Southern EMU order confirmed

[D365]

Could this be due to anything discussed on the "Class 377/6 - more info" thread? Hillstart button position and suchlike...

 

[paul1609]

The leasing companies prefer a 20m unit because it maximises the chances of hiring the train to another TOC elsewhere in the country if the original operator does not renew the lease. This is also one of the reasons why all recent orders have been dual voltage or easily convertable. Less of an issue for DMUs as most of the routes not cleared for 23m stock are south of London - though there are a few elsewhere including some in the Cardiff Valleys.

It would be interesting to know how much infrastructure actually needs changing, and at what cost, to run 23m stock more widely. RSSB have done some studies on gauge but I don't think they've looked at that question. With better infrastructure data and less conservative methods of gauging it's possilble that a lot more of the network could be made accessible to 23m vehicles at relatively low cost. Though of course an operator like Southern they probably wouldn't be interested until all their network was cleared.

Another possible issue is that the 23m stock based on the Mk3 coach dimensions is a bit narrower than 20m stock, which could make a difference particularly with 2+3 seating. Classes 165 and 166 are wider than other 23m stock and therefore more restricted in where they can operate.

I dont think that there is actually very much of the current Southern Franchise that isnt cleared for 23 m vehicles.
171s run London Bridge to Brighton/ Lewes and Uckfield / East Grinstead and all the east Coastway.
170s/158s run all the West Coastway, 442s run Victoria to Brighton/ Hove /Eastbourne, 220s have run through the West London Line and also via Crystal Palace.
165s run Reigate to Gatwick and are cleared up to Selhurst for refuelling.

 

[387star]

Sorry if mentioned but what does this mean for conductors post cascade given they are DOO on thameslink
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

FGW will need emu's for the Thames Valley branches as well as local services from Raeading to Bassingstoke/Newbury & Bedwyn as well as for use between Reading & Oxford/Banbury.

Of course with the electric spine some of the GW locals which terminate at Oxford could be extended to Milton Keynes/Bedford. You also have the possibility of local services from Reading to Heathrow although these may be operated by crossrail.

The GW franchise could also use emu's for some services between Bristol & Cardiff/Swansea

So reading to basingstoke will be wired up?

 

[SussexSpotter]

So reading to basingstoke will be wired up?

Correct!

 

[anthony263]

Sorry if mentioned but what does this mean for conductors post cascade given they are DOO on thameslink
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So reading to basingstoke will be wired up?

Yes Reading - Bassingstoke will be electrified as it is part of the electric spine.

So not only with the Reading - Bassingstoke shuttles be worked by emu's so will the Manchester - Bournemouth services which I do hope will be extended back to Poole

 

[SussexSpotter]

Won't be for a few more years yet though!...

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry if mentioned but what does this mean for conductors post cascade given they are DOO on thameslink

It doesn't necessarily imply that anything will change on the manning policy. There have been plenty of previous franchise mergers where operating routines have stayed the same as they were in constituent parts, eg the former Thames Trains are DOO within FGW, without it being extended to every route.

 

[Class377/5]

Order officially confirmed.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/commuters-to-benefit-from-state-of-the-art-electric-trains

Press release

Commuters to benefit from state-of-the-art electric trains
Southern signs £180 million deal for additional 116 train carriages with Bombardier.

Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin has welcomed an order for more than 100 new electric train carriages while seeing the first of a British-built fleet being readied for use at a London depot today.

Following an open procurement competition Southern has signed a second contract with Derby-based train builders Bombardier, worth £180 million, for an additional 116 carriages, which will serve some of the capital’s busiest commuter routes from 2015.

Confirmation of the deal came as the Transport Secretary visited the Stewarts Lane Depot in Battersea where the train operator is currently preparing a new fleet of 130 carriages for use on its services from December. A further 40 vehicles will be delivered in the early part of next year.

Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin said:

London’s commuters deserve a first class rail network and comfortable modern trains, Southern is delivering that. This second order will also provide a further boost to the thousands of passengers who travel into London every day.
A successful rail network is vital for the economic prosperity of the country and its standing in the global race. The fact that these trains are made in Britain also protects jobs outside of the capital.

The 116 new carriages will initially be used on the Thameslink route allowing the release of existing rolling stock to newly electrified routes across the country.

Southern Managing Director Chris Burchell said:

We are delighted that the order we have signed today will help our industry grow. Southern has a great record in new train introduction and we are pleased to be able to offer our expertise in helping the Department for Transport deliver the benefits of the Thameslink programme.
Meanwhile, Southern is currently testing its new fleet of carriages ahead of their introduction on the network just 2 years after the deal with Bombardier was signed. This will allow up to 10 car trains to run on some of the operator’s busiest Metro routes, including trains via Norbury, Streatham Hill and Hackbridge, boosting capacity by 10%.

Southern Fleet Director Gerry McFadden said:

Getting the trains built, tested and in service within a 2 year time scale is setting a new record for train delivery, but we and Bombardier are determined to provide our passengers with the longer trains they have been promised.

The Commercial Director for Bombardier Transportation UK, Des McKeon, said:

It is great to see the first of Southern’s 130 new carriages being delivered here today. Production of the rest of the order is progressing on time in Derby. We are confident of delivering the rest of the fleet in line with Southern’s requirements and meeting their challenge of getting these units ready for passenger service later this year.

The order underlines the strength of the relationship Bombardier has with Southern and the DfT – a relationship born out of our strong performance on existing contracts. It reinforces the quality of our products and our ability to deliver on time to demanding schedules. It is further evidence of the dedication and skills of our people in the UK.

Paul Francis Managing Director of Porterbrook which financed the 130 carriages being introduced in December, said:

We’re delighted to have been appointed financier for the purchase of these new Electrostar trains which will operate with the other 792 Electrostar vehicles we have on lease with Southern. We reiterate our hope that this is only the start of ongoing investment opportunities in new and existing rolling stock over the coming years as franchises are re-let.

Notes to editors

In December 2011, Southern signed a deal worth £188 million with Bombardier for 130 carriages following an extensive procurement process which will see the trains delivered in 2013. An option for a further 40 vehicles was confirmed in December 2012. They will enter service in the early part of 2014 on the South London network.

The company ran a second open competition in December 2012 for 116 carriages, with the option of a further 140 if further investment opportunities can be identified. Bombardier was announced as the preferred bidder earlier this year, with the contract being agreed this month.

Southern will hold an open competition to finance the second order in due course.
The permanent rolling stock for the Thameslink project is being delivered by Siemens, who are building 1,140 carriages for the programme. The first trains will enter service in 2016, with the introduction of the full fleet by the end of 2018. Once the new Thameslink rolling stock has been delivered these 116 carriages will also transfer to operate on newly electrified roués elsewhere in England.

Ten-car Metro trains will be introduced on the following routes this December:

• Victoria to Dorking/Horsham via Hackbridge and Epsom
• Victoria to Epsom Downs via Norbury
• Victoria to West Croydon via Streatham Hill
• Victoria to London Bridge via Streatham Hill and Crystal Palace
• London Bridge to Epsom/Guildford via Norwood Junction
• London Bridge and Victoria to Caterham and Tattenham Corner (train divides Purley)

 

[Manchester77]

DfT have released images of the 377/6 on their flickr account.
Images include the interior which looks quite nice IMO

http://www.flickr.com/photos/transportgovuk/9401075810/ - interior

http://www.flickr.com/photos/transportgovuk/9398309735/ - 377606 exterior outside derby

 

[tbtc]

The company ran a second open competition in December 2012 for 116 carriages, with the option of a further 140 if further investment opportunities can be identified

I was worried that the announcement of the "116" may have been a good time to drop references to the "140", so good to see that the "follow on" is still on the agenda.

 

[Class377/5]

I was worried that the announcement of the "116" may have been a good time to drop references to the "140", so good to see that the "follow on" is still on the agenda.

The wording struck me as strange.

The company ran a second open competition in December 2012 for 116 carriages, with the option of a further 140 if further investment opportunities can be identified. Bombardier was announced as the preferred bidder earlier this year, with the contract being agreed this month.

As they trying to work out who could afford to take on a fleet of 64 dual voltage units? TPE with eight car SDO services would make sense. Unless of course MML services gets them. Derby gets stick with Derby built trains......

 

[387star]

would seem the days of high density crampt seating is over with wider trains and more standing space.. looks good and seats look smarter... southern have done well installing carpets throughout

 

[hwl]

The wording struck me as strange.

As they trying to work out who could afford to take on a fleet of 64 dual voltage units? TPE with eight car SDO services would make sense. Unless of course MML services gets them. Derby gets stick with Derby built trains......

That sounds like subject to ROSCO signing up to me, i.e. the ROSCO have to be convinced that there is a customer for them after 3-4 years with Thameslink.
Which might in turn be reliant on the re-franchise process and increased service levels.

My guess is that they would be split between 2 TOCs. For example Southeastern are apparently interested is some more EMUs (thread from several months ago).
Also TPE wouldn't be able to use all the 256 until some electrification in CP6 was done.

 

[joeykins82]

I thought the released & refurb'ed 319s were being split between the north western electrification routes and the thames valley services?

 

[jon0844]

Getting the trains built, tested and in service within a 2 year time scale is setting a new record for train delivery, but we and Bombardier are determined to provide our passengers with the longer trains they have been promised.

Does anyone want Bombardier wanting to try and set a new record?!

Or will they build them in record time and then tighten up the screws and bolts when they're in service?

 

[tbtc]

The wording struck me as strange.

As they trying to work out who could afford to take on a fleet of 64 dual voltage units? TPE with eight car SDO services would make sense. Unless of course MML services gets them. Derby gets stick with Derby built trains......

At least if they ran on the MML, the stops at Derby could turn into "pit stops" with a handful of people standing on the platform with spanners to tighten everything up as they pass through?

 

[anthony263]

Seems to be the general opinion that the 110mph units will be heading to FGW

 

[Class377/5]

That sounds like subject to ROSCO signing up to me, i.e. the ROSCO have to be convinced that there is a customer for them after 3-4 years with Thameslink.
Which might in turn be reliant on the re-franchise process and increased service levels.

My guess is that they would be split between 2 TOCs. For example Southeastern are apparently interested is some more EMUs (thread from several months ago).
Also TPE wouldn't be able to use all the 256 until some electrification in CP6 was done.

True however stock would be fully released until May 2018 with TPE North wiring finishing in December 2018 (unless they've moved the date back) so they could move straight over as with driver training on the Scottish route.

Does anyone want Bombardier wanting to try and set a new record?!

Or will they build them in record time and then tighten up the screws and bolts when they're in service?

Two years from order placed until full fleet delivered for fleet of units using an existing design and different power collections from the last order. Hardly challenging.

At least if they ran on the MML, the stops at Derby could turn into "pit stops" with a handful of people standing on the platform with spanners to tighten everything up as they pass through?

There is the proposed 2tph 4/8/12 car Leicester - St Pancras 'stopper' that could do with gangwayed stock of at least 100mph.

Seems to be the general opinion that the 110mph units will be heading to FGW

But as everything GW is using a 2 track railway from Maidenhead to Paddington with Crossrail using the slow lines, 110mph will reduced capacity for GW services.

 

[jon0844]

Two years from order placed until full fleet delivered for fleet of units using an existing design and different power collections from the last order. Hardly challenging.

How late were the 377/5s?

 

[swt_passenger]

But as everything GW is using a 2 track railway from Maidenhead to Paddington with Crossrail using the slow lines, 110mph will reduced capacity for GW services.

Where are you getting that from? GW will definitely be running on the reliefs, as will freight trains. That's why they are installing all those additional freight and passenger loops. There's nothing to support your belief that the reliefs will be reserved for Crossrail - and this has never been the case.

 

[JamesRowden]

But as everything GW is using a 2 track railway from Maidenhead to Paddington with Crossrail using the slow lines, 110mph will reduced capacity for GW services.

Where are you getting that from? GW will definitely be running on the reliefs, as will freight trains. That's why they are installing all those additional freight and passenger loops. There's nothing to support your belief that the reliefs will be reserved for Crossrail - and this has never been the case.

From the documents that I have read, Great Western Paddington-Reading stoppers (semi-fast between Paddington and Maidenhead) and peak only Slough-Reading stoppers (and the odd Bourne End and Henley services) will run along the relief lines with Crossrail.

The present Paddington-Oxford stoppers (2tph) will probably be converted into fast services east of Reading (using the new viaduct to avoid crossing mainline paths). A similar service will probably run on the Newbury line. These services will require non-intercity stock and 100 mph units would use up more capacity than 110 mph units.

 

[Class377/5]

How late were the 377/5s?

The first missed the deadline for the full fleet introduction (by a day) and the final one was a year late.

Where are you getting that from? GW will definitely be running on the reliefs, as will freight trains. That's why they are installing all those additional freight and passenger loops. There's nothing to support your belief that the reliefs will be reserved for Crossrail - and this has never been the case.

From the documents that I have read, Great Western Paddington-Reading stoppers will run along the relief lines with Crossrail.

The present Paddington-Oxford stoppers (2tph) will probably be converted into fast services east of Reading (using the new viaduct to avoid crossing mainline paths). A similar service will probably run on the Newbury line. These services will require non-intercity stock and 100 mph units would use up more capacity than 110 mph units.

Trying to find where I'd read that, might actually be from Airport junction not Maidenhead.

However the Reading to Paddington stoppers will become part of Crossrail not GW once the electrification works are completed, although not set in stone.

 

[swt_passenger]

However the Reading to Paddington stoppers will become part of Crossrail not GW once the electrification works are completed, although not set in stone.

Say's who? Certainly not Crossrail, who show the calling patterns on the reliefs for GW semi-fasts here:

Other operators’ services are assumed to be:

2 trains per hour from Reading calling at Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes & Harlington and Ealing Broadway to Paddington;
2 trains per hour from Reading calling at Twyford, Maidenhead, Taplow, Burnham and terminating at Slough;
1 through train from Henley on Thames to Paddington; and
1 through train from Bourne End to Paddington


http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/surface/western-section/

There's little point in posting stuff as fact if it's 'not set in stone'...

 

[JamesRowden]

Trying to find where I'd read that, might actually be from Airport junction not Maidenhead.

However the Reading to Paddington stoppers will become part of Crossrail not GW once the electrification works are completed, although not set in stone.

http://www.crossrailnews.co.uk/nav/timetable.php

 

[andyb2706]

However the Reading to Paddington stoppers will become part of Crossrail not GW once the electrification works are completed, although not set in stone.

That is news to me! I heard that the Heathrow Connect is to become part of Crossrail but not heard anything about the Reading to Paddington stopping service

 

[Stats]

The last I read was that Great Western had available 3 paths per hour in the peak and 2 paths per hour off-peak on the relief lines into Paddington post Crossrail.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But as everything GW is using a 2 track railway from Maidenhead to Paddington with Crossrail using the slow lines, 110mph will reduced capacity for GW services.

It is Network Rail who are suggesting that the rolling stock will need to be 110mph capable to optimise capacity.

 

[Goldfish62]

However the Reading to Paddington stoppers will become part of Crossrail not GW once the electrification works are completed, although not set in stone.

Alas, this is not true. Crossrail ends at Maidenhead and not a mile further. No stone is involved.:roll:

Modern Railways magazine confirms that GW services will effectively all(mostly) use the fast lines between Maidenhead and Paddington.

 

[tbtc]

The present Paddington-Oxford stoppers (2tph) will probably be converted into fast services east of Reading (using the new viaduct to avoid crossing mainline paths). A similar service will probably run on the Newbury line. These services will require non-intercity stock and 100 mph units would use up more capacity than 110 mph units.

Hopefully this can be timed to give four trains an hour from Paddington to Oxford (even if two of them are faster west of Reading)

 

[Class377/5]

Right Rail has an article on Crossrail and its Western end.

States that time is running out for the decision for Crossrail to reach Reading to be made. One of the problems is if Crossrail does terminate at Maidenhead then GW will need to run a Reading to Maidenhead shuttle service.

Reason for the time deadline is the Reading extension means 80% of the work planned for Maidenhead would no longer be required according to the article. Work is starting at Christmas.

 

[Manchester77]

So we can expect the DafT making a decision in January then?