranger is 'Available at the station or on the train if the station booking office is closed.'

The TGfM website is a joke. It doesn't even specify what the geographic restrictions on the Rail Ranger are. It just says, "Unlimited travel after 9.30am on weekdays and all day at weekends and bank holidays".

Whereas for the Train Card, it specifically states "Traincard is a rail season ticket that lets you travel by train anywhere in Greater Manchester". Then below that it randomly gives a link for Wayfarer ticket information - without even telling you what a Wayfarer is.

A very poorly-written website.

 

[Greenback]

Irrespective of whether the ranger ticket was valid or not, the passenger should have bought before boarding and was correctly sold an anytime ticket on board.

I agree.

I know the NRE site claims to be the definitive source, however it is a PTE product, so I am unsure whether that carries more weight or whether the TfGM map is actually the definitive source. (Not that it should be a concern for the unsuspecting passenger.)

Indeed. I wonder how anyone who is unfamiliar with rail travel is expected to work out the UK ticketing system!

The National Rail site should be the definitive source of information whether a ticket is a PTE product or not. Of course we don't live in an ideal world, so like many things in the rail industry I expect that someone in the PTE would dispute this if a complaint were made. As far as I'm concerned, if the ticket has a rail element anythign on the NRE site, whether an error or not, should be permitted. But that's probably far too simpel for this country.

It would be interesting for a case to go to court.

No, it would be VERY interesting!

 

[beeza1]

Here we go again, NRE not giving the correct information, some of the more cynical may suggest it's yet another form of "entrapment" by the TOC's, after all there is a link to NRE on ATOC's own website.
I liken it to driving past a 50mph sign and then being "pulled" for exceeding 30mph, you would say "but the speed limit is 50mph officer, it states so on the sign, sorry sir the sign is wrong".
I too would like to see a case go to court, I think the TOC would be laughed out of court with hopefully a rap on the knuckles and a large bill for costs.

 

[34D]

Is the Birchwood thoing a simple mistake, or has the area of validity changed?

(I'm just asking out of personal interest).

Regarding 'full fare' tickets, if this ranger was a peak ticket do we think it ought to have been sold? Or do we not think it works thus?

If I were the op I'd have tried to get an exchange when I arrived

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The Birchwood thing is a mistake. The GM One Day Rail Ranger is NOT valid to Birchwood. Nor is it valid on the entire Metrolink System as shown on the map too. Good luck arguing with Metrolink ticket inpectors on that one!

The GM Wayfarer is valid to Birchwood, and is also valid on the whole Metrolink system, and as this can now be purchased on board you might consider that instead.

GM Ticketing is a mess, I just wish they would stick to one boundary and one product name of tickets - and if they must have different boundaries don't give them the same product name. I.e. don't call the Wayfarer a GM Wayfarer when it is valid well outside the GM area, when the similarly named GM Rail Ranger is not!

 

[bb21]

Here we go again, NRE not giving the correct information, some of the more cynical may suggest it's yet another form of "entrapment" by the TOC's, after all there is a link to NRE on ATOC's own website.
I liken it to driving past a 50mph sign and then being "pulled" for exceeding 30mph, you would say "but the speed limit is 50mph officer, it states so on the sign, sorry sir the sign is wrong".
I too would like to see a case go to court, I think the TOC would be laughed out of court with hopefully a rap on the knuckles and a large bill for costs.

Not helping. It is a simple mistake, full stop, probably because someone working there was not dedicated enough to his job to pay close attention to what he was doing. Passengers shouldn't be penalised for a mistake on NRE's part, but accusing them of entrapment is neither here nor there.

 

[185143]

If I were the op I'd have tried to get an exchange when I arrived

I did, but because it was a direct TPE service which hadn't stopped, even on produced of the NRE map, both Northern at Oxford Road and Virgin at Piccadilly wouldn't honour the ranger in view of the mistake on NRE's part. Piccadilly did give me a form to complain to ATOC about it though.

 

[34D]

So is this incorrect map still live, as of today?

If so, can I suggest you email FTPE to complain about your treatment, and to ask them to use their influence within ATOC to get this map corrected immediately.

 

[bb21]

I did, but because it was a direct TPE service which hadn't stopped, even on produced of the NRE map, both Northern at Oxford Road and Virgin at Piccadilly wouldn't honour the ranger in view of the mistake on NRE's part. Piccadilly did give me a form to complain to ATOC about it though.

I'm not sure what they are really supposed to do. It would be a passenger-friendly approach if they honoured the validity from Birchwood in view of the error, however they have no obligation to.

They pointed out the error to you prior to the sale so I can't see how you have a case on Northern or Virgin.

If you had bought a ticket but were refused travel then it would be a different matter.

So is this incorrect map still live, as of today?

Well, ATOC are not know for their efficiency in that regard, are they?

 

[sheff1]

If you had bought a ticket but were refused travel then it would be a different matter.

Exactly. Hence why I asked what the Birchwood booking office take was.

 

[Muzer]

For some reason when I first read the thread of this title I parsed it as "(First TransPennine) (Express Revenue Protection??)", ie they were doing some really speedy revenue protection compared to normal

 

[185143]

Exactly. Hence why I asked what the Birchwood booking office take was.

I went to the ticket office at Birchwood today and asked for a GM Rail Ranger. The ticket seller said that I needed a return to Glazebrook for this to be valid. Could the RPI have passed on the information about the map being invalid?
EDIT:I can also confirm, after complaining to ATOC, the invalid map has now been removed from NRE's website, and is available here http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr76259d68a84d788a6a614755683b8f.aspx

 

[bb21]

I went to the ticket office at Birchwood today and asked for a GM Rail Ranger. The ticket seller said that I needed a return to Glazebrook for this to be valid. Could the RPI have passed on the information about the map being invalid?

I doubt that they needed to be informed of this by the RPI.

The ticket is not valid there. Given that they are the first station outside the validity area, it would not surprise me that they are well aware of that fact. A return to Glazebrook plus a Rail Ranger would still not be valid on TPE services. You will need the train to call at the station where you change from one to the other.

You need to lodge a complaint with ATOC/NRE if you wish to air your grievances.

EDIT:I can also confirm, after complaining to ATOC, the invalid map has now been removed from NRE's website, and is available here http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr76259d68a84d788a6a614755683b8f.aspx

Now the speed of that even surprised me. Well done.

I wish they would now update the link to the map in The Manual.

 

[185143]

I doubt that they needed to be informed of this by the RPI.

The ticket is not valid there. Given that they are the first station outside the validity area, it would not surprise me that they are well aware of that fact. A return to Glazebrook plus a Rail Ranger would still not be valid on TPE services. You will need the train to call at the station where you change from one to the other.

You need to lodge a complaint with ATOC/NRE if you wish to air your grievances.



Now the speed of that even surprised me. Well done.

I wish they would now update the link to the map in The Manual.

I was told at the ticket office today when I requested a return to Irlam and a rail ranger that I might as well get a return to Glazebrook as the station where the ticket splits just has to be served by the TOC you are using.??

It wasn't as quick as you thought, I complained to ATOC at 20:26 last night.

 

[bb21]

I was told at the ticket office today when I requested a return to Irlam and a rail ranger that I might as well get a return to Glazebrook as the station where the ticket splits just has to be served by the TOC you are using.??

If you want to use it on TPE, then you will need to apply Condition 19 of the NRCoC. Neither of the tickets are zonal (or it is possible to argue that one it zonal, but the other isn't), neither are season tickets, so your train must stop at the change-over point.

There may be local easements which I am not sure about.

 

[Starmill]

Project Mapping have made a mistake with their cropped version? Wow, stop the presses.

Seriously though there are some discrepancies about which stations are within GM and which aren't.

Northern are as confused as NRE look!

http://www.northernrail.org/pdfs/network_map/nr_network-map-may2013.pdf

they miss out Dinting, Glossop and Hadfield.

Although that map does rather make it look as though the TfGM and WY Metro areas join up

The TfGM map is the 'correct' one on this matter though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Birchwood thing is a mistake. The GM One Day Rail Ranger is NOT valid to Birchwood. Nor is it valid on the entire Metrolink System as shown on the map too. Good luck arguing with Metrolink ticket inpectors on that one!

Easy: 'I asked the guard and he said it was valid on the tram!'

Being serious, I'd question if you've ever seen a ticket check by the Passenger Service Representatives if think someone needs luck for that?

Note that even now that that old map has been replaced on the NRE site by the official TfGM one -http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/promotions/GMPTE.pdfthe whole of Metrolink is still shown!

 

[185]

Easy: 'I asked the guard and he said it was valid on the tram!'

FAIL

£100 please. :P

 

[michael769]

I know the NRE site claims to be the definitive source, however it is a PTE product, so I am unsure whether that carries more weight or whether the TfGM map is actually the definitive source. (Not that it should be a concern for the unsuspecting passenger.)

It would. When carried on a NR train irrespective of the product used there is a contract between the Passenger and the ToC and the terms of that contract include any advertised promises made by the ToC or their authorized representatives (which is what NR is).

It would be interesting for a case to go to court.

Not going to happen. The industry would not be prepared to risk a precedent of this nature being set - they would be risking a significant detriment for very little gain.

My point about a contract not having been formed still stands, which makes this a quite substantially different case to one where a passenger is sold a ticket in conjunction with an otherwise invalid itinerary.

No it's the same principle, the contract is not limited to the written terms and conditions but to all promises and agreements made between the parties, including advertising. As long as a party can prove that a promise was made then it is enforceable.

There can be issues where terms conflict with each other, but in consumer disputes - at least in modern times - the courts will always rule in favor of the consumer where there is an doubt.

For the OP. Send the ToC an invoice for the amount and any other costs you have incurred citing a breach of the condition agreed with you and National Rail on their behalf.

 

[Starmill]

FAIL

£100 please. :P

I hope you realised it was a joke...

Or would you be too bitter to allow someone to pay the £4.90 if they came out with that?

 

[185]

I hope you realised it was a joke...

I thought us people who check tickets have no sense of humour!?!

Well, I'm doing well this week, I've only been called a fascist the once. Well, so far...

 

[Flamingo]

I thought us people who check tickets have no sense of humour!?!

Well, I'm doing well this week, I've only been called a fascist the once. Well, so far...

Be fair, you are on a weeks leave...